Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

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SteveSy

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by SteveSy »

Quixote wrote:
So how is it in its nature an excise?
I knew you'd start back pedalling. We have all agreed that the Brushaber Court said that taxation on income is in its nature an excise. Unless you disagree with the Court, that matter is settled.
I agree it is in its nature an excise, now please tell me how your idea of what an income tax can tax falls within the definition of an excise? Let me guess, in your twisted world, the Supreme Court placed income taxes in the definition by using the phrase "in its nature an excise". I would also assume that when someone tells you wild carnivorous animals are in their nature aggressive you assume the animal is being added to the definition of aggressive instead of concluding the wild carnivorous animals have the quality of characteristic of being aggressive. :roll:
Last edited by SteveSy on Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Dr. Caligari
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Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Dr. Caligari »

Yes, I've seen that case....

I can not dispute what it said, all I can say is no definition ever known of an excise has included the mere transfer of property in general or any transactions whatsoever.
Didn't the Supreme Court once define an "excise" as a tax on a "transaction or event"? Income taxes perfectly fit that definition.
Dr. Caligari
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SteveSy

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by SteveSy »

Dr. Caligari wrote:
Yes, I've seen that case....

I can not dispute what it said, all I can say is no definition ever known of an excise has included the mere transfer of property in general or any transactions whatsoever.
Didn't the Supreme Court once define an "excise" as a tax on a "transaction or event"? Income taxes perfectly fit that definition.
I don't recall a definition like that. I do recall a case saying a transaction or event is taxable with an excise. Like I said though that is so broad it destroys any meaning or rule offered by the direct tax clause. Everything has an "event" or is involved in some sort of "transaction" on a daily basis. I mean its laughable to imagine the colonists agreeing to such a power under the head of indirect taxation. The government could control and tax anything and everything with that power.
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Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Quixote »

I agree it is in its nature an excise, now please tell me how your idea of what an income tax can tax falls within the definition of an excise?
My idea of what an income tax taxes? Income, of course. That's what an income tax is, a tax on income. The Brushaber Court was more careful, using the phrase "taxation on income" to make it perfectly clear what they meant.

An income tax is in its nature an excise, so what an income tax taxes, i.e., income, is in its nature something that falls within the set of things that can be taxed by an excise. If it were not, income taxes would not be in their nature excises.
Let me guess, in your ... world, the Supreme Court placed income taxes in the definition by using the phrase "in its nature an excise".
If you mean that I believe that by writing that "taxation on income is in its nature an excise" the Supreme Court clarified that income taxes were in the set of taxes that were in their nature an excise, you would be right.
"Here is a fundamental question to ask yourself- what is the goal of the income tax scam? I think it is a means to extract wealth from the masses and give it to a parasite class." Skankbeat
Paul

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Paul »

No event or transaction is involved in a head tax or an ad valorem property tax.

Besides, all you're doing is arguing that the Brushaber court was wrong when it said that taxation on income itself (not taxation on income from business, or earned by a corporation, or any other qualification) is by nature an excise. If you win that argument, you've shot down the court's conclusion about the effect of the 16th Amendment because the court stated no other basis for that conclusion. Then all you're left with is the 16th Amendment which says no apportionment is needed for a tax on income.
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Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Judge Roy Bean »

Things were interesting enough to actually read until this, Steve:
I would also assume that when someone tells you wild carnivorous animals are in their nature aggressive you assume the animal is being added to the definition of aggressive instead of concluding the wild carnivorous animals have the quality of characteristic of being aggressive.
"The quality of characteristic of being aggressive" is a phraseology so tortured that it undermines your attempt at a viable analogy.

Was that supposed to be "characteristic or" instead of "characteristic of?"

It appears you are attempting to posit that there is no formally recognized delineation of "aggression" in the scientific order. That is true - that label construct is behavioral.

But what the hell does that have to do with your argument? The analogy fails me.
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Nikki

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Nikki »

SteveSy wrote:Being alive does require transactions, take your pick, you've then avoided the requirement to apportion the tax by calling it another name. Owning property requires transactions take your pick you've then avoided the requirement to apportion the tax by calling it another name.

