Liberty Dollar continued

[webhick]

e. Don't hesitate to buy them back!

No matter how well your employees explain the new money, there will always be the occasional dissatisfied customer! Anytime one of your customers comes back and insists that you take back the Liberty Dollars he got from you, do so with a smile! You'll find that he will soon return and spend one he got from someone else, as the Liberty Dollar becomes more widely known in your community.

The important point is to make sure that anyone who wants to get his US dollars back can do so with a smile because for every customer who is dissatisfied with the new money, you'll find that you'll gain hundreds of customers who will be pleased and excited by them! The number of Happy customers will inevitably grow as long as you always buy them back with a smile!

Source: http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/get-sta ... ndbook.htm

"Buying back" may be synonymous with "redeem" in this case.

Come on what a major stretch, that's obviously a suggestion and not an offer. I sometimes give money back if people are dissatisfied also, doesn't mean I'm required to do so or that I will always do it. My services and materials are never redeemable after receipt of them for FRN's.

Best buy frequently refunds money for merchandise. Try and go to Best buy 60 days after you bought something and tell them "refund" is synonymous with "redeem", please redeem this product for FRN's please.

btw, the above only proves more that he didn't try to get people to screw other people.

So if you get, for example a Canadian quarter as change back from a merchant, do you hand it to them and tell them you want to return it for a refund in US quarters? Probably not, since you're talking about exchanging the Canadian currency for US currency, not receiving a refund for a product purchased.

But, under your theory, if I get an LD back as change from a merchant, I have to demand a refund? I can't just exchange it for USD? Perhaps I'm just putting words in your mouth, because I thought you were more logical than to imply that a private currency is a product and not a currency.

Now, if I purchased the LD from the merchant (gave $20 FRN for $20 LD)... LD clearly wants this to be a currency exchange not a purchase of product as indicated by his assertion that currency changes are not subject to sales tax... So again, no product or service purchased...not a refund.

[Demosthenes]

Because they were meant for trade

,

The cashier's who work at Costco, Pizza Hut, Tower Records, McDonald's, the local gas station, the grocery store, etc. don't own the business or products where they work, Stevie. They aren't in a position to engage in trade or barter with the customers.

I went to the local Sav-A-Lot grocery store. The total was $11.19, so I pulled out a $10 Liberty and a $10 FRN. The cashier was intrigued and said she had never seen these before. I nonchalantly said it was a new silver-backed currency in circulation for 4 years, and the piece she was holding was genuine silver.

I just went to three different places this morning. Each time I handed the cash register person a $10.00 Liberty (one troy ounce silver round). No questions asked, they just handed me change in those dreaded NON-federal NON-reserve NON-notes.

My wife Susan and I were at a local COSTCO warehouse club and had made what is usually a small purchase of $128 in various food and other items. We went through the checkout and were rung up then Susan ran her ATM/Debit card through the machine, but since the card was new, she couldn't remember the new PIN! What a state we were in, she kept trying, but kept getting rejected. So, I asked cashier if they accepted "Cash" and "Travelers Checks" and was greeted in the affirmative. I pulled out $60 in Liberty Checks and the rest in ALC and was greeted by the usual looks of "What is this?"

After being "kicked upstairs" to TWO managers, one of whom calls NORFED but it was after hours, they come back and tell me they will accept it as cash. This is my largest purchase with the Liberty Dollar to date.

I usually head to the Taco Bell before for some healthy fare. I placed my order and pulled out a $5 dollar bill and the NORFED coin... the cashier flipped out and said, to the effect, "Cool!! What is that?" To which I replied, "A ten dollar silver piece".

As the cash guy checks out my groceries and I end the transaction with the debit card, at the last minute, I "forget" to get a pack of Wrigley Doublemint gum "Plen-T Pack"... I put it up and offer the NORFED dollar ... the exchange was pretty normal..."What's this?" "It's a new currency backed by silver." "Wow... it's like a dollar?" "Yes, but it's actually backed by silver". (Entering into his register the amount of a $1 cash...) "So is this paper actually worth anything more than a dollar?" (words to this effect) "It's worth more than all of those dollars in your register... "

I went to my local gas station and picked up a 12-pack of pepsi. When I got to the counter, a gentleman in his 50's was working the register. I figured this would be easy - he'd probably seen silver in circulation before (I assumed.) I asked him if he would accept "the new American dollar." I showed the $1 certificate to him and he said "I never saw this before, so no." Thinking it was over, I started reaching for my FRN's and his younger co-worker (in his 20's) working at the other register asked "What is that?" So I stopped digging through my wallet, and handed him the $1 Liberty Dollar. I said "Its the new American dollar and it's backed by pure silver." He said "Cool! How do I get one?" I told him that I would exchange them 1 for 1 for his FRN's.

