Freedom to Fascism on PBS last night

[SteveSy]

So you think its stupid, you know what I'm absolutely sure a lot of people would think the lengths you guys go to slash and burn anyone questioning the validity of income taxes and thereby support the IRS is repulsive also.

Why would I care what tax cheats think?

Here's a clue, I doubt many people care what you think about TP's either....well, except those wanting the money.

[Demosthenes]

Here's a clue, I doubt many people care what you think about TP's either....well, except those wanting the money.

They sure enjoy the stories at dinner parties...

You just can't beat a warmup line like, "Once upon a time, there was a long haul trucker named Gene. He wore a toga, and thought he was the reincarnation of both Gandhi and Christ. One day, Gene decided to blow up a government building."

[Lasagna]

Have any of you actually watched the movie? It wouldn't surprise me if none of you have watched it completely but insist on offering your comments as to its contents. If any of you actually have please identify where is advocates fraud. The movie merely asks a lot of questions that seemingly have answers contrary to popular belief. At no point does it advocate not paying taxes or not filing.

Yes, I've seen the movie - it's crap. Those questions he asks have been shredded over and over again.

As much as I [sarcasm]hate[/sarcasm] to disagree with you, Steve, that movie does indeed advocate non-payment or non-filing of taxes by starting from the premise there is no law requiring you to do either.

Whatever....that's like saying that if someone says the war on terror is illegal it advocates running off to Canada instead of showing up for military transport to Iraq.

Using your logic you couldn't say the government does anything wrong otherwise you're advocating to violate the law in which you believe the government is misrepresenting or misapplying. You guys lose all sense of reasoning when it comes to trying to shut down people who disagree with the government concerning the legality of collecting some taxes. It's funny how you bash TP's for their silly logic and then you resort to using absurd logic to condemn TP's.

As I've always said, this group is just as bad as the worst of TP's you're just on the other side of the fence. You're both fringe lunatics.

God almighty, Steve. You really have trouble with logic.

FtF claims that there is no law requiring citizens to pay federal income tax. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that U.S. citizens do not have to pay income tax. Saying that the war in Iraq is "illegal" is not the same thing as saying "there is no law requiring the payment of income tax." It is illegal to break into a person's home and smash their television set. There is no law that prevents you from smashing your own television set, therefore you can do that any time you want. You have to be able to see the difference in these statements.

Nobody here is arguing that advocating that the government is "wrong" in imposing a federal income tax is the same as advocating that citizens should refuse to pay that income tax. Therefore, your stupid statement that, according to us, people can't "say the government does anything wrong otherwise you're advocating to violate the law" is nonsense. We are saying that by incorrectly telling people that there is no law requiring them to pay income tax, you are therefore telling them THAT THEY DO NOT HAVE TO PAY INCOME TAX. It isn't possible for this to be any more clear. I refuse to believe that you don't understand this fundamental difference, because I choose to cling to the hope that you aren't that dumb. You are intentionally refusing to understand the positions being advocated here, even though they are incredibly clear.

[SteveSy]

God almighty, Steve. You really have trouble with logic.

No, that's clearly your problem.

Yes, whoever watches Russo's film is going to think about not filing even though he makes it clear people go to prison. Yeah....

[The Observer]

Yes, whoever watches Russo's film is going to think about not filing even though he makes it clear people go to prison. Yeah....

Except that he spins that by the implication that these people are being wrongfully imprisoned. Stop being intellectually dishonest, Steve.

[Famspear]

Yes, whoever watches Russo's film is going to think about not filing even though he makes it clear people go to prison. Yeah....

Steve, your "whoever" comment is just another petulant, sarcastic, and ineffective retort thrown out in an attempt to mischaracterize the nature of the debate. Many people who have seen the film have recognized it for the hogwash that it is -- and have no intention of embracing Russo's goofy, criminal, nutjob agenda. So, your "whoever" comment misses the mark.

However, the fact is that many, many tax protesters have cited the Russo film in postings on the internet, over and over and over, and have clearly indicated that this is a film they are using to support their agenda of criminality. And it's useless for you to try to deny it, because I have seen this myself, personally, on countless occasions. The two things -- watching the Russo film, and refusing to obey the tax law -- are clearly connected in the minds of those people. Tax protesters adore this film (and it's easy to see why).

