Schiff Gets Extra 11 Months

[Burzmali]

What are you going to do when one of his supporter tosses him a disposal cellphone? Someone has to be watching that camera. Someone has to go in and get it. If you didn't have at least one person watching him all the time, you'd might as well not bother, because he would continue to carry out his enterprise the same way he did before he was convicted.

[Doktor Avalanche]

C'mon, Burz, you act like Steve's actually thought this all the way through.

[cynicalflyer]

C'mon, Burz, you act like Steve's actually thought this all the way through.

Oh, but he has...

Install some cameras in his home, forbid computers and cell phones and monitor his phone calls. Better yet, limit his inbound and outbound calls to approved people only.

That is the limits to his "thoughts". Of course as others have noted, none of this precludes people tossing Schiff a cell phone and having him chat away in his back yard on it.

Last I checked, probation and parole departments are exceptionally overstretched as it is. To think someone is going to review Schiff's every action, every moment (someone is going to have to review those camera tapes), every day is absurd.

Oh wait. There is a place where, thanks to economies of scale, such an endeavour is possible and cost-optimal. Where someone's actions and movements can be monitored on a near constant basis.

Just such
A place
Is
Local, too.

What might it be called I wonder?

Perhaps
Recollection
Is
Somewhere
On the tip of my
toNgue

[The Observer]

C'mon, Burz, you act like Steve's actually thought this all the way through.

Actually I don't think that this is an issue of Steve not thinking through his position. I think Steve is pushing this because he knows that it would allow Irwin to keep agitating against the income tax system. Steve would love nothing better than watching the income tax system collapse and the best way that could happen in his mind is if there are enough TPs out there chipping away at the system.

If the IRS could be reduced to being considered toothless and irrelevant then it would allow for more people to risk not paying taxes, especially if they perceive that, at worst they would end up at home - because enforcement by the justice system would be overwhelmed and some people would end up being overlooked or ignored.

Of course that is just the fantasy that is played over in TP minds. They tend to forget that for the most part, taxpayers are wage earners and it takes little effort for the IRS to reach out and start garnishing their income. After the levy hits, most wage-earners would seriously reconsider challenging the government over taxes.

[SteveSy]

What are you going to do when one of his supporter tosses him a disposal cellphone? Someone has to be watching that camera. Someone has to go in and get it. If you didn't have at least one person watching him all the time, you'd might as well not bother, because he would continue to carry out his enterprise the same way he did before he was convicted.

I seriously doubt Schiff is going to sneak a cell phone to try and promote his crap under those conditions, it would be his last chance and he would know it. Its that or sit in a cell do not pass go.

I'm not saying it would work for everyone but the majority of white collar criminals would do their time with little incident. Most are stuck in a minimum security prison where they could walk out if they wanted or someone could toss them a cell phone from the street.

[SteveSy]

C'mon, Burz, you act like Steve's actually thought this all the way through.

Actually I don't think that this is an issue of Steve not thinking through his position. I think Steve is pushing this because he knows that it would allow Irwin to keep agitating against the income tax system. Steve would love nothing better than watching the income tax system collapse and the best way that could happen in his mind is if there are enough TPs out there chipping away at the system.

Give me a break....and you think I'm a conspiracy theorist.

There is a problem, we have the highest inmate population in the world and its not due to mainly drugs. Many other countries have a lot less tolerance for drugs than we do yet their inmate population is still lower. We severely punish people for nonviolent crimes such as tax crap. Yes they might need to be taught a lesson but the fact of the matter is its a debt and nothing more. The only difference between a tax debt and a credit card or mortgage debt is that its owed to the government and they can make laws severely punishing people for not paying. Its still a debt though regardless. It makes little sense to sentence people for ten damn years to prison because they are a TP. It defeats the purpose of collecting taxes, it doesn't rehabilitate any of them and in most cases it doesn't convince them to not do it again or any of the others to not do it again. We're wasting money...

[Burzmali]

I seriously doubt Schiff is going to sneak a cell phone to try and promote his crap under those conditions, it would be his last chance and he would know it. Its that or sit in a cell do not pass go.

Are we talking about the same Irwin Schiff who is spending his third term in prison for promoting his nonsense? If the first two prison sentences didn't deter him, I doubt telling him "don't do it , or you could go the jail!" is going to help much.

