Unfortunately (or fortunately), Stilley will probably have been disbarred before the criminal case gets to trial, so he will probably be past worrying about the ethical implications.wserra wrote:In addition, IIRC the charge is that these payments went to Springer from Stilley's escrow account. I don't see how Oscar can live with the idea that he is giving Springer "gifts" of escrow money.
Lindsey Springer & Oscar Stilley Indicted (Part 2)
-
- Trusted Keeper of the All True FAQ
- Posts: 5233
- Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2003 3:38 am
- Location: Earth
Re: Lindsey Springer & Oscar Stilley Indicted (Part 2)
Dan Evans
Foreman of the Unified Citizens' Grand Jury for Pennsylvania
(And author of the Tax Protester FAQ: evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html)
"Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
Foreman of the Unified Citizens' Grand Jury for Pennsylvania
(And author of the Tax Protester FAQ: evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html)
"Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
-
- Khedive Ismail Quatoosia
- Posts: 1209
- Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:19 pm
Re: Lindsey Springer & Oscar Stilley Indicted (Part 2)
Here's the gist of his argument, as taken from the "Brief".LPC wrote:Duberstein is a Supreme Court decision addressing the circumstances under which a transfer of property by a business to an individual might be a "gift" (and not income).05/15/2009 55 Third MOTION to Dismiss Indictment/Information/Complaint pursuant to CIR v. Duberstein (Re: 2 Indictment ) by Lindsey Kent Springer (Springer, Lindsey) (Entered: 05/15/2009)
05/15/2009 56 Third BRIEF in Support of Motion (Re: 55 Third MOTION to Dismiss Indictment/Information/Complaint pursuant to CIR v. Duberstein ) by Lindsey Kent Springer (Springer, Lindsey) (Entered: 05/15/2009)
I can see Springer arguing to the jury that the payments he received from Stilley were gifts and not income, and demanding an instruction from the judge on the issue, but I can't see how he can ask for a dismissal of the indictment for what is *at* *best* a factual issue for the jury.
“The conclusion whether a transfer amounts to a ‘gift’ is one that must be
reached on consideration of all the factors.” Commissioner v. Duberstein, 363 U.S.
278, 288 (1960) “Specifically, the trier of fact must be careful not to allow trial of the
issue whether the receipt of a specific payment is a gift to turn into a trial of the tax
liability.” Id.
Whether the liability is alleged that Springer was prohibited from impeding
lawful functions of the IRS in the computation, ascertainment, assessment or
collection of taxes, or whether he is alleged to be “required by law” to provide
information to the Internal Revenue Service on a U.S. Individual Income Tax Form
1040, or whether the alleged claims are that Springer owed a tax deficiency for
years 2000, 2003 and 2005, based upon some newly concluded construction of gifts
Springer is alleged to have received, each of the alleged crimes in each Count rely
almost solely upon whether the money received by Springer triggered a “liability”
Springer was then required to report or pay.
Before any determination can be made as to whether Springer has some
liability to report or pay, a determination must be made as to whether money
received by Springer was excludable from gross income as a “gift” or includable
as “gross income.”
Duberstein holds that the question as to whether money given Springer is a
“gift” or otherwise, must be decided by a non criminal trial first, and is NOT to be
decided in a trial determining any tax liability or tax consequence.
-
- Trusted Keeper of the All True FAQ
- Posts: 5233
- Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2003 3:38 am
- Location: Earth
Re: Lindsey Springer & Oscar Stilley Indicted (Part 2)
This is arrant nonsense, of course. The Duberstein decision was two appeals, one from a decision of the Tax Court and the other from a district court decision in a refund suit. The Supreme Court did not have a criminal case before it, and never said anything about any criminal trials or criminal proceedings.Duberstein holds that the question as to whether money given Springer is a
“gift” or otherwise, must be decided by a non criminal trial first,
WTF? Springer seems to be saying that the federal income tax consequences a transaction must be determined in a non-tax proceeding?and is NOT to be decided in a trial determining any tax liability or tax consequence.
He seems to be misconstruing, and taking out of context, a statement by the court that "the trier of fact must be careful not to allow trial of the issue whether the receipt of a specific payment is a gift to turn into a trial of the tax liability...." But the context is as follows:
363 U.S. at 287-288.Supreme Court wrote:The Government derives its test from such propositions as the following: That payments by an employer to an employee, even though voluntary, ought, by and large, to be taxable; that the concept of a gift is inconsistent with a payment's being a deductible business expense; that a gift involves "personal" elements; that a business corporation cannot properly make a gift of its assets. [...] The taxing statute does not make nondeductibility by the transferor a condition on the "gift" exclusion; nor does it draw any distinction, in terms, between transfers by corporations and individuals, as to the availability of the "gift" exclusion to the transferee. The conclusion whether a transfer amounts to a "gift" is one that must be reached on consideration of all the factors.
Specifically, the trier of fact must be careful not to allow trial of the issue whether the receipt of a specific payment is a gift to turn into a trial of the tax liability, or of the propriety, as a matter of fiduciary or corporate law, attaching to the conduct of someone else. The major corollary to the Government's suggested "test" is that, as an ordinary matter, a payment by a corporation cannot be a gift, and, more specifically, there can be no such thing as a "gift" made by a corporation which would allow it to take a deduction for an ordinary and necessary business expense.