"Transaction" has a very broad meaning.
BEING alive (existing at a point in time in the state of aliveness) does not require any transactions. STAYING alive (maintaining that state of aliveness for some extended period of time) does require certain actions, none of which necessarily fall into the general class of things which we would call transactions.

Is there any transaction involved in breathing, in drinking water from a stream, or from foraging root vegetables in the rain forest? I think not.

Owning property does not require any transactions at all, once it has been acquired. Even if we reduce the definition of "property" to the class of taxable real estate, merely continuing to own it requires absolutely nothing other than paying real estate taxes. If you want to call paying taxes "transactions," then so be it. However, to the majority of the English-speaking world, paying a tax is not a transaction in hte sense under discussion.
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Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Quixote »

Dr. Caligari wrote:
Yes, I've seen that case....

I can not dispute what it said, all I can say is no definition ever known of an excise has included the mere transfer of property in general or any transactions whatsoever.
Didn't the Supreme Court once define an "excise" as a tax on a "transaction or event"? Income taxes perfectly fit that definition.
I think you'll find that the Supreme Court has never defined "excise". They have cited definitions they liked, but in the same opinions gave examples of excises that did not meet the cited definitions, clearly showing that the definitions were not complete.
"Here is a fundamental question to ask yourself- what is the goal of the income tax scam? I think it is a means to extract wealth from the masses and give it to a parasite class." Skankbeat
SteveSy

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by SteveSy »

Nikki wrote:
SteveSy wrote:Being alive does require transactions, take your pick, you've then avoided the requirement to apportion the tax by calling it another name. Owning property requires transactions take your pick you've then avoided the requirement to apportion the tax by calling it another name.

"Transaction" has a very broad meaning.
BEING alive (existing at a point in time in the state of aliveness) does not require any transactions. STAYING alive (maintaining that state of aliveness for some extended period of time) does require certain actions, none of which necessarily fall into the general class of things which we would call transactions.
So there is no transaction taking place when you get food or shelter? Good luck trying to live your life this day and age, or even during the colonial period, without ever using or being involved in a transaction.
Is there any transaction involved in breathing, in drinking water from a stream, or from foraging root vegetables in the rain forest? I think not.
We have a rain forest? Even if we were to accept that premise do you believe the colonists meant to draw the direct tax clause so tightly and the indirect tax clause so loosely that what you listed above is all that we could do to avoid being taxed? Of course this avoids the fact that finding such a place to reside free of charge is nearly impossible.
Owning property does not require any transactions at all, once it has been acquired. Even if we reduce the definition of "property" to the class of taxable real estate, merely continuing to own it requires absolutely nothing other than paying real estate taxes.

Right, real property includes houses. Are you honestly going to sit there and say you can own a house without ever purchasing anything? Simply paying property taxes requires a transaction and as far as I know there are no states that do not have a property tax.

If you want to call paying taxes "transactions," then so be it. However, to the majority of the English-speaking world, paying a tax is not a transaction in hte sense under discussion.
Right, and in the English speaking world just 100 years ago interstate commerce didn't include everything within intrastate commerce either but it does now. If the courts can squint their eyes enough to find things like "Substantive Due Process" or "transactions" and "events" within the definition of an excise anything is possible once you open the door.
Nikki

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Nikki »

Mr Imprecise wrote:Right, real property includes houses. Are you honestly going to sit there and say you can own a house without ever purchasing anything? Simply paying property taxes requires a transaction and as far as I know there are no states that do not have a property tax.
Tsk, tsk. Only SOME real property includes houses. Some, like my undeveloped lake-front land doesn't.

Again, you are getting out the rubber bands to stretch things to fit your needs.

Some developed real property, such as certain automotive assembly plants, churches and similar houses of worship, and some not-for-profit hospitals do not pay any property taxes.

As to your comment about living, I don't recall your predicating it on a particular place and time.

