Liberty Dollar continued

[Demosthenes]

as far as I know no one has made a criminal complaint about being duped and no banks received any.

There have been at least three criminal cases so far.

[webhick]

Fact is that he did tell people to attempt to pass the money as $20 USD.

Back this up with fact instead of assertion. Show exactly where he said anything like that.

The coins did not contain $20USD worth of silver.

He never claimed they did, in fact he listed the spot price on hist site. Strange way to scam people.

6. Now the hardest part - don't say anything! Just wait. Let the person marvel at its beauty, weight, and discover it says TWENTY DOLLARS. When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver PRIVATE currency valued at 20 dollars." Do not rush. Just stand there and wait, patiently. No need to smile. Just wait.

Source: http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/spend-l ... ospend.htm

I have a major issue with the highlighted phrase above because it is misleading at best. Just like a $20 FRN, it cannot actually be valued at $20. But they both have a "face value" of $20. With FRNs, it goes without saying that the $20 is face value because it's just a stupid piece of cotton-blend paper with pretty colors. But when you pass around an ounce of silver and say that it's "valued at," it's easy to either intentionally or accidentally dupe someone into believing that it contains $20 of silver. Especially those who do not live and breathe the silver market and roughly know how much an ounce of silver is worth. And while people can look it up online, they certainly will not hold up a line of customers to check it out with the LD supporter standing right there.

[webhick]

I remember reading something on the old Norfed site about how you don't pay taxes on LD transaction. I've been trying to locate it since, but cannot seem to find it. I saw the item about sales tax, but that wasn't it. It was something about putting the LD in the separate register and not having to claim it as income. Does anyone have a link to this or know if I'm remembering this in error? I'll keep looking in the meantime.

[SteveSy]

as far as I know no one has made a criminal complaint about being duped and no banks received any.

There have been at least three criminal cases so far.

Since you keep up with this would you mind posting them or a link to them?

I would like to see the circumstances surrounding the accusation.

Personally, I doubt anyone was tricked in to believing these were actually made by the U.S. mint. If so then they would also be likely to get tricked in to accepting Disney dollars or Monopoly money.

I have never seen one of these things up close. Nor have I had anyone try and offer me one. However, if I knew these were accepted by enough businesses to buy basic things like clothes, office supplies, TV's etc, I would gladly accept them. Why wouldn't I? I couldn't care less that the amount on the bill does not equal the exact value in silver as long as they were semi-widely accepted I would be fine. In fact I would prefer them because I know if the government keeps on debasing the currency through its irresponsible spending practices I have can at least upgrade my bills to new ones, effectively doubling my money minus an exchange fee or can turn them in for silver or gold for a small gain.

Of course the dollar could go up in value...but hey, the track record of the dollar shows that's not likely at least not over time. Besides, it doesn't really matter, what matters is the ability to exchange for the stated figure written on the note or coin. If people are willing to accept them with a $20 face value and they're only backed by one ounce of silver with the spot price of $7 FRN who cares, at least they're backed by something. The good faith and credit of the U.S. government that backs the FRN doesn't look so great these days and hasn't for sometime.

[wserra]

I remember reading something on the old Norfed site about how you don't pay taxes on LD transaction.... Does anyone have a link to this?

Sure.

[cynicalflyer]

as far as I know no one has made a criminal complaint about being duped and no banks received any.

There have been at least three criminal cases so far.

Since you keep up with this would you mind posting them or a link to them?

Shane Buczek Buffalo, NY. Tried to pawn off Liberty Dollars in 2006 at a hockey game.

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/su ... 420641_ITM

BUFFALO, N.Y., Jan. 23 (UPI) -- A New York man and his son have been charged with criminal possession of a forged instrument and criminal impersonation for using Liberty $20 coins.

Daniel Buczek and Shane Buczek, both of Derby, N.Y., are believed to be the first people in western New York arrested for trying to make purchases with the Liberty dollar, the Buffalo (N.Y.) News reported Sunday.