In context, it is clear that the Supreme Court was stating that the deduction (or deductibility) of the payor is not necessarily determinative of the income for the payee.
Dan Evans
Foreman of the Unified Citizens' Grand Jury for Pennsylvania
(And author of the Tax Protester FAQ: evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html)
"Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
Foreman of the Unified Citizens' Grand Jury for Pennsylvania
(And author of the Tax Protester FAQ: evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html)
"Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
Re: Lindsey Springer & Oscar Stilley Indicted (Part 2)
wserra wrote:In addition, IIRC the charge is that these payments went to Springer from Stilley's escrow account. I don't see how Oscar can live with the idea that he is giving Springer "gifts" of escrow money.LPC wrote:I can see Springer arguing to the jury that the payments he received from Stilley were gifts and not income, and demanding an instruction from the judge on the issue, but I can't see how he can ask for a dismissal of the indictment for what is *at* *best* a factual issue for the jury.
Politicians do it all the time.
Does that qualify Oscar and Lindsey as "politicians"? lol
Tell me why they aren't treated equally in the eyes of the law?
-
- Quatloosian Federal Witness
- Posts: 7565
- Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 6:39 pm
Re: Lindsey Springer & Oscar Stilley Indicted (Part 2)
It's hard to know where to begin with stuff like this.GoldandSilverEagles wrote:Politicians do it all the time.
Does that qualify Oscar and Lindsey as "politicians"? lol
Tell me why they aren't treated equally in the eyes of the law?
Perhaps you could start by telling me the purpose for which you believe politicians use escrow accounts.
"A wise man proportions belief to the evidence."
- David Hume
- David Hume
-
- Asst Secretary, the Dept of Jesters
- Posts: 1767
- Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:20 pm
- Location: Yuba City, CA
Re: Lindsey Springer & Oscar Stilley Indicted (Part 2)
To pay the judges hush money for keeping the real truth about the income tax from the American people, of course.wserra wrote: It's hard to know where to begin with stuff like this.
Perhaps you could start by telling me the purpose for which you believe politicians use escrow accounts.
The laissez-faire argument relies on the same tacit appeal to perfection as does communism. - George Soros
Re: Lindsey Springer & Oscar Stilley Indicted (Part 2)
To the best of my knowledge, politicians use them B4 and after elections. They use escrow accounts to manage their campaign contributions. This account is used for advertising, travel, payment of campaign employees, and other campaign related expenses that require strict accounting, in addition to what the doktor offered...lol .wserra wrote:It's hard to know where to begin with stuff like this.GoldandSilverEagles wrote:Politicians do it all the time.
Does that qualify Oscar and Lindsey as "politicians"? lol
Tell me why they aren't treated equally in the eyes of the law?
Perhaps you could start by telling me the purpose for which you believe politicians use escrow accounts.
Re: Lindsey Springer & Oscar Stilley Indicted (Part 2)
WW will be grasping more rugged rods behind bars than he could ever imagine.Judge Roy Bean wrote:The only thing you're going to ever be able to grasp behind bars is the ol' rugged rod of remorse.
Re: Lindsey Springer & Oscar Stilley Indicted (Part 2)
It's fortunate that the post was prefaced by the highlighted words. Otherwise, the appropriate response would have been "Wrong, wronger, wrongest."GoldandSilverEagles wrote:To the best of my knowledge, politicians use them B4 and after elections. They use escrow accounts to manage their campaign contributions. This account is used for advertising, travel, payment of campaign employees, and other campaign related expenses that require strict accounting, in addition to what the doktor offered...lol .
Instead it is sufficient to state that the poster has inadequate knowledge of both escrow accounts and the accounting for political campaign income and expenses.
Re: Lindsey Springer & Oscar Stilley Indicted (Part 2)
My info came from a good friend who operated in the capacity of a finance manager for a political campaign.Nikki wrote:It's fortunate that the post was prefaced by the highlighted words. Otherwise, the appropriate response would have been "Wrong, wronger, wrongest."GoldandSilverEagles wrote:To the best of my knowledge, politicians use them B4 and after elections. They use escrow accounts to manage their campaign contributions. This account is used for advertising, travel, payment of campaign employees, and other campaign related expenses that require strict accounting, in addition to what the doktor offered...lol .
Instead it is sufficient to state that the poster has inadequate knowledge of both escrow accounts and the accounting for political campaign income and expenses.
Re: Lindsey Springer & Oscar Stilley Indicted (Part 2)
Perhaps you should get back together with your friend and listen to what he (she) is actually saying instead of applying your own layer of misunderstanding to your miscomprehensio0n of his (her) words.GoldandSilverEagles wrote:My info came from a good friend who operated in the capacity of a finance manager for a political campaign.