Don't make broad, overreaching statements. They are guaranteed to have holes in them.
Paul

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Paul »

So there is no transaction taking place when you get food or shelter?
But they're not taxing you on those transactions. Just like the Brushaber court did NOT hold that the tax on income was an excise because the taxpayer in that case happened to be a corporation.

And why are you arguing that Brushaber was wrong when your understanding that the 16th Amendment doesn't mean exactly what it says is based on Brushaber?
Famspear
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Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Famspear »

Wow, I disappear for just a few hours, and the thread grows by leaps and bounds!

Steve, earlier in this thread you said:
I noticed in the other thread you [Famspear] said [that Frank] Brushaber made the erroneous assumption, it appears to me Bittker made the same assumption. It seems very clear to me the Supreme Court specifically stated this reasoning was "erroneous" and "would create radical and destructive changes in our constitutional system".
What were you talking about here? Specifically, what was the erroneous assumption (in your own words) that Frank Brushaber made, and why do you think Professor Bittker made the same "assumption"?

This is not a trick question; I just don't know what you're referring to here. (I think you must be confused, though -- either on some point about what Bittker wrote, or on something in the text of the case.)
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Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Famspear »

This might help.

With my own clarifications in brackets, I would point out that the Supreme Court noted that Frank Brushaber's propositions were...
so intermingled as to cause it to be difficult to classify them. We [The Court} are of opinion, however, that the confusion [by Frank Brushaber] is not inherent, but rather arises from the [erroneous] conclusion [by Mr. Brushaber] that the 16th Amendment provides for a hitherto unknown power of taxation; that is, [the erroneous assumption that the 16th Amendment itself grants] a power to levy an income tax which, although direct, should not be subject to the regulation of apportionment applicable to all other direct taxes.

And the far-reaching effect of this erroneous assumption [by Mr. Brushaber] will be made clear by generalizing the many contentions advanced [by Frank Brushaber] in argument to support it, as follows:

(a) [Frank Brushaber erroneously argues that] The Amendment authorizes only a particular character of direct tax without apportionment, and therefore if a tax is levied under its assumed authority which does not partake of the characteristics exacted by the Amendment, it is outside of the Amendment, and is void as a direct tax in the general constitutional sense because not apportioned. [erroneous]

(b) [Frank Brushaber erroneously argues that] As the Amendment authorizes a tax only upon incomes 'from whatever source derived,' the exclusion from taxation of some income of designated persons and classes is not authorized, and hence the constitutionality of the law must be tested by the general provisions of the Constitution as to taxation, and thus again the tax is void for want of apportionment. [erroneous] [In other words, Frank Brushaber argues that for a tax statute to be valid, it must not provide any exclusion of income of any person or class or persons. Frank Brushaber argues that for an income tax to be valid under the Amendment, it must tax all income from whatever source derived by all taxpayers, with no exceptions. Frank Brushaber argues that if an income tax law does not tax all income from whatever source without any exclusions, etc., then that tax cannot be judged by the Amendment, and must be judged by the original provisions of the Constitution and must therefore be apportioned to be valid and, since the tax is not apportioned, the tax must be invalid]

(c) [Frank Brushaber erroneously argues that] As the right to tax 'incomes from whatever source derived' for which the Amendment provides must be considered as exacting intrinsic uniformity, therefore no tax comes under the authority of the Amendment not conforming to such standard, and hence all the provisions of the assailed statute must once more be tested solely under the general and pre-existing provisions of the Constitution, causing the statute again to be void in the absence of apportionment. [erroneous] [Frank Brushaber erroneously argues that Sixteenth Amendment power requires intrinsic uniformity, not merely geographical uniformity, and that therefore all the provisions of the tax statute must be judged by the Amendment, and must be judged by the original provisions of the Constitution and must therefore be apportioned to be valid and, since the tax is not apportioned, the tax must be invalid.]

(d) [Frank Brushaber erroneously argues that] As the power conferred by the Amendment is new and prospective, the attempt in the statute to make its provisions retroactively apply is void because, so far as the retroactive period is concerned, it is governed by the pre-existing constitutional requirement as to apportionment. [erroneous] [Frank Brushaber argues that the statute’s retroactive provisions are invalid because the Amendment is new and prospective, and the statute must be governed by the original provisions of the Constitution and must therefore be apportioned to be valid and, since the tax is not apportioned, the tax must be invalid.]