Shaun Kranish has been arrested for trying to pass these off. As previously noted, he pled down and out. viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2772

[SteveSy]

Kind of funny actually....if the government hadn't seized the bullion people who had these actually made money, about 30%, over FRN's issued the same year.


Seems the real ripoff was using FRN's instead of these...prior to the government stealing all the bullion that backed them of course.

[cynicalflyer]

Lancaster New Era (Pennsylvania), March 3, 2008 Monday, B; Pg. 1, 572 words, Activist charged in flap over currency; Former Constitution Party candidate is charged with theft by deception for use of privately made "Liberty Dollar.", Tom Murse, Lancaster, PA

Penn Township police say Fritz Schrom broke the law when he used $111 worth of silver and copper to pay an electric bill at a Weis Markets near Manheim on Oct. 20.

"It's nice stuff, good stuff. It's just not legal tender," says Sgt. Matt Weidman, who filed the charge against Schrom.

The dispute centers on whether a so-called gold, silver or copper "Liberty Dollar" - private currency made with precious metals - is, in fact, legal tender. An estimated 100,000 people are using them, its maker contends.

[cynicalflyer]

IN BRIEF; Spokesman Review (Spokane, WA) March 2, 2006 Thursday

'LIBERTY DOLLARS' USED TO BUY GAS

A woman bought $35 worth of gas at a Hayden service station last month, paying with two commemorative silver coins that she claimed were legal tender, according to police reports.

The "Liberty Dollars" had a $20 denomination stamped on the back of each coin. The woman told the manager of Short Stop Shell & Lube Center that the coins were replacing $20 bills, according to the account in the police report. The manager allowed her to pay for the gas with the coins, and he and a customer each exchanged one of their own $20 bills for a coin, the report said.

Later, the manager became suspicious and called a bank, where he learned that there are no $20 coins in circulation.

- Becky Kramer

[cynicalflyer]

Seems the real ripoff was using FRN's instead of these...prior to the government stealing all the bullion that backed them of course.

Again Steve, not stolen. Seized under a properly executed search warrant.

[SteveSy]

Lancaster New Era (Pennsylvania), March 3, 2008 Monday, B; Pg. 1, 572 words, Activist charged in flap over currency; Former Constitution Party candidate is charged with theft by deception for use of privately made "Liberty Dollar.", Tom Murse, Lancaster, PA

Penn Township police say Fritz Schrom broke the law when he used $111 worth of silver and copper to pay an electric bill at a Weis Markets near Manheim on Oct. 20.

"It's nice stuff, good stuff. It's just not legal tender," says Sgt. Matt Weidman, who filed the charge against Schrom.

The dispute centers on whether a so-called gold, silver or copper "Liberty Dollar" - private currency made with precious metals - is, in fact, legal tender. An estimated 100,000 people are using them, its maker contends.

Thanks...as i suspected people were breaking the law not NorFed. It would be the same if someone sent in monopoly money to pay their electric bill. NorFed never suggested or even hinted people should send these in to pay your utility bills.

[SteveSy]

IN BRIEF; Spokesman Review (Spokane, WA) March 2, 2006 Thursday

'LIBERTY DOLLARS' USED TO BUY GAS

A woman bought $35 worth of gas at a Hayden service station last month, paying with two commemorative silver coins that she claimed were legal tender, according to police reports.

Thanks again....

[SteveSy]

Seems the real ripoff was using FRN's instead of these...prior to the government stealing all the bullion that backed them of course.

Again Steve, not stolen. Seized under a properly executed search warrant.

Same thing in this case.

[Demosthenes]

Subject: Bernard von NotHaus can't and won't defend his coins From: Michael Martinez [mailto:matrixmichael18@yahoo.com]

I have been defending the Liberty Dollar $10 silver coin in a criminal action for over a year now. Because Bernard von NotHaus has refused to help me with his alleged Lawyers?

