So much for the new Liberty Dollar leader

[Lambkin]

There's a few merchants around Austin

I'm looking over this list and thinking that it basically proves my point. When I look over my credit card bill and my bank's bill-pay service, I am not finding many examples of merchants that would take Libbies. In fact I don't think the people I do business with would generally take legitimate gold or silver coins or bullion either except for some large purchases.

Now explain to me again, why would I want Libbies instead of recognized sources of gold or silver? I must be missing something because it seems to be pointless when certified coins are not hard to buy (they're just not a good buy, right now).

I have bartered before, but it has always been for something useful like my labor or vegetables.

[SteveSy]

I have bartered before, but it has always been for something useful like my labor or vegetables.

The benefit is when there are many vendors....Liberty dollars are suffering because of the government seizure and their silly argument that libbies infringe on the legal tender aspect. Go look at some of the other barter exchange sites, you can get just about anything. Businesses usually allow other businesses to purchase items via barter at cheaper than retail cost.

It's not for everyone, but its certainly not a rip off, unless you look at it from the investment perspective which is not the purpose of the currency. If you look at it as if you're making an investment in silver then you shouldn't do it, you should go get government certified bullion.

[Nikki]

Steve:

Let's posit that all of your customers pay you in libbies.

Also, none of your employees will accept them, your electric company won't take them, the state and federal government won't accept them as tax deposits, and your bank won't let you deposit them.

Finally, the value of the silver in the coins is approximately 75% of the face value.

How can you stay in business? Since you have to sell the coins for their silver value, you lose 25% of every sale you make -- which is the profit going into Von N's pocket.

Just how much bartering can you do? Will the local real estate tax people accept a few sides of beef in lieu of dollars?

Face it. The libby is a scam. It is just a simple way to get people to pay more for silver than they can ever get back -- or at least the guy who is stuck with it in the end can ever get. It's a game of fiscal musical chairs. When the music stops, the guy holding the libbies loses.

[SteveSy]

Steve:

Let's posit that all of your customers pay you in libbies.

Let's not, I already said that was a bad idea.

Finally, the value of the silver in the coins is approximately 75% of the face value.

Man it get's worse and worse on the metal value per post. The value of a coined dollar is approx 99% less than its face value, your point? People aren't buying them to invest in silver, no more than you collect FRN's to invest in paper, nickle, copper or whatever U.S. mint coins and bills are made of ....give up on that tired old strawman argument.

How can you stay in business? Since you have to sell the coins for their silver value, you lose 25% of every sale you make -- which is the profit going into Von N's pocket.

I couldn't obviously....but no one said do all your business in libbies anyway. You ever consider that its likely I would never have gotten the business I got from liberty customers if it weren't for me accepting libbies?

Just how much bartering can you do? Will the local real estate tax people accept a few sides of beef in lieu of dollars?

Again, no one said do all of your business in barter....that's silly.

Face it. The libby is a scam. It is just a simple way to get people to pay more for silver than they can ever get back -- or at least the guy who is stuck with it in the end can ever get. It's a game of fiscal musical chairs. When the music stops, the guy holding the libbies loses.

Its not a scam....its a medium of exchange for barter, that's all. You're getting extra business that you would have likely never have gotten had it not been for the barter to begin with.

[Lambkin]

It's not for everyone, but its certainly not a rip off, unless you look at it from the investment perspective which is not the purpose of the currency. If you look at it as if you're making an investment in silver then you shouldn't do it, you should go get government certified bullion.

It sounds like you are saying it's only worthwhile to people who believe in the fantasy of an alternative currency. If I walk into the supermarket and show them a silver ingot, they are going to say "OK great, now go trade that for some FRNs and we'll have a deal". Which is exactly my point - if I buy certified bullion or coins, I can translate them to FRNs for as long as FRNs are the basis of our economy. And if FRNs ever go out of style, I am still in business. But Liberty Dollars don't help me that way. They are not as useful as FRNs today, and not worth as much as certified coins or bullion if the dollar collapses. So what's the point unless you are a sovereign dip-stick?

[Nikki]

If the libby is a valid medium of exchange for barter, then why won't you accept it at face value from all of your customers for 100% of their payments?

You are attempting to speak out of both sides of your mouth at once.

Since the libby is ONLY accepted by a small number of vendors, it's value -- in terms of purchasing power -- is substantialy less than those ugly FRNs you constantly denegrate.

As a matter of fact, if they're a valid medium of exchange for barter, why is Von N adamant about only accepting FRNs for them? Why won't he deal in barter?

Could it possibly be that he is totally aware that the coins have an intrinsic and extrinsic value substantially less than what he charges for them?