But it clearly results that the proposition [by Frank Brushaber] and the [above listed erroneous] contentions under it [i.e., under Mr. Frank Brushaber’s proposition], if acceded to, would [incorrectly] cause one provision of the Constitution to destroy another; that is, they [Mr. Frank Brushaber’s erroneous contentions] would result in bringing the provisions of the Amendment exempting a direct tax from apportionment into irreconcilable conflict with the general requirement that all direct taxes be apportioned. Moreover, the tax [supposedly] authorized by the Amendment, being [supposedly] direct, would not come under the rule of uniformity applicable under the Constitution to [taxes] other than direct taxes, and thus it would [supposedly] come to pass [under Frank Brushaber's theory] that the result of the Amendment would be to authorize a particular direct tax not subject either to apportionment or to the rule of geographical uniformity, thus giving power to impose a different tax in one state or states than was levied in another state or states. This [erroneous] result, instead of simplifying the situation and making clear the limitations on the taxing power, which obviously the Amendment must have been intended to accomplish, would create radical and destructive changes in our constitutional system and multiply confusion.

But let us[,] by a demonstration of the error of the fundamental proposition [by Mr. Brushaber] as to the significance of the Amendment[,] dispel the confusion necessarily arising from the arguments [by Frank Brushaber] deduced from it.


[ . . . ]

In fact, the two great subdivisions [that is, direct taxes, and excises (or indirect taxes)] embracing the complete and perfect delegation of the power to tax and the two correlated limitations [apportionment for direct taxes, and geographical uniformity for indirect taxes] as to such power were thus aptly stated by Mr. Chief Justice Fuller in Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & T. Co. 157 U. S. supra, at page 557: 'In the matter of taxation, the Constitution recognizes the two great classes of direct and indirect taxes, and lays down two rules by which their imposition must be governed, namely: The rule of apportionment as to direct taxes, and the rule of uniformity as to duties, imposts, and excises.'
If I recall correctly, some tax protesters have argued that the holdings in Brushaber and other cases somehow cannot be the law because the Court was concerned about one provision of the Constitution destroying another. In some cases, the argument seems to be that an income tax is a direct tax and that the Sixteenth Amendment cannot modify the original text of the Constitution (requiring apportionment of direct taxes) because that treatment would "destroy" the original textual provision. The problem with this argument is that the Court in Brushaber did not say that the Sixteenth Amendment cannot validly modify (or "destroy" if you will) the legal effect of the original text. Remember, this was Frank Brushaber's proposition, not the Court's proposition.

What the Court said was that Frank Brushaber's proposition and the Frank Brushaber contentions were incorrect. The key language is the Court's verbiage "if acceded to." The key word is "IF." The point is that the Court did NOT accede to Mr. Frank Brushaber's contentions, or to his proposition. Frank Brushaber lost the case. That means that the Court did NOT rule that the Sixteenth Amendment could not modify (or could not "destroy") the legal effect of the original text.

The Court quoted the Amendment itself:
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
The Court then said:
It is clear on the face of this text that it does not purport to confer [a new] power to levy income taxes in a generic sense,-an authority [that was] already possessed [by Congress under the original text of the Constitution] and [that was] never questioned, - or to limit and distinguish between one kind of income taxes and another
In other words, the Sixteenth Amendment does not distinguish between one kind of income tax and another. And the original text of the Constitution already gave Congress the unquestioned power to tax incomes.

Instead, said the Court:
the whole purpose of the Amendment was to relieve all income taxes[,] when imposed[,] from [“the requirement of] apportionment [and to relieve all income taxes] from [the Pollock requirement that the courts engage in] a consideration of the source whence the income was derived . . . .
(bolding added).