I then went to Albertson's, a large upscale grocery store chain in Texas and other states. I picked up some eye-contact solution and went directly to the check out. I only had the one item. It cost $3.25. After my experience at the gas station, I scanned the checkout counters for 20-something employees. There were 5 checkers working, and one was a female in her early 20's. I got into her line and immediately asked "if she accepted the new American dollar?" I flashed the $5 certificate, and she replied, "Cool!"

[SteveSy]

So if you get, for example a Canadian quarter as change back from a merchant, do you hand it to them and tell them you want to return it for a refund in US quarters? Probably not, since you're talking about exchanging the Canadian currency for US currency, not receiving a refund for a product purchased.

Ok but does that mean Canadian quarters are redeemable at that merchant?

But, under your theory, if I get an LD back as change from a merchant, I have to demand a refund? I can't just exchange it for USD? Perhaps I'm just putting words in your mouth, because I thought you were more logical than to imply that a private currency is a product and not a currency.

That's a different kind of exchange. More importantly what exactly does that have to do with refunding someone's money that is dissatisfied with an exchange vs. saying you'll redeem something from something else.

Now, if I purchased the LD from the merchant (gave $20 FRN for $20 LD)... LD clearly wants this to be a currency exchange not a purchase of product as indicated by his assertion that currency changes are not subject to sales tax... So again, no product or service purchased...not a refund.

But that doesn't mean you're redeeming $20 FRN for $20 LD does it? lol

And just because you can exchange one way does not imply you can exchange the other unless specifically told so. For instance I can buy a diamond from a dealer, that does not imply or mean I can take that diamond back a year later and "redeem" it for FRN's.

[Evil Squirrel Overlord]

Then by all means collect as many year 2000 coins and sell them to me for face value in FRN's. I'll take care of as many as you can get your little hands on.

See even you are not as dumb as to buy them from NORFED. Why won't you buy 21¢ worth of copper for $1?

Blah blah blah...

So the answer is no. You will not buy the coins from NORFED>

[SteveSy]

See even you are not as dumb as to buy them from NORFED. Why won't you buy 21¢ worth of copper for $1?

So the answer is no. You will not buy the coins from NORFED>

No and I won't buy quarters from the Treasury either!

So what? Like I said collect as many of those year 2000 coins as you like and I'll happily give you the face value in FRN's? Why won't you do that if they're worthless?

[Evil Squirrel Overlord]

See even you are not as dumb as to buy them from NORFED. Why won't you buy 21¢ worth of copper for $1?

So the answer is no. You will not buy the coins from NORFED>

No and I won't buy quarters from the Treasury either!

So what? Like I said collect as many of those year 2000 coins as you like and I'll happily give you the face value in FRN's? Why won't you do that if they're worthless?

Are you going to pay me for the shipping? Send me those "worthless" FRNs and I'll make arrangements.

I wouldn't buy quarters from the treasury either, I buy them from the mint.

Remember:
Any product may be returned for full refund within 30 days. Market driven products may be repriced to market value.

So if you wnat to return them they will buy them back for 21 cents.

[webhick]

So if you get, for example a Canadian quarter as change back from a merchant, do you hand it to them and tell them you want to return it for a refund in US quarters? Probably not, since you're talking about exchanging the Canadian currency for US currency, not receiving a refund for a product purchased.

Ok but does that mean Canadian quarters are redeemable at that merchant?

If that merchant just handed me a Canadian quarter, I have every right to ask them to exchange it for an American quarter and I haven't met one that won't (the tolls up here wouldn't read Canadian quarters right for the longest time, so I was always checking them). And if that merchant won't do it, then I can go to a bank and do it. LD used to allow exchange (of the LD) and state that they will again in the future, as well as the fact that they are encouraging merchants to do it.

But, under your theory, if I get an LD back as change from a merchant, I have to demand a refund? I can't just exchange it for USD? Perhaps I'm just putting words in your mouth, because I thought you were more logical than to imply that a private currency is a product and not a currency.

That's a different kind of exchange. More importantly what exactly does that have to do with refunding someone's money that is dissatisfied with an exchange vs. saying you'll redeem something from something else.