[SteveSy]

It's not for everyone, but its certainly not a rip off, unless you look at it from the investment perspective which is not the purpose of the currency. If you look at it as if you're making an investment in silver then you shouldn't do it, you should go get government certified bullion.

It sounds like you are saying it's only worthwhile to people who believe in the fantasy of an alternative currency.

Its worth while to anyone willing to barter.

So what's the point unless you are a sovereign dip-stick?

If you're a merchant your likely getting business from people you wouldn't ordinarily get business from. As a merchant you can then use that barter to make your own purchases.

[SteveSy]

If the libby is a valid medium of exchange for barter, then why won't you accept it at face value from all of your customers for 100% of their payments?

Because I can't pay the tax man or my electric with it, obviously.

You are attempting to speak out of both sides of your mouth at once.

No, I'm not.

Since the libby is ONLY accepted by a small number of vendors, it's value -- in terms of purchasing power -- is substantialy less than those ugly FRNs you constantly denegrate.

Its only small because they've been put down by the government and they're fairly new. You obviously can't have a million members accepting them overnight it takes time.

As a matter of fact, if they're a valid medium of exchange for barter, why is Von N adamant about only accepting FRNs for them? Why won't he deal in barter?

I'm sure he would be willing to trade a car for them.

Could it possibly be that he is totally aware that the coins have an intrinsic and extrinsic value substantially less than what he charges for them?

You just don't get it...you dont get them to invest in silver. When you go shopping for jewelery do you consider how much you can melt it down and get prior to your purchase? When you take your kids, if you have any, to the arcade do you consider how much you can get for melting down a token? Does it really matter that you got a handful of tokens made of tin worth about $.20 for $5 or is it important that your kids can then use them to play the games there? Now, what if the tokens were made of silver but only worth $2.50? I wouldn't mind that would you? Actually I bet a lot more parents would be taking their kids there to play in that arcade.

Maybe what's important is what you intend to use the token or jewelry for. If I have a $20 libby and I get $20 worth of car repair or gas how did I get ripped off? If the merchant who received the libby then turns around and buys $500 in tires with all the collected libbies did he get ripped off? More importantly would either of the people who accepted them got that business from those people if they weren't accepting libbies? Maybe, but likely not..they were found on some directory somewhere.

[Nikki]

If you're a merchant your likely getting business from people you wouldn't ordinarily get business from. As a merchant you can then use that barter to make your own purchases.

From whom?

Most merchants don't stock up their stores from little local retailers. They buy from manufactureers or distributors. And they also have to pay people and entities who ONLY accept FRNs.

Is Kellogs going to accept a bag full of libbies for a grocery stores purchase of Special K?

Is the US Treasury going to let a merchant dump a pile of libbies off as the quarterly withholding deposit?

Get real Steve, you're running out of wind.

The libbie is a con. And, despite Von N's acceptance of his own sales pitch, it is going to collapse.

Let me give you a little parallel. A restaurant near me, the Olney Ale House, used to give you a wooden nickle every time you bought a pint of their 12-horse ale at regular price. Four nickles were redeemable for a pint of ale or a $2.00 credit against a menu order.

In effect, those wooden slugs were worth $0.50 each -- within the restaurant -- and actually were exchanged as the equivalent of half dollars.

The restaurant changed ownership. The redemption policy was terminated. Even though people could have continued trading them among themselves, they didn't.

Guess why? Because they were worthless. They had no value whatsoever if people wouldn't accept them. And that's exactly what's going to happen to the libbies.

[SteveSy]

Most merchants don't stock up their stores from little local retailers. They buy from manufactureers or distributors. And they also have to pay people and entities who ONLY accept FRNs.

They are for personal use....forget it, you don't understand the concept of barter at all. Under your reasoning all barter methods are a scam...whatever its pointless. I suggest you look at a few of the barter systems out there in the U.S..

Get real Steve, you're running out of wind.

Its obviously over your head....you can't grasp anything outside of the little box you've placed your head in.

You do accounting right? Let's say someone came in and said "Hey, you want to join our club? Accept this barter script and you can use it to buy food, gas and car repairs. The customers you get will find you on our directory." Since you're smart you know you still have cash customers and the customers you get off the system will in all likelihood be new customers. You also know your exposure is limited because not everyone is using them. You also know you use gas, food and sometimes need car repairs. What have you lost by accepting the script? A little labor? What have you gained, a new customer, more goods? Does it matter the script is paper and worthless if you tried to sell it to a paper dealer? the next business he talks to he says "Accept this barter script and you can use it to buy food, gas, accounting and car repairs."

