WTP takes on Obama

[fortinbras]

US passports are granted only to US citizens. The proof of citizenship is necessary only for the first passport and after that, the fact of a previous US passport would be sufficient proof to obtain a new US passport.

If baby Obama had been born in Kenya, or Indonesia, or the South Pole, the only way he'd be able to enter the US with Mama Obama (I just can't resist) is with a passport that included him (either for him alone, or - back in those days but not since about 1970 - with a parent or sibling). You'd think someone would have tumbled to that fact by now, and come up with a foreign passport that named him.

I cannot recall if Pakistan was off-limits in 1980, but even if it were generally embargoed, the US State Dept could still grant an American permission to enter Pakistan on a case-by-case basis (having relatives there might be a good enough reason). After all, during the Vietnam War, a bunch of Americans (not all of them celebrities) were able to visit North Vietnam.

Notwithstanding allegations of various people in Kenya referencing his "birth" in Kenya, not a single document from the Kenya govt, even at the request of the Bush Administration, documenting his birth there.

[Prof]

This issue has also been active in the NESARA scam community (see the Quatloos forum on this "Dove & Prosperity Programs"), with some "believers" thinking Senator Obama is the anti-Christ (or at least a shape-shifting reptilian) and others saying he's the answer to their prayers. 3 things strike me:

1. Senator Obama has a US passport (you might remember a bit of a scandal when some people went through his passport file earlier this year). He needed to prove his citizenship to get this, and that had to be via a birth certificate, right?

2. At least some of these folks claim that the Certificate of Live Birth he's shown could have been issued even if he was born outside of the US. However, it says it's good for proof of citizenship etc. How could this be? Or are the conspiracy advocates just making this up?

3. Berg (and others) have claimed that Senator Obama couldn't have gone to Pakistan in 1981 because it was closed to travel by US citizens (and thus he had to be a citizen somewhere else). I can't find anything that backs this up anywhere. Another case of making things up? If so, how can anyone trust anything else these people claim?

The last point (#3) about a "ban on travel" does not seem to be correct; I found a few small slivers of information indicating that the State Dept. had issued warnings or adivsories about travel to Pakistan but I cannot confirm that there was a "ban." Also, there was a little sliver of information from what seemed to be a legitimate source that State lifted restrictions on travel to Pakistan at some point in '81. I spent an hour or so the other night at home rooting around in the Internet and came up with just this little bit of information.

By the way, the Obama campaign did release statements briefly describing the Obama '81 trip to Pakistan.

[Prof]

Demo just posted this on a just-locked thread in "Off-Topic":

by Demosthenes on Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:05 pm

UGA Lawdog wrote:
2) Obama has written in one of his books that he went to Pakistan in 1981. That's a pretty neat trick, considering the State Department banned Americans from going there at that time because the country was under martial law. So if he did not travel on an American passport, what kind did he travel under?

If you read it on the internet, it must be true.

Excerpt from a 1981 travel article in the NY Times about American tourism in Pakistan.

LAHORE, A SURVIVOR WITH A BITTERSWEET HISTORY

By BARBARA CROSSETTE; BARBARA CROSSETTE IS AN ASSISTANT NEWS EDITOR OF THE NEW YORK TIMES.
Published: June 14, 1981

[snip]

Tourists can obtain a free, 30-day visa (necessary for Americans) at border crossings and airports. Transportation within Lahore is plentiful, with taxis, scooter rickshaws and horse-drawn tongas (especially in the old city) readily available. Insist that taxis and scooter rickshaws use their meters to determine fares, however. Fares for longer journeys (for example, to the Shalimar Gardens) may have to be negotiated; ask the hotel staff for help. (We paid about $2 by scooter for the round trip to Shalimar.) Tonga fares are always agreed on through bargaining; most rides should cost less than 50 cents.

Though Lahore has several hotels in a variety of price ranges, three are most frequently recommended to foreign visitors: the Lahore InterContinental, the Lahore Hilton and Faletti's. The first two range in price from $40 for a single room to $60 for a double; Faletti's has rooms in the $25-to-$30 range. (We paid just over $30 for a suite of two large rooms and a bath.)
"Pete's earlier conviction regarding the Post office bombing are not in any way connected to his work outlined in Cracking the Code." -- Patrick Mooney
Demosthenes
Grand Exalted Keeper of Esoterica

Posts: 12558
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:11 am
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[webhick]

This issue has also been active in the NESARA scam community (see the Quatloos forum on this "Dove & Prosperity Programs"), with some "believers" thinking Senator Obama is the anti-Christ (or at least a shape-shifting reptilian)

He is a shape-shifting lizard. He's also the the bastard love-child of the George Bush and the Queen of England. And he works for the Illuminati.

Source: Insert shameless plug.

[fortinbras]

Senator Obama is NOT a shape-shifting reptilian. I know because I am one and he's never come to a meeting.

[webhick]

Senator Obama is NOT a shape-shifting reptilian. I know because I am one and he's never come to a meeting.

He's royalty, you're not.

[LPC]

Many of the questions about Barack Obama's birth seem to reflect a typical tax protester mentality (to try to tie this thread to the subject of this board). For example:

1. Schulz (and others) seem to believe that Obama has a heavier burden of proof than other more rational people might impose. So, for example, merely producing a Hawaii birth certificate is not good enough; proof of the validity of the certificate is also required. This is similar to the arguments of tax protesters for whom a record of assessment is not good enough; they think they are entitled to some greater level of proof.