Yamhill County, Oregon charged me with violating a Federal Law, Title 18 U.S.C. § 486 and a state statute of Forgery because I used the Liberty Dollar $10 silver coin to buy a $10 music CD Rom.

Title 18 U.S.C. § 486:

Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utter or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined not more than $3,000 or imprisoned not more than five years or both.

I sued Yamhill County, the State of Oregon, and more than a dozen county and state officers under the civil rights act alleging that I had a right to exchange, trade, and barter with the Liberty Dollar $10 silver coin in commerce with anyone who was willing to accept it.

But Bernard von NotHaus refused to join the lawsuit. He closed up his NORFED office after NORFED was served with a summons so that the sheriff could not serve him with a summons. So, I have had to defend myself and Bernard von NotHauss Liberty Dollar coin for over a year.

In United States v. Falvey, 676 F.2d 871 (1982) the United States Court of Appeals for the First Circuit wrote, at page 876:

* * *. The bill was referred to in Congress as one to punish and prevent counterfeiting of coin of the United States,136 Cong. Globe, 38th Cong., 1st Sess. 2707 (1864) (emphasis added), and it was captioned as such in Statutes at Large, 13 Stat. 120. There is no reference to applicability to foreign money as such. Rather, the primary concern of Congress seems to have been with the prohibition of private systems of coinage created for use in competition with the official United States coinage. See United States v. Gellman, 44 F.Supp. 360, 364 (D.Minn. 1942); cf. Curran v. Sanford, 145 F.2d 229 (5th Cir. 1 944) (sections 485and 486 define separate offenses).

In United States v. Gellman, 44 F.Supp. 360 (1942), head note 3 reads:

The statutes prohibiting the making or uttering coins resembling money or uttering devices of minor coins were primarily adopted to prevent the coining of money in competition with the United States, and resemblance or similitude to genuine coins is not necessarily an element to violation of statute. Cr. Code §§ 167, 168, 18 U.S.C.A. §§ 281, 282.

Please tell me, how can we defend against this statute?

Respectfully,

Michael DeLeon Martinez

matrixmichael18@yahoo.com

[Demosthenes]

Thanks...as i suspected people were breaking the law not NorFed.

Well, duh. Von Nuthous obviously hasn't been indicted yet. The civil suit has been delayed by six minths so that the feds can complete their criminal investigation.

[cynicalflyer]

By the way Stevie. Here is a civil case where Liberty Dollars were used for no good by some TPs. I am sure this will help on hte forthcoming money laundering charges. Everett v. Lay, 2006 Wash. App. LEXIS 1695

In an attempt to avoid federal tax liens, the taxpayers transferred their real property to the corporation.
...
Here, the Johnsons deeded the property to Cutting Edge Enterprises "for and in consideration of (21) Liberty u.S.A. [sic] Silver Dollars, plus corporate notes of undetermined value in hand paid." fn11 3 CP (No. 32682-5-II) at 258. The IRS set the minimum bid for the property at $32,940. And Lay purchased the property for that amount: $32,940.

fn11 According to http://www.libertydollar.org/html/faq.asp, the Liberty Dollar is:
a warehouse receipt that guarantees that whoever is holding the currency has ownership to the silver stored in the insured warehouse. The $10 Certificate is backed by one Troy ounce of pure .999 fine silver, the $5 by a half-ounce and $1 by a tenth-ounce. The $500.00 gold certificate is backed by one ounce of pure .9999 fine gold.