[Lambkin]

It sounds like you are saying it's only worthwhile to people who believe in the fantasy of an alternative currency.

Its worth while to anyone willing to barter.

I don't have to buy Libbies to barter. Why hand over $20 in real money for something not worth $20, and then try to barter with it? This does not make sense unless there is some ulterior motive. I'd be better off taking my real $20 and buying something with it instead of bartering.

So what's the point unless you are a sovereign dip-stick?

If you're a merchant your likely getting business from people you wouldn't ordinarily get business from. As a merchant you can then use that barter to make your own purchases.

This sounds like a waste of time. I have worked in retail. It works like this. At the end of the day you cash out and take the receipts to the bank. The next day you call a wholesaler and buy something on account or on a credit card. You do not spend one second talking to your wholesaler about accepting some non-money as payment. If you spend time doing anything you argue over the price with the assumption you have ready money. I can see a point to bartering when you don't have money or want to trade something that isn't money for some good or service. But starting with real dollars and then reducing their value by conversion to Libbies, this is a waste of time that could be easily avoided by just spending the cash you started with.

[SteveSy]

But starting with real dollars and then reducing their value by conversion to Libbies, this is a waste of time that could be easily avoided by just spending the cash you started with.

Do you honestly believe people who accept them would have gotten that business from that patron had it not been for libbies?

[Lambkin]

But starting with real dollars and then reducing their value by conversion to Libbies, this is a waste of time that could be easily avoided by just spending the cash you started with.

Do you honestly believe people who accept them would have gotten that business from that patron had it not been for libbies?

Absolutely. Consider the number of people who have bought Libbies. It's so close to 0% of your customers you can't possibly care one way or another if you are a retailer. Add to that the retailer's lack of interest in arguing over accepting non-money as payment, and frankly if it were my store I would just tell them to come back when they have managed to trade their Libbies for cash. There would be no damage to my business since approximately nobody is offering Libbies to begin with. Getting rid of a pain-in-the-ass customer would be the bonus.

[SteveSy]

But starting with real dollars and then reducing their value by conversion to Libbies, this is a waste of time that could be easily avoided by just spending the cash you started with.

Do you honestly believe people who accept them would have gotten that business from that patron had it not been for libbies?

Absolutely. Consider the number of people who have bought Libbies. It's so close to 0% of your customers you can't possibly care one way or another if you are a retailer. Add to that the retailer's lack of interest in arguing over accepting non-money as payment, and frankly if it were my store I would just tell them to come back when they have managed to trade their Libbies for cash. There would be no damage to my business since approximately nobody is offering Libbies to begin with. Getting rid of a pain-in-the-ass customer would be the bonus.

That's you choice. Personally I like new customers, even if its only a few that I ordinarily would have never had. I don;t get your argument about "lack of interest in arguing over accepting non-money as payment" nonsense. Theyre going to that store because they are know to accept them. Personally I find it silly that someone would try and convince a retail outlet who has never heard of them to accept a coin out of the blue for a purchase. Maybe show it to them and mention that the guy down the road takes them but that's about it....Norfed saying that on their website is just an attempt to get more people interested....doubt very many people actually try that though.

[The Operative]

You are attempting to speak out of both sides of your mouth at once.

No, I'm not.

Yes, you are.

You claim that libbies are not purchased for investment. Yet you constantly make the statement that people who bought the original libbies have not lost any money. Yet the $10 libbies have not been sold for a long time which means those people had to hold onto them in order to make money.

Let's assume that no one holds onto a libby but uses them for trade. But that $20 libby is not worth $20 unless you get some other sucker to trade you $20 worth of stuff for it. The person that is now in possession of that libby has to convince some other person to trade $20 worth of stuff for it. Eventually, someone either doesn't offer $20 worth of stuff for the libby or someone has to convert it back to FRNs. Either way, they are hosed.

On the other hand, smart people do not typically hold onto FRNs for investment either. People use their FRNs to purchase investments that earn additional money or appreciate in order to combat the effects of inflation. Sure those investments are listed in value as FRNs, but they are not FRNs. Libbies are listed in value in FRNs too. Don't try and say that libbies are inflation proof either. Tell that to the people who bought $50 libbies when silver was $19 and now those libbies are only worth $12 unless they can convince some sucker to give them $50 worth of stuff for a piece of metal that is only worth $12. On the other hand, I can trade the $20 bill in my pocket for $20 worth of stuff at more than a few dozen small vendors. Even a year from now, I will still be able to buy approximately the same amount of stuff using that $20 bill. The only person who made money off of $50 libbies was von Nutball.