-
- Asst Secretary, the Dept of Jesters
- Posts: 1767
- Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:20 pm
- Location: Yuba City, CA
Re: Lindsey Springer & Oscar Stilley Indicted (Part 2)
So what are their names again? Chainsaw, Porkchop, Bubba and....?silversopp wrote:WW will be grasping more rugged rods behind bars than he could ever imagine.Judge Roy Bean wrote:The only thing you're going to ever be able to grasp behind bars is the ol' rugged rod of remorse.
The laissez-faire argument relies on the same tacit appeal to perfection as does communism. - George Soros
Re: Lindsey Springer & Oscar Stilley Indicted (Part 2)
I relayed your feed-back/opinions to my friend and they feel that, apparently you've never dealt with a political campaign and that any further opinions from you, on this topic, should be ignored.Nikki wrote:Perhaps you should get back together with your friend and listen to what he (she) is actually saying instead of applying your own layer of misunderstanding to your miscomprehensio0n of his (her) words.GoldandSilverEagles wrote:My info came from a good friend who operated in the capacity of a finance manager for a political campaign.
-
- Enchanted Consultant of the Red Stapler
- Posts: 1808
- Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:23 pm
- Location: Formerly in a cubicle by the window where I could see the squirrels, and they were married.
Re: Lindsey Springer & Oscar Stilley Indicted (Part 2)
What did the other voices in your head say?GoldandSilverEagles wrote:I relayed your feed-back/opinions to my friend and they feel that, apparently you've never dealt with a political campaign and that any further opinions from you, on this topic, should be ignored.Nikki wrote:Perhaps you should get back together with your friend and listen to what he (she) is actually saying instead of applying your own layer of misunderstanding to your miscomprehensio0n of his (her) words.GoldandSilverEagles wrote:My info came from a good friend who operated in the capacity of a finance manager for a political campaign.
"Some people are like Slinkies ... not really good for anything, but you can't help smiling when you see one tumble down the stairs" - Unknown
Re: Lindsey Springer & Oscar Stilley Indicted (Part 2)
I relayed your feed-back/opinions to my friend and they feel that, apparently you've never dealt with a political campaign and that any further opinions from you, on this topic, should be ignored.Perhaps you should get back together with your friend and listen to what he (she) is actually saying instead of applying your own layer of misunderstanding to your miscomprehensio0n of his (her) words.
Btw...next time use spell check...i.e. "miscomprehensio0n"
In regards to you, that misery loves company.What did the other voices in your head say?
Furthermore, **If** you are on this forum while on your employers time, **then** get your a$$ back to work and quit $$$ wasting $$$ your employers "money"!
-
- Trusted Keeper of the All True FAQ
- Posts: 5233
- Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2003 3:38 am
- Location: Earth
Re: Lindsey Springer & Oscar Stilley Indicted (Part 2)
Well, that sure narrows it down. Politicians use escrow accounts before and after elections, but not during elections?GoldandSilverEagles wrote:To the best of my knowledge, politicians use them B4 and after elections.wserra wrote:Perhaps you could start by telling me the purpose for which you believe politicians use escrow accounts.
Escrow is a legal concept and a legal relationship, not a management tool or an accounting method. (I'm also curious about the campaign expenses that require sloppy accounting instead of strict accounting.)GoldandSilverEagles wrote:They use escrow accounts to manage their campaign contributions. This account is used for advertising, travel, payment of campaign employees, and other campaign related expenses that require strict accounting, in addition to what the doktor offered...lol .
If what you say is true, then both you and your friend have never dealt with an escrow account and any further opinions from you, on this topic, should be ignored.GoldandSilverEagles wrote:I relayed your feed-back/opinions to my friend and they feel that, apparently you've never dealt with a political campaign and that any further opinions from you, on this topic, should be ignored.Perhaps you should get back together with your friend and listen to what he (she) is actually saying instead of applying your own layer of misunderstanding to your miscomprehensio0n of his (her) words.
Dan Evans
Foreman of the Unified Citizens' Grand Jury for Pennsylvania
(And author of the Tax Protester FAQ: evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html)
"Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
Foreman of the Unified Citizens' Grand Jury for Pennsylvania
(And author of the Tax Protester FAQ: evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html)
"Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
Re: Lindsey Springer & Oscar Stilley Indicted (Part 2)
Dan:
Please stop giving away the punch line (rational definition of escrow and its use).
It takes all the fun away from tweaking the trolls.
Please stop giving away the punch line (rational definition of escrow and its use).
It takes all the fun away from tweaking the trolls.
Re: Lindsey Springer & Oscar Stilley Indicted (Part 2)
My friend says sorry that they gave a rather vague explanation.. didn't know what type of people they were going to be dealing with.... should have given a much more detailed explanation for people who don't have a clue what they are talking about.
And yes, I meant before, during and after a campaign... guess I thought you could figure that out for yourself.. my mistake.
And FYI:
Escrow account: special bank account into which escrow monies are deposited and from which they are disbursed. Lawyers, politicians, and real estate brokers maintain escrow accounts to hold money in trust.
And yes, I meant before, during and after a campaign... guess I thought you could figure that out for yourself.. my mistake.
And FYI:
Escrow account: special bank account into which escrow monies are deposited and from which they are disbursed. Lawyers, politicians, and real estate brokers maintain escrow accounts to hold money in trust.