Here, the Court clearly states that the purpose of the Amendment was to eliminate the need to consider the "source" of the income -- since (under the Amendment) NO income taxes are required to be apportioned.
Last edited by Famspear on Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Famspear
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Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Famspear »

Comment: The text of Brushaber is in my opinion one of the worst examples of convoluted, needlessly complex legal writing I have ever seen. Even with the explanatory words in brackets that I have added, it can be difficult to follow.

If we are going to cut tax protesters any slack at all, we must admit that the texts of cases like this do leave much to be desired in terms of clarity. The texts were written in a different time. As much as lawyers today get rapped for needless verbosity, case law today is much more straightforward than the example of the needlessly tangled, overwrought syntax of Brushaber.

Tax protesters compound the problem for themselves, of course, because they're straining to find the opposite meaning in federal cases that uphold the validity and application of the Federal income tax. Contrary to what we routinely hear from tax protesters, it is the tax protesters themselves (not the 99.999% of legal scholars) who study case law who are the "sheeple" (to use their own term) -- the protesters are simply following their own party line, straining to look for the illusory, non-existent text that will "prove" that the evil government's income tax is somehow "really" invalid. All the cases (so far, as of mid-August 2008) are against them.
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Famspear
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Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Famspear »

Again, here is the erroneous assumption by Mr. Frank Brushaber that the Court rejected:
. . . that the 16th Amendment provides for a hitherto unknown power of taxation; that is, [the erroneous assumption that the 16th Amendment itself grants] a power to levy an income tax which, although direct, should not be subject to the regulation of apportionment applicable to all other direct taxes.
Professor Bittker is correct. Bittker is not making the erroneous assumption that the 16th Amendment itself grants a power to levy an unapportioned income tax. Bittker is simply point out, correctly, that:
As construed by the Supreme Court in the Brushaber case, the power of Congress to tax income derives from Article I, Section 8, Clause 1, of the original Constitution rather than from the Sixteenth Amendment; the latter simply eliminated the requirement that an income tax, to the extent that it is a direct tax, must be apportioned among the states.
There is a difference between granting a new power and eliminating a requirement. This is perhaps a subtle distinction, and it might not be MUCH of a difference, but it is nonetheless a distinction that the Court itself made.
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notorial dissent
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Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by notorial dissent »

What it all boils down to, and what Stevie really doesn’t like and won't admit to, is that the court said a tax on income, any income, was permissible and allowed, that it didn’t matter where the income came, and that Congress has the authority to say what income is, and they most certainly have.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.
SteveSy

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by SteveSy »

Famspear wrote:Again, here is the erroneous assumption by Mr. Frank Brushaber that the Court rejected:
. . . that the 16th Amendment provides for a hitherto unknown power of taxation; that is, [the erroneous assumption that the 16th Amendment itself grants] a power to levy an income tax which, although direct, should not be subject to the regulation of apportionment applicable to all other direct taxes.
Professor Bittker is correct. Bittker is not making the erroneous assumption that the 16th Amendment itself grants a power to levy an unapportioned income tax. Bittker is simply point out, correctly, that:
As construed by the Supreme Court in the Brushaber case, the power of Congress to tax income derives from Article I, Section 8, Clause 1, of the original Constitution rather than from the Sixteenth Amendment; the latter simply eliminated the requirement that an income tax, to the extent that it is a direct tax, must be apportioned among the states.
There is a difference between granting a new power and eliminating a requirement. This is perhaps a subtle distinction, and it might not be MUCH of a difference, but it is nonetheless a distinction that the Court itself made.
I'm sorry but it appears to me you're saying Brushaber made the erroneous assumption that the 16th "grants a power" but was correct in saying the government can lay a tax which is although direct does not require apportionment? That almost made my brain hurt to think you're saying that. What about the second paragraph explaining why such an assumption is flawed? The court made it clear it would be a new power because congress could then lay a tax without apportionment and without uniformity. All Direct taxes require apportionment and all indirect taxes require uniformity. This would be a new kind of taxing power, one never heard of before it would require neither. It requires neither because this direct tax would not require apportionment and because its direct by default it doesn't require uniformity.
In some cases, the argument seems to be that an income tax is a direct tax and that the Sixteenth Amendment cannot modify the original text of the Constitution (requiring apportionment of direct taxes) because that treatment would "destroy" the original textual provision. The problem with this argument is that the Court in Brushaber did not say that the Sixteenth Amendment cannot validly modify (or "destroy" if you will) the legal effect of the original text. Remember, this was Frank Brushaber's proposition, not the Court's proposition.
No Frank didn't say that he simply said that the 16th allows for a specific kind of direct tax without apportionment. They then went on to say if acceded to it would cause the following.
But it clearly results that the proposition and the contentions [240 U.S. 1, 12] under it, if acceded to, would cause one provision of the Constitution to destroy another; that is, they would result in bringing the provisions of the Amendment exempting a direct tax from apportionment into irreconcilable conflict with the general requirement that all direct taxes be apportioned. Moreover, the tax authorized by the Amendment, being direct, would not come under the rule of uniformity applicable under the Constitution to other than direct taxes, and thus it would come to pass that the result of the Amendment would be to authorize a particular direct tax not subject either to apportionment or to the rule of geographical uniformity, thus giving power to impose a different tax in one state or states than was levied in another state or states. This result, instead of simplifying the situation and making clear the limitations on the taxing power, which obviously the Amendment must have been intended to accomplish, would create radical and destructive changes in our constitutional system and multiply confusion.
Frank didn't say the above the court did. They were just explaining what would happen if the court acceded to Franks argument that the 16th authorized a direct tax without apportionment and the contentions made under it.
Last edited by SteveSy on Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by ASITStands »