Now, yes, it is likely that the vast majority of those people were tax protesters even before they saw the film. So, we could certainly agree (or reasonably disagree) about the extent to which Russo is just "preaching to the choir," so to speak. In other words, how much damage has his film really done? Are most of the film's adherents already too far gone anyway? Etc., etc.

Anyway, Steve, you seem to be struggling and straining over and over to find any loopy argument you can to support Russo and his film.

Just my personal opinion.

[SteveSy]

Anyway, Steve, you seem to be struggling and straining over and over to find any loopy argument you can to support Russo and his film.

Just my personal opinion.

I'm not supporting Russo's film. It's free speech...I hated Moore's film on the war and his totally out of context, snipped together quotes. I didn't go out trying to get it removed from public view simply because it basically lied throughout the entire show. He has a right to speak as he wishes as disgusting as it was.

All you're doing is hiding under the premise that the film will somehow incite people to commit illegal acts when that's just hogwash, a very lame attempt to shut someone up who you disagree with. Thankfully people like you will get little mileage concerning his film with the public otherwise any speech against government could be shutdown using the same lame logic.

I always wondered how fascist regimes can be allowed to achieve so much power....after being here for several years I know see how its possible. You think you're doing good when in fact all you're doing is prying open a door that allows much more than what you agree with. Chavez is a perfect example of how people like you are manipulated in to screwing themselves. Some people learn nothing from history....

[Demosthenes]

He has a right to speak as he wishes as disgusting as it was.

And PBS has a right not to air it.

And I have a right to ask PBS (an org I send lots of money to each year) to act responsibly and not air it.

PBS is not a government agency looking to shut Russo up. Waving your hands around while yelling censorship does not make it so.

[Duke2Earl]

The problem seems to be that to many "true believers" in a cause, if they believe something is wrong... so very and profoundly "wrong"... then it just MUST be illegal. They are entirely unable to separate political and legal issues. To Steve and others the entire concept of an income tax is simply wrong on many levels and they feel this to the marrow of their bones. They feel this so strongly they are also unable to even comprehend that others could see it differently. It is so clear to them that they think that others couldn't actually disagree with them but rather must be stupid or corrupt. And unfortunately this leads almost invariably to a type of intellectual blindness to reality. And blindness to reality usually ends up costing the sufferer bigtime.

And also unfortunately this type of blindness to reality afflicts true believers in most every cause... not just taxes.

[Quixote]

It's telling that the highest bar Steve can set that FTF can clear is that the film does not explicitly advocate committing a crime. I would hope that any PBS station would have a somewhat higher standard of programming quality.

[Famspear]

Steve wrote:

All you're doing is hiding under the premise that the film will somehow incite people to commit illegal acts when that's just hogwash, a very lame attempt to shut someone up who you disagree with.

No, you're wrong. First, the film almost certainly will (or has already) incited some people (probably and hopefully only a few people) who were already leaning that way into criminal tax activity. So, your implication -- that the film does not incite at least some people to commit illegal acts -- is wrong.

Second, I'm not trying to "shut someone up." I'm not trying to stop the viewing of the film. So, your comment comes across as another ineffective, tangential statement -- a statement falsely accusing others in an ineffectual attempt to divert attention from the weakness of your arguments.

Thankfully people like you will get little mileage concerning his film with the public otherwise any speech against government could be shutdown using the same lame logic.

Again, completely off base, Steve. This is not about "shutting down" what you call "speech against government." Indeed, even assuming that Russo's film is really "speech against government," that is not what makes the film's message objectionable. This is about discussion of the falsehoods in Russo's film, about his motivation for making the film, about the effects of the film, and so on.

Your comment about "speech against government" is telling, though. It illustrates that this is the way you view tax protester arguments -- as "speech against government". And my impression is that the vast majority of tax protesters really have, as their motivation for embracing tax protesters arguments, the desire to be anti-government.

There is nothing wrong with "being" anti-government in a general sense. What is wrong -- and what is intellectually dishonest -- is to use one's anti-government feelings or beliefs as a motivation for espousing or embracing meritless (and worse, legally frivolous) arguments about the very nature of the law itself.

[Lasagna]

I'm not supporting Russo's film. It's free speech...I hated Moore's film on the war and his totally out of context, snipped together quotes. I didn't go out trying to get it removed from public view simply because it basically lied throughout the entire show. He has a right to speak as he wishes as disgusting as it was.

All you're doing is hiding under the premise that the film will somehow incite people to commit illegal acts when that's just hogwash, a very lame attempt to shut someone up who you disagree with. Thankfully people like you will get little mileage concerning his film with the public otherwise any speech against government could be shutdown using the same lame logic.