[SteveSy]

I seriously doubt Schiff is going to sneak a cell phone to try and promote his crap under those conditions, it would be his last chance and he would know it. Its that or sit in a cell do not pass go.

Are we talking about the same Irwin Schiff who is spending his third term in prison for promoting his nonsense? If the first two prison sentences didn't deter him, I doubt telling him "don't do it , or you could go the jail!" is going to help much.

Schiff was under the impression he could win if he just did it right. The scenario I'm talking about there isn't a win, he has lost and has a choice, either spend time at home or sit in a cell. No new trial, no debate, no convincing, do it right or else. Again, I'm not saying this would work for everyone, but I think it would work for most. Its not about giving them a break its about the most efficient method.

[Burzmali]

Schiff was under the impression he could win if he just did it right. The scenario I'm talking about there isn't a win, he has lost and has a choice, either spend time at home or sit in a cell. No new trial, no debate, no convincing, do it right or else.

Well since the courts convicted IRWIN SCHIFF not Irwin: Family Schiff, he would have no qualms continuing his enterprise while the government has IRWIN SCHIFF under house arrest.

[SteveSy]

Schiff was under the impression he could win if he just did it right. The scenario I'm talking about there isn't a win, he has lost and has a choice, either spend time at home or sit in a cell. No new trial, no debate, no convincing, do it right or else.

Well since the courts convicted IRWIN SCHIFF not Irwin: Family Schiff, he would have no qualms continuing his enterprise while the government has IRWIN SCHIFF under house arrest.

Right...I don't think you even know what Schiff's arguments were. I don't recall Schiff arguing the sovereign citizen crap. Besides I'm talking tax criminals in general, It won't work for some but I believe for most it will. Most have a lot to lose by sitting in prison vs. still contributing but receiving a lot less. 99% have businesses, jobs and have material desires. They would think twice before risking an immediate trip to a cell.

[Judge Roy Bean]

The deterrence factor has to be applied in these kinds of cases, and in Schiff's mind (or what's left of it), he is still on the side of truth, justice and the American way and simply can't renounce something he's so fixated on. If they were to let him into a home confinement regime it would probably be interpreted as a sign the evildoers knew he was right all along.

And of course, if they let him slide on it, the next fool in line will take the same chances.

[The Observer]

The scenario I'm talking about there isn't a win, he has lost and has a choice, either spend time at home or sit in a cell. No new trial, no debate, no convincing, do it right or else.

That has been the scenario every single time Schiff went to court over his tax theories. I am confident that if Irwin was released, he would come up with another angle on how he could "do it right" this time. Face it, Steve, Schiff is the worst poster boy you could be putting forward for your argument on house arrest.

There is a problem, we have the highest inmate population in the world and its not due to mainly drugs. Many other countries have a lot less tolerance for drugs than we do yet their inmate population is still lower. We severely punish people for nonviolent crimes such as tax crap. Yes they might need to be taught a lesson but the fact of the matter is its a debt and nothing more. The only difference between a tax debt and a credit card or mortgage debt is that its owed to the government and they can make laws severely punishing people for not paying. Its still a debt though regardless. It makes little sense to sentence people for ten damn years to prison because they are a TP. It defeats the purpose of collecting taxes, it doesn't rehabilitate any of them and in most cases it doesn't convince them to not do it again or any of the others to not do it again. We're wasting money...

Overgeneralization. Schiff was not merely failing to pay his own taxes - he was organizing, publicizing and selling a system to not pay tax debts to other people. He had earned millions regarding this enterprise and was boasting expressly that the failure of the government to prosecute him was proof that he was right. Add in the fact that this was the third time around for Irwin and you have all the right ingredients for a heavy sentence. Please show me another typical average blue-collar TP who got more than two or three years for merely sending in zero returns and not promoting the same scheme. Even Larken Rose got a relatively light sentence because he was not in the same class as Irwin.

So we are not wasting money on imprisoning people like Schiff. I am sick and tired of seeing incidents such as where Schiff sold his stupid plan to a man dying of terminal disease and his wife, and then laugh at the crying widow on the witness stand when she had to relate the stress and worry she had to go through when she found out that she owed for taxes that Irwin told her she owed for.