Good analysis 'Famspear!'

Enjoyed reading it, including, your few comments about tax protesters.
SteveSy

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by SteveSy »

Come on Famspear, are you going to sit there and say congress can constitutionally lay a direct tax, in this case an income tax, higher in one state than in another? For instance tax NY residents at 60% and CA at 10%? That's what you would have to admit congress has the power to do if your and Bitkker's analysis is valid. The court knew this was not the intention of congress so they scrambled to try and put the Genie back in the bottle. The only effect of the amendment was to prevent someone from resorting to the source of the income to take what was otherwise an indirect tax and place it in the category of direct taxation where it didn't belong. The truth is there would have been no need to say that if your analysis was valid, because even if it was moved it wouldn't matter nothing would change as far as congress's ability to tax anyway they saw fit.
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Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Famspear »

SteveSy wrote:Come on Famspear, are you going to sit there and say congress can constitutionally lay a direct tax, in this case an income tax, higher in one state than in another? For instance tax NY residents at 60% and CA at 10%? That's what you would have to admit congress has the power to do if your and Bitkker's analysis is valid. The court knew this was not the intention of congress so they scrambled to try and put the Genie back in the bottle. The only effect of the amendment was to prevent someone from resorting to the source of the income to take what was otherwise an indirect tax and place it in the category of direct taxation where it didn't belong. The truth is there would have been no need to say that if your analysis was valid, because even if it was moved it wouldn't matter nothing would change as far as congress's ability to tax anyway they saw fit.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, Steve. Go back and read the text. Bittker is right. I am right.

On one point you raised, though: Am I saying (and is Bittker saying) that Congress lay a tax that is imposed at a higher rate in one state than in another? No, I think maybe you're confusing apportionment and uniformity. Under the rule of uniformity (i.e., geographic uniformity), Congress could not impose a valid federal income tax that says: New York residents pay the tax at 60% of taxable income, while California residents pay the tax at 10% of taxable income." Nothing in the Brushaber holdings and nothing in Bittker's writings say that you could impose an income tax like that.

By contrast, apportionment means, roughly, that the total dollar amount of tax collected from the citizens (or residents?) of each state should be in proportion to that state's population. So, if State X has 12% of the population of the United States, presumably 12% of the dollar amount of a given tax (and, presumably no more and no less) would have to come from the citizens (residents?) of that state. Obviously, for a true income tax, that would virtually never work, since the income distribution among states does not necessarily coincide with the population distribution.
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