Because, last I checked, you can only get refunds on products or services purchased, not currency you received as part of change on a transaction.

Now, if I purchased the LD from the merchant (gave $20 FRN for $20 LD)... LD clearly wants this to be a currency exchange not a purchase of product as indicated by his assertion that currency changes are not subject to sales tax... So again, no product or service purchased...not a refund.

But that doesn't mean you're redeeming $20 FRN for $20 LD does it? lol

I think I get what you're saying, but I have an issue with it. Redeem means to "buy back" or to "exchange." They are synonymous. My mind must be going today, as I should have said that sooner.

And just because you can exchange one way does not imply you can exchange the other unless specifically told so. For instance I can buy a diamond from a dealer, that does not imply or mean I can take that diamond back a year later and "redeem" it for FRN's.

I could have sworn I was discussing currency exchange, not purchase of product (ie. said diamond).

ETA: Actually, we were talking about redemption, and based on LD's assertion that it is a currency and that he talks about the purchase of LD being a currency exchange, and the fact that redemption is another word for exchange... Well, now I know why I'm talking about currency exchange.

Steve, out of curiosity, do you agree or disagree that the purchase of the LD is a currency exchange?

I know we differ on whether or not turning it in for a $20 FRN is a refund or exchange. I believe the difference lies in that, in the case of turning in a LD for FRN, you consider "redeem" to be synonymous with "refund" and I consider it to be synonymous with "exchange." And while I don't necessarily think that you're wrong to consider "redeem" and "refund" to be synonymous, I don't think that that particular definition of "redeem" fits since even LD itself is considering it a currency exchange as indicated in my initial post on the "redemption" subject.

[The Operative]

Now, if I purchased the LD from the merchant (gave $20 FRN for $20 LD)... LD clearly wants this to be a currency exchange not a purchase of product as indicated by his assertion that currency changes are not subject to sales tax... So again, no product or service purchased...not a refund.

But that doesn't mean you're redeeming $20 FRN for $20 LD does it? lol

And just because you can exchange one way does not imply you can exchange the other unless specifically told so. For instance I can buy a diamond from a dealer, that does not imply or mean I can take that diamond back a year later and "redeem" it for FRN's.

From the liberty dollar website...

Introducing the currency into circulation is not the hardest part of the program, but it is hard work, since you may visit many merchants repeatedly before you get the first one to sign onto the program! I employed a dynamic salesman for the purpose, after I signed up the first few Merchants. He proved to be a terrific asset, signing up dozens of merchants each week. And since the Merchant Contract does not require the merchant to purchase anything, I pay the salesman a moderate fee for each new merchant he signs up.

Once we had a few merchants on the program, I began spending Silver Libertys at their establishments and encouraged others to do so too. The merchants were instructed in how to offer them as "change". As a result many more Libertys started circulating around.

Once this process was working well, I held a number of "Special Days", when I would exchange Libertys for only $9.00 each in USD. These would be promoted for a few days before the event and would result in many exchanges at that rate. In addition, the merchants are permitted to exchange for limited amounts of Liberty Dollars at $8.50, so that they can realize additional profits by giving them out as "change".

This also started the Libertys coming back in to be exchanged for USD by the merchants, which is what makes the program feasible. In our first month of operation, I exchanged out $2890.00 in LD, and received back in $860.00. The second month saw $5630 go out, almost all in Silver Libertys, while $3490 came back in. The third moth when we had our salesman, $9240.00 went out in Liberty Dollars and only $2340.00 came back. The fourth month, as more merchants were on the program, $7800.00 went out and we got back only $1600.00. The fifth moth $10900.00 went out and $1450.00 came back. And the sixth month $10200.00 went out and only $990.00 came back.

As you can see, the program grows in increments. I�m sure we�ll have occasional months when we�ll see an inordinate amount come in, but we�re now have �sustainability� that is capable of making a tidy profit with the Liberty Dollar.

http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/rco/rco-handbook.htm

[SteveSy]

Now, if I purchased the LD from the merchant (gave $20 FRN for $20 LD)... LD clearly wants this to be a currency exchange not a purchase of product as indicated by his assertion that currency changes are not subject to sales tax... So again, no product or service purchased...not a refund.

But that doesn't mean you're redeeming $20 FRN for $20 LD does it? lol

And just because you can exchange one way does not imply you can exchange the other unless specifically told so. For instance I can buy a diamond from a dealer, that does not imply or mean I can take that diamond back a year later and "redeem" it for FRN's.