Steve, there is merit in your argument for some TPs who do see the light and aren't likely to relapse and go back to tax protesting. For them the experience of being prosecuted and convicted was deterrent enough. And we could save money in dealing with those cases. But you cannot apply house arrest across the board merely because it will save money. Because there are always going to be some who never get the message and prison is going to be the only cost-effective measure that guarantees that they will not repeat their crime.

[Burzmali]

Well since the courts convicted IRWIN SCHIFF not Irwin: Family Schiff, he would have no qualms continuing his enterprise while the government has IRWIN SCHIFF under house arrest.

Right...I don't think you even know what Schiff's arguments were. I don't recall Schiff arguing the sovereign citizen crap. Besides I'm talking tax criminals in general, It won't work for some but I believe for most it will. Most have a lot to lose by sitting in prison vs. still contributing but receiving a lot less. 99% have businesses, jobs and have material desires. They would think twice before risking an immediate trip to a cell.

Not yet he's not, but put in that position, I'm sure he'd pull a trick or two out of his sleeves. It might not be sovereign citizen, but it'll be something that he'll use to convince himself that since he isn't in prison, he must have won, and that if he just files the right papers he'll have his full freedom (regardless of what the courts say).

[SteveSy]

Steve, there is merit in your argument for some TPs who do see the light and aren't likely to relapse and go back to tax protesting. For them the experience of being prosecuted and convicted was deterrent enough. And we could save money in dealing with those cases. But you cannot apply house arrest across the board merely because it will save money. Because there are always going to be some who never get the message and prison is going to be the only cost-effective measure that guarantees that they will not repeat their crime.

They don't even have to see the light, just do their time. Look at Rose, he was at a minimum security prison and probably could have escaped easily if he wanted. He knew better, he had too much to lose if he did. He still believes what he originally believed but knew he had to pay the man. Like I said before most are stuck in these minimum security prisons because the government knows they're not going to risk hard time in a medium security prison, they still have lives when they get out to look forward to. I'm simply saying save us a crap load and let them do their time at home while still working having a majority of their check taken. Its better than getting nothing on their part and its better than being away from their family.

You stick someone in a prison who has skills for ten years and they're worthless when they come out, likely doomed to trivial manual labor for a good period until they get back in the societal loop. I just don't see the sense in that, especially if the mission is to collect taxes from them. Obviously the deterrent factor isn't working it seems like there's more TP's than ever.

[Anti-861]

C'mon, Burz, you act like Steve's actually thought this all the way through.

Actually I don't think that this is an issue of Steve not thinking through his position. I think Steve is pushing this because he knows that it would allow Irwin to keep agitating against the income tax system. Steve would love nothing better than watching the income tax system collapse and the best way that could happen in his mind is if there are enough TPs out there chipping away at the system.

Give me a break....and you think I'm a conspiracy theorist.

There is a problem, we have the highest inmate population in the world and its not due to mainly drugs. Many other countries have a lot less tolerance for drugs than we do yet their inmate population is still lower. We severely punish people for nonviolent crimes such as tax crap. Yes they might need to be taught a lesson but the fact of the matter is its a debt and nothing more. The only difference between a tax debt and a credit card or mortgage debt is that its owed to the government and they can make laws severely punishing people for not paying. Its still a debt though regardless. It makes little sense to sentence people for ten damn years to prison because they are a TP. It defeats the purpose of collecting taxes, it doesn't rehabilitate any of them and in most cases it doesn't convince them to not do it again or any of the others to not do it again. We're wasting money...

So your (specious) argument is that prison overcrowding is a result of enforcement of internal revenue laws? Just how many people do you think are incarcerated in Federal prisons, as a result of violations of Title 26?

Also, the idea that we toss every Federal income tax debtor into Club Fed is nonsense; it's difficult to fathom that even you are that stupid.

[SteveSy]

So your (specious) argument is that prison overcrowding is a result of enforcement of internal revenue laws? Just how many people do you think are incarcerated in Federal prisons, as a result of violations of Title 26?

I never said any such thing. I said non-violent crimes. It doesn't even have to be a majority, just a significant amount would be enough to consider other options. That's of course unless you think saving tax dollars isn't a good thing. I think a lot of you couldn't give a crap less about collecting taxes, you're more interested in enjoying watching TP's suffer, or just people you don't a agree with in general.