2. Along the same lines, tax protesters often get confused about the difference between a certified record and the record itself. Tax protesters want to see the "original assessment," not understanding that the "assessment" is just data that's been recorded, and that a certification of the content of the data is all that they are entitled to. Similarly, the birth certificate that I have is a document dated some days after my birth, states my name, sex, place of birth, and date of birth, and states that it is "a true certification of name and birth facts as recorded in this office." I don't know the form of records kept in "this office," but I'm sure that they look nothing like the piece of paper I hold. And Obama's birth certificate is the same kind of document. It is not the record that was created at the time of his birth, but a certificate as to the contents of that record. And legally, it may be enough.

3. Schulz (and others) also seem to believe that the burden of persuasion is on Obama, which is why he needs to address every challenge. But in real life (or real law) the burden of persuasion often shifts once a minimal showing has been made. So, for example, and returning to the example of the record of tax assessment, a summary record of assessment, showing an assessment in a usual manner, becomes presumptively correct, and the burden falls on the tax protester to show some irregularity. In a similar way, once Obama has provided a birth certificate which appears to be in the usual form, the burden might shift to the challengers to persuade a court that there is something wrong, and not Obama's burden to prove that everything is right.

4. Finally, Schulz (and others) seem to assume the existence of formal requirements that might not in fact exist. Tax protesters often challenge notices of deficiencies and notices of tax liens on the grounds that the notices are not signed, even though no law requires any signature. Similarly, challengers of Obama's birth certificate have made the claim that the certificate is invalid because it does not bear a signature, but Hawaii law might not require a signature on that kind of document.

I don't know exactly what standards of proof, or standards of persuasion, and court might apply even if it found that it had jurisdiction to hear a dispute, but it is entirely possible that Obama's initial burden of proof would be satisfied by the birth certificate that's already been produced, and that the burden would then shift to the challengers to prove that the certificate was wrong. And that proof appears to be completely nonexistent.

[The Observer]

That is an excellent summary on the TP approach to dealing with evidence, LPC.

The only question in my mind is whether their approach evolves as they run into more obstacles in trying to prove their case or have they already established in their minds what they think the evidence should show?

[grixit]

The evidence shows that Obama is guilty of being unacceptably different from them.

[LPC]

If America were a bar, Bob would have been bounced.

If America were a bar, Schulz would have had the shit kicked out of him, and then been bounced.

[ASITStands]

If baby Obama had been born in Kenya, or Indonesia, or the South Pole, the only way he'd be able to enter the US with Mama Obama (I just can't resist) is with a passport that included him (either for him alone, or - back in those days but not since about 1970 - with a parent or sibling). You'd think someone would have tumbled to that fact by now, and come up with a foreign passport that named him.

I asked a friend who had been born in Germany whether a passport was needed in his case, and he said, "No." One difference might be that he was born to military parents. Not sure.

[Nikki]

Would any of the legal experts care to opine on the rationale and validity of Bob's styling his newspaper ad as a "Petition for Redress"?

It's one thing to serve an inane petition on the government, but I fail to see any constitutional requirement for a private citizen, such as President-Elect Obama, to respond to such an instrument.

[Dezcad]

Would any of the legal experts care to opine on the rationale and validity of Bob's styling his newspaper ad as a "Petition for Redress"?

It's one thing to serve an inane petition on the government, but I fail to see any constitutional requirement for a private citizen, such as President-Elect Obama, to respond to such an instrument.

Maybe I, along with others, should serve a Petition for Redress upon Bob.

[wserra]

Perhaps one of those "legal experts" would opine on the "rationale and validity" of Schulz' (ahem) "foundation" still possessing 501(c)(3) status.

1111 Constitution Avenue - anybody home? Hello?

[notorial dissent]

If baby Obama had been born in Kenya, or Indonesia, or the South Pole, the only way he'd be able to enter the US with Mama Obama (I just can't resist) is with a passport that included him (either for him alone, or - back in those days but not since about 1970 - with a parent or sibling). You'd think someone would have tumbled to that fact by now, and come up with a foreign passport that named him.

I asked a friend who had been born in Germany whether a passport was needed in his case, and he said, "No." One difference might be that he was born to military parents. Not sure.

Real big difference, if you are serving military, you are always on US soil and don’t need a passport unless traveling on your own.

[grixit]

Would any of the legal experts care to opine on the rationale and validity of Bob's styling his newspaper ad as a "Petition for Redress"?

It's one thing to serve an inane petition on the government, but I fail to see any constitutional requirement for a private citizen, such as President-Elect Obama, to respond to such an instrument.

Maybe I, along with others, should serve a Petition for Redress upon Bob.

Require him to change into a clown suit?

[fortinbras]

Somebody got to the bottom of the story that Grandmama Obama said that Barack was born in Africa. See:
http://www.slate.com/id/2206033/pagenum/all/#p2

The telephone conversation with the step-grandmother in Kenya was sifted through two interpreters and the first comment attributed to the grandmother was that she was "there" in Kenya when Obama was born .... but further in the conversation the question of where Barack Obama was born was articulated unambiguously and the answer from grandma came back unambiguously, twice, that he was born in Hawaii.

The confusion may have come because the Pres-Elect is Barack Hussein Obama, Junior, his Kenya-born father (who died in 1982) having been B.H.O. Senior.

On Friday, Dec 5th, the US Supreme Court reportedly had the appeal of Donofrio v. Wells -- another Obama citizenship case -- on the conference schedule. This means only that all nine Justices vote on whether or not to allow the case to be brought into the court -- a vote of four Justices is needed to bring in the case. Monday morning (Dec 8th) the Supreme Court announced it would not take the case.

[LPC]

The Tribune Company, publisher of the Chicago Tribune, filed for bankruptcy protection today.

So, WTP publishes an ad in the Tribune, and a week later it declares bankruptcy. Coincidence? I think not.

[LPC]

And the Donofrio application for a stay was denied today.

Another coincidence.

[webhick]

One more, one more, one more coincidence and we have a conspiracy!