From the liberty dollar website...

Introducing the currency into circulation is not the hardest part of the program, but it is hard work, since you may visit many merchants repeatedly before you get the first one to sign onto the program! I employed a dynamic salesman for the purpose, after I signed up the first few Merchants. He proved to be a terrific asset, signing up dozens of merchants each week. And since the Merchant Contract does not require the merchant to purchase anything, I pay the salesman a moderate fee for each new merchant he signs up.

Once we had a few merchants on the program, I began spending Silver Libertys at their establishments and encouraged others to do so too. The merchants were instructed in how to offer them as "change". As a result many more Libertys started circulating around.

Once this process was working well, I held a number of "Special Days", when I would exchange Libertys for only $9.00 each in USD. These would be promoted for a few days before the event and would result in many exchanges at that rate. In addition, the merchants are permitted to exchange for limited amounts of Liberty Dollars at $8.50, so that they can realize additional profits by giving them out as "change".

This also started the Libertys coming back in to be exchanged for USD by the merchants, which is what makes the program feasible. In our first month of operation, I exchanged out $2890.00 in LD, and received back in $860.00. The second month saw $5630 go out, almost all in Silver Libertys, while $3490 came back in. The third moth when we had our salesman, $9240.00 went out in Liberty Dollars and only $2340.00 came back. The fourth month, as more merchants were on the program, $7800.00 went out and we got back only $1600.00. The fifth moth $10900.00 went out and $1450.00 came back. And the sixth month $10200.00 went out and only $990.00 came back.

As you can see, the program grows in increments. I�m sure we�ll have occasional months when we�ll see an inordinate amount come in, but we�re now have �sustainability� that is capable of making a tidy profit with the Liberty Dollar.

http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/rco/rco-handbook.htm

But the guy in that case was suing based on the argument that he would, as a promise, redeem them for USD. There's nothing saying he was required to or that he promised he would in all cases. It looks to me it was just for good customer service, just like an exchange at the store. There certainly wasn't a required policy set in place to redeem libbys for FRN's. In fact as you see above he's actually exchanging these at a loss in face value...lol Meaning you can buy a libby for less than its face value.

[SteveSy]

Steve, out of curiosity, do you agree or disagree that the purchase of the LD is a currency exchange?

I guess I would have to say it is.

I know we differ on whether or not turning it in for a $20 FRN is a refund or exchange. I believe the difference lies in that, in the case of turning in a LD for FRN, you consider "redeem" to be synonymous with "refund" and I consider it to be synonymous with "exchange." And while I don't necessarily think that you're wrong to consider "redeem" and "refund" to be synonymous, I don't think that that particular definition of "redeem" fits since even LD itself is considering it a currency exchange as indicated in my initial post on the "redemption" subject.

I'm only being technical because of the argument made by the plaintiff in that case. His argument was that NorFed made a promise and he based his acts upon those promises. Basically telling the merchant that he could take Libbys and redeem them for USD. That implies NorFed had a requirement to do so. NorFed made no such promise, if they "exchanged" at all it was simply for good customer service and nothing more. To redeem implies a set policy to exchange for a particular thing, like a coupon for instance. I don't see where NorFed had a policy to redeem Libbys like coupons, with one exception and that's if you wanted silver.

[Demosthenes]

I'm only being technical because of the argument made by the plaintiff in that case. His argument was that NorFed made a promise and he based his acts upon those promises. Basically telling the merchant that he could take Libbys and redeem them for USD. That implies NorFed had a requirement to do so. NorFed made no such promise, if they "exchanged" at all it was simply for good customer service and nothing more. To redeem implies a set policy to exchange for a particular thing, like a coupon for instance. I don't see where NorFed had a policy to redeem Libbys like coupons, with one exception and that's if you wanted silver.

From the Norfed site:

So in order to capitalize on that trend and set everyone's mind at ease, we have re-structured the ALD so that we can offer, in partnership with a network of Regional Currency Offices, an exchange for anyone who has Liberty Dollars to convert them to Federal Reserve Notes. Now you can tell anyone you give Liberty Dollars to, that they can exchange them for Federal Reserve Notes any time they want to, or they can redeem them for silver as well! Try that with those dreaded Federal Reserve Notes!