Also, the idea that we toss every Federal income tax debtor into Club Fed is nonsense; it's difficult to fathom that even you are that stupid.

I didn't say every, not even you are that stupid to think I said such a thing.

Sticking a person who owes taxes in prison for five to ten years is moronic. It doesn't serve a purpose, it hasn't stopped people for cheating on their taxes so it fails as a deterrent. The same person who would be deterred over five years would be just as deterred over one. It's just like the sanctions, they could raise it to a million and it wouldn't change a damn thing. The people who are getting sanctioned aren't doing it to "delay" they're doing it because they actually believe what they're saying so uping the amount does nothing except to advantage of them so they can work for years to pay the government above and beyond what they originally owed.

It's a waste of tax dollars and it's a waste of human resources to imprison most of the white collar criminals. They could be working forcibly made to pay taxes instead of being dead weight costing tax dollars. but you keep on salivating at the suffering, its your choice. Just don't whine like a sniveling brat when your taxes keep going up and up to pay for stupidity.

[jg]

...Sticking a person who owes taxes in prison for five to ten years is moronic. It doesn't serve a purpose, it hasn't stopped people for cheating on their taxes so it fails as a deterrent. The same person who would be deterred over five years would be just as deterred over one. It's just like the sanctions, they could raise it to a million and it wouldn't change a damn thing. The people who are getting sanctioned aren't doing it to "delay" they're doing it because they actually believe what they're saying so uping the amount does nothing except to advantage of them so they can work for years to pay the government above and beyond what they originally owed.
... bold added

Your opinion is that the enforcement of criminal penalties on a small portion of taxpayers does not deter others from engaging in similar behavior?

That may be true in your own mind and in other similar minds; but for a rational person the fact that some are imprisoned is a deterrent to similar behavior.

That is a valid and proper purpose of the criminal penalties (beyond the punishment aspect).

[SteveSy]

Your opinion is that the enforcement of criminal penalties on a small portion of taxpayers does not deter others from engaging in similar behavior?

My opinion is that its not enough of a deterrent to warrant wasting so much money. It's not only that taxpayers pay to incarcerate them its also that they don't pay taxes while they're in there.

If you look at it from a parent perspective what works more when child refuses to do their chores and contribute to the household.

1) Lock them in their room for a week while you do all the chores they were supposed to do. They will also be incapable of helping with anything beyond their chores, like a sibling, because they're locked up.

2) Make them do their chores for a week but refuse to pay them most of their allowance for failing to do it in the first place.

Which one accomplishes the intended purpose of making them do chores to begin with? Which one is easier on the household? Will locking them in their room for a week while you do their chores for them prove to be enough of a deterrent to outweigh the deterrent for the second option? Most children would chose option 2 as would most parents, the reasons for both should be obvious.

That may be true in your own mind and in other similar minds; but for a rational person the fact that some are imprisoned is a deterrent to similar behavior.

It is a deterrent but that is not the only thing we are trying to accomplish, nor has it been proven that making them work while forcibly making them pay back taxes and being confined to their home for the same period would not also be a deterrent.

That is a valid and proper purpose of the criminal penalties (beyond the punishment aspect).

You can have your opinion and I can have mine. Yours cost us more money mine accomplishes the original mission while costing us little to nothing. Remember these guys are in trouble for not paying, we were getting nothing to begin with. We have little to nothing to lose by trying this option first and everything to gain.

[wserra]

Your opinion is that the enforcement of criminal penalties on a small portion of taxpayers does not deter others from engaging in similar behavior?

I know of no studies to back the point up, so this is strictly my opinion, based on twenty years' practice of criminal law. From what I saw, incarcerating tax offenders is a much more significant deterrent to the wannabe tax cheats than incarcerating drug offenders is to wannabe drug dealers. The reason is simple: wannabe tax cheats are a very different demographic than wannabe dealers. The former tend to have much more to lose by incarceration than the latter, and much more fear of it.

None of this means, of course, that I believe in the across-the-board incarceration of either group.

[Demosthenes]

There is a problem, we have the highest inmate population in the world and its not due to mainly drugs.

Total # of federal prisoner 201,698
source: Bureau of Prisons

# of people in federal prison for drug crimes 114,968 (57%)
source: Bureau of Justice Statistics

# of people in federal prison for tax crimes 1,482 (less than 1%)
source: Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse, Syracuse University