As for barter script, unlike script from a buyer's club, someone has to trade FRNs with von Nuts in order to get the libbies to start with. Eventually, someone, somewhere is going to need to convert those back to FRNs because they need the actual money to buy inventory or the repair shop doesn't accept them anymore or any other host of reasons. At that time, the last person holding the libby loses. Like this person who traded $500 of her labor for a gold libby that she luckily convinced her landlord to accept for $475. The liberty associate was only going to give her $400.

[SteveSy]

You are attempting to speak out of both sides of your mouth at once.

No, I'm not.

Yes, you are.

You claim that libbies are not purchased for investment. Yet you constantly make the statement that people who bought the original libbies have not lost any money. Yet the $10 libbies have not been sold for a long time which means those people had to hold onto them in order to make money.

That's only to dispel your argument that FRNs are better somehow, yet you can't seem to put FRN's under the same microscope. Again what the heck do you get when you melt a coined dollar down.

Let's assume that no one holds onto a libby but uses them for trade. But that $20 libby is not worth $20 unless you get some other sucker to trade you $20 worth of stuff for it. The person that is now in possession of that libby has to convince some other person to trade $20 worth of stuff for it.

He doesn't have to convince anyone...he looks at a directory and finds a retailer to suit his purpose. If there's nothing he wants then don't use them, its simple.

As for barter script, unlike script from a buyer's club, someone has to trade FRNs with von Nuts in order to get the libbies to start with. Eventually, someone, somewhere is going to need to convert those back to FRNs because they need the actual money to buy inventory or the repair shop doesn't accept them anymore or any other host of reasons.

People would be stupid to accept only libbies...that's a really silly argument. You use them to a benefit yourself. You get customers you wouldn't ordinarily get.

Like I said above do you get really pissed when you walk in to a pizza place and buy $5 worth of token only to see you got $.20 worth of tin? Do you run to the management and complain that if you melted those crappy tokens down you would lose your ass? Or do you go play the games with the tokens knowing each token represents what would otherwise be a quarter? Now what if the token machine issued silver tokens but they were worth only $2.50?

Like this person who traded $500 of her labor for a gold libby that she luckily convinced her landlord to accept for $475. The liberty associate was only going to give her $400.

That wasn't very smart of her.

[Lambkin]

Steve, what percentage of your monthly gross receipts are paid in Libbies? Even if you are a real failure at business and are well-connected in the sovereign community, I'm guessing it's well below 1%. Actually I'm guessing it's like 1% of a single day's receipts, in a month.

[Tax Man]

If I walk into 100 stores with a "$20" Libby, how many are going to give me $20 in goods for it? One? Can I spend it at the local supermarket? No. Can I spend it on Amazon? No. You can spend it at your local muffler shop where the owner dropped out of school in 8th grade, but apart from that it's as good as a boat anchor.

Actually there's a lot of places in Austin that take them. The problem is the government is trying to screw people so that libbys die a miserable death. If the government left them alone its likely they'll be accepted by a lot more vendors.

Many barter groups have a limited membership...it takes time but after a while if the government doesn't screw things up you can get just about anything with it.


There's a few merchants around Austin
Pignotti Music Studios, Texas
The Hearty Vegan, Texas
Dallas Area Paranormal Society, Texas
Cathy's Cleaners & Alterations, Texas
Deep Eddy Studios, Texas
Chevron Food Mart, Texas
James Lewis Gold Buyer, Texas
Gundega Greetings, Texas
The Hardware Store Inc., Texas
Blue Moon Messiahs, Texas
Cathy's Steakhouse, Texas
Korea Garden Sushi Bar, Texas

It amazes me that a reputable place like the Dallas Area Paranormal Society takes the Liberty Dollar.

[SteveSy]

Steve, what percentage of your monthly gross receipts are paid in Libbies? Even if you are a real failure at business and are well-connected in the sovereign community, I'm guessing it's well below 1%. Actually I'm guessing it's like 1% of a single day's receipts, in a month.

I already said I haven't used them...but I would gladly accept them. My family used to use another form of barter and we got a lot of business out of it but it was shutdown, or I should say the government screwed it up so bad it wasn't worth using anymore.

Let's put it this way. If I knew there was an advertising agency that accepted them I would be happier than hell to accept them. I would just collect the libbies from people I would have probably never have gotten business from and basically get a considerably reduced cost of advertising out of it.

Haha, I wonder if I could use the DOJ's argument against the libby to say I traded the my services for a much lower FMV libby...lol Crap, send them all my way!

[SteveSy]

It amazes me that a reputable place like the Dallas Area Paranormal Society takes the Liberty Dollar.

Yeah, and they accept FRN's too..