Based on these facts, we conclude that Cutting Edge Enterprises did not purchase the property for "adequate and full consideration in money or money's worth." HN8Under 26 C.F.R. 301.6323(h)-1(a)(3), the "corporate notes of undetermined value" cannot be reduced to a money value and cannot be considered as "money or money's worth." 26 C.F.R. 301.6323(h)-1(a)(3). In addition, 21 Liberty Dollars are worth less than $30. This value has no reasonable relationship to the property's true value, which was at least $32,940. fn12

fn12 Because 10 Liberty Dollars are backed by one Troy ounce of pure .999 fine silver, 21 Liberty Dollars are backed by approximately two Troy ounces of pure .999 fine silver. According to http://www.kitco.com/charts/historicalsilver.html, the price for one ounce of silver during June 1998, was less than $ 6.00. Thus, the true value of the property acquired by Cutting Edge Enterprises is at least 1,000 times more valuable than the consideration paid to the Johnsons. This is not a reasonable relationship.

[cynicalflyer]

Seems the real ripoff was using FRN's instead of these...prior to the government stealing all the bullion that backed them of course.

Again Steve, not stolen. Seized under a properly executed search warrant.

Same thing in this case.

If you cannot tell the difference between stolen and lawfully seized under a search warrant, you really are thick.

[The Observer]

Considering what the notes and the coins say on them I think its obvious "both parties understand clearly what they are trading and receiving." See the example posted above of a Libby Note....I really feel sorry for you if you think they look similar enough to claim he's trying to sell these as USD.

No, what the buyers thought was that they would be able to trade these coins for purchases (with change in return in most cases) as though these coins were worth $20. That is exactly what von Nothaus told people to do with them and the several posts above attest as to that actually happening.

No one made that claim, creating stawmen to win an argument is pretty weak. Let's try and stick to the facts.

Yes, von Nothaus did - see above.

More stawmen. NorFed did not try to promote its currency as an investment in silver, only that it had the backing of silver. So worst case your money would always be worth something unlike the FRN that has consistenly lost value since it was created.

Again, see above. Von Nothaus directed these people to pass the Libbies as a currency by purchasing their items. Nowhere did Von Nothaus tell anyone that they should advise the retailer exactly how much they paid for the Libby or that the Libby may be worth less than what was marked on the coin.

No fraud...[t]here is never a guarantee that you can exchange those for actual U.S. dollars if a business refuses to take them. Trade is only good if two or more parties take your item no matter what the value. People were trading these things and as far as I know no one has made a criminal complaint about being duped and no banks received any.

Except as you can see above, there were several instances of fraud or attempted fraud by people submitting these coins in lieu of FRNs for purchases. Would you care to explain to me how many of these guys told the merchants what the real deal was regarding these Libbies were? Maybe you would like to explain why local police were getting involved? I guess those merchants just didn't understand what a great deal they were getting.

In fact there is only one documented instance of anyone getting confused and getting upset and that was done by someone not following the rules as clearly stated on the NorFed site.That person was apparently satisfied by getting FRN's instead, which of course is what NorFed said to do if they didn't want the private currency.

And as usual, you were wrong again.

[SteveSy]

Anyone can read his site. They can see never once suggested using these notes and coins without telling the people its was a private currency. Anyone can see his mission was to be the antithesis of legal tender money, not to duplicate it or resemble it. Anyone can see the notes look nothing like what's in circulation, in fact on the back it clearly states what it is, a warehouse certificate for silver.

Only a fool IMO is willing to accept the governments BS that he was trying to sell these as legal tender, that he was intentionally trying to get people to buy a coin under the assumption that the face value would equal the spot price of silver. Everyone with any brains at all knows such a thing would be impossible to mint coins with a face value equal to the spot price of silver. In fact not even the U.S. government does it, the face value does not equal the spot price.

Now you can say well the face value is actually less than the spot price, true, but then the 2000 issued libbys have a face value less than the spot price to. All your and the governments arguments are weak at best. I'm truly amazed at how gullible some of you are. You would believe anything they told you. It reminds me of the Salem witch hunts, you would think after several hundred years people would have caught some snap.

[The Observer]

If you cannot tell the difference between stolen and lawfully seized under a search warrant, you really are thick.

No, it's just Steve's hubris getting in the way of him admitting that he is on the wrong side of the argument. You would be amazed at all the ridiculous claims and assertions that Stevesy has made over the years here.