I always wondered how fascist regimes can be allowed to achieve so much power....after being here for several years I know see how its possible. You think you're doing good when in fact all you're doing is prying open a door that allows much more than what you agree with. Chavez is a perfect example of how people like you are manipulated in to screwing themselves. Some people learn nothing from history....

This is getting completely ridiculous. You have GOT to be aware that nobody has suggested that the government criminalize the viewing of FtF. Yet you turn this discussion to censorship. All anyone has said is that (1) the film is garbage, which is likely to cause many of the people who take it seriously to ruin their lives, and (2) it's surprising that PBS (or anyone else, for that matter) would air something this demonstrably dumb. Nobody has suggested that he not be allowed to make it, or that people not be allowed to watch it.

This kind of misinterpretation of free speech just makes me impatient. Russo has the right to create, and try to have aired, his nonsense. I have the right to point out what utter trash it is. I am under zero obligation to respect him or his point of view. Treating his silly film with disdain does not mean that I look down on all criticism of the government. This is stuff you should know, Steve. It's elementary.

You have nicely managed to divert the conversation away from anything of substance, though. Good show.

[LOBO]

Here's a clue, I doubt many people care what you think about TP's either.

I'm guessing they care if they show up here.

....well, except those wanting the money.

The same laws that you complain about that impose the tax also allow deductions, expenses and credits to lower, or even eliminate that liability. If the government really "wanted the money" they would eliminate those laws.

[Cpt Banjo]

Talk about throwing money away. Why give money to the decrepit fools at PBS when superior alternatives such as History Channel, Discovery Channel, The Learning Channel, etc. exist?

With the advent of cable and satellite television, I can't remember the last time I watched anything on PBS (you see one doo-wop show, you've seen 'em all). The main argument for PBS has been that it would air programs that other stations wouldn't, but that certainly isn't the case now. So is the only reason to keep its government support going the fact that many people can't afford cable and satellite channels? And is that enough of a reason, given that most of the PBS programming appeals to those who can afford pay TV?

[Demosthenes]

Masterpiece Theatre? Nova? News Hours with Jim Lehrer? American Masters? The Civil War documentary by Ken Burns?

Nothing?

Neanderthals.

[Demosthenes]

The Civil War is but one Ken Burns / PBS work.

http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/

[Cpt Banjo]

Masterpiece Theatre? Nova? News Hours with Jim Lehrer? American Masters? The Civil War documentary by Ken Burns?

Nothing?

Neanderthals.

Nobody has claimed that PBS doesn't offer good programming, but over the years the cable/satellite channels have begun offering programming that's just as good and many times better than what PBS has to offer. I used to think the finest drama series I'd ever seen on television was I, Claudius, but after seeing The Wire, I'm not so sure (yes, one is highbrow and has actors with British accents, while the other takes place in the 'hood and features dialogue that's occasionally so hard to understand that I had to put on the close captioning, but leave us not be snobby about these things).

I wonder -- if PBS were to vanish, wouldn't much of their programming be purchased by other channels, such as Ovation, The History Channel, The Science Channel, and National Geographic Channel? Or are there industry economics that I'm not comprehending?

[ASITStands]

And let us not forget the Red Green Show.

The best show on television! And, just about the only reason to watch the tube.

[grixit]

In the trunk of my car, I keep a roll of duct tape, a hammer, a pair of pliers and a screwdriver.

How long have you and Webhick been dating?

[Doktor Avalanche]

Whatever....that's like saying that if someone says the war on terror is illegal it advocates running off to Canada instead of showing up for military transport to Iraq.

Using your logic you couldn't say the government does anything wrong otherwise you're advocating to violate the law in which you believe the government is misrepresenting or misapplying. You guys lose all sense of reasoning when it comes to trying to shut down people who disagree with the government concerning the legality of collecting some taxes. It's funny how you bash TP's for their silly logic and then you resort to using absurd logic to condemn TP's.

As I've always said, this group is just as bad as the worst of TP's you're just on the other side of the fence. You're both fringe lunatics.

Pardon me, Steve, but what the *%#@ are you blathering on about?

You truly are dense. I said no such thing.

All I said that Russo's movie was a pile of crap (which is my opinion) and that it starts from the premise that there is no law requiring you to file or pay your taxes (which is a fact).

It's painfully obvious that you have never seen the movie before.