[SteveSy]

I'm only being technical because of the argument made by the plaintiff in that case. His argument was that NorFed made a promise and he based his acts upon those promises. Basically telling the merchant that he could take Libbys and redeem them for USD. That implies NorFed had a requirement to do so. NorFed made no such promise, if they "exchanged" at all it was simply for good customer service and nothing more. To redeem implies a set policy to exchange for a particular thing, like a coupon for instance. I don't see where NorFed had a policy to redeem Libbys like coupons, with one exception and that's if you wanted silver.

From the Norfed site:

So in order to capitalize on that trend and set everyone's mind at ease, we have re-structured the ALD so that we can offer, in partnership with a network of Regional Currency Offices, an exchange for anyone who has Liberty Dollars to convert them to Federal Reserve Notes. Now you can tell anyone you give Liberty Dollars to, that they can exchange them for Federal Reserve Notes any time they want to, or they can redeem them for silver as well! Try that with those dreaded Federal Reserve Notes!

Now that you posted something reasonable, what's the date on that? Did Norfed not exchange them as requested? Is this policy new or more importantly was it in effect when that case you posted was at issue? In that case you posted was the plaintiff trying to use that to justify misusing libbys as if they were USD?

[Demosthenes]

Norfed doesn't date the various changes to their website.

I simply googled

site:norfed.org redeem

and got dozens and dozens of hits along the lines of what I pasted.

[Mr. Mephistopheles]

To be honest I don't care what the content is, if I did I certainly wouldn't be taking FRN's. What matters is who is willing to take them.

[...]

Exactly why would you work to receive a slug worth about 3/100 of its face value in metal? If the bank hands you one of those new $1 coins that's what you're getting, you're stupid enough to take that, why do you?

Because I could take twenty of those "slugs" and exchange it for $20 worth of gold. The intrinsic value of the "slug", i.e. U.S. Currency, is inconsequential. Would you accept a cashier's check for $10,000 even though the paper it is printed on probably isn't worth $0.10?

People don't care what color their money is or even who prints it and long as its exchangeable that's what matters.

You're right. Show me the person that will exchange $20 in gold for a "$20" LD.

[SteveSy]

Norfed doesn't date the various changes to their website.

I simply googled

site:norfed.org redeem

and got dozens and dozens of hits along the lines of what I pasted.

I went back and looked at the case. I remember that deal.

The guy tried to just give them to the merchant without saying anything.

6. After 30 seconds, say, "I have US government legal tender money [show the cashier FRN cash], but would prefer to pay with silver." If the cashier hands it back immediately, you may ask her to show the currency to the manager, or just pay some other way.

[SteveSy]

To be honest I don't care what the content is, if I did I certainly wouldn't be taking FRN's. What matters is who is willing to take them.

[...]

Exactly why would you work to receive a slug worth about 3/100 of its face value in metal? If the bank hands you one of those new $1 coins that's what you're getting, you're stupid enough to take that, why do you?

Because I could take twenty of those "slugs" and exchange it for $20 worth of gold. The intrinsic value of the "slug", i.e. U.S. Currency, is inconsequential. Would you accept a cashier's check for $10,000 even though the paper it is printed on probably isn't worth $0.10?

Of course I would, because I can trade it for 10,000 worth of goods or services. If someone takes a $1000 libby then it too is worth $1000 because I got the services or merchandise to prove it.

Oh btw, 20 $1 dollar LD "slugs" would buy you about $200 in gold last time I looked if you sold them first.

Liberty Dollar sale

People don't care what color their money is or even who prints it and long as its exchangeable that's what matters.

You're right. Show me the person that will exchange $20 in gold for a "$20" LD.

Hand me a year 2000 $20 libby coin and I'll show you someone that will give me more than $20 in gold.

[Mr. Mephistopheles]

Of course I would, because I can trade it for 10,000 worth of goods or services.

Ten thousand of the "slugs" are also worth 10,000 worth of goods and services.

If someone takes a $1000 libby then it too is worth $1000 because I got the services or merchandise to prove it.

Hypothetically yes, but in the real world? I doubt it.

Hand me a year 2000 $20 libby coin and I'll show you someone that will give me more than $20 in gold.

How funny. What fool would exchange $20 in gold for a slug worth a few dollars in silver that has no other backing?

[SteveSy]

Of course I would, because I can trade it for 10,000 worth of goods or services.

Ten thousand of the "slugs" are also worth 10,000 worth of goods and services.

If someone takes a $1000 libby then it too is worth $1000 because I got the services or merchandise to prove it.

Hypothetically yes, but in the real world? I doubt it.

Look around, liberty dollars are exchanged all over the place for merchandise.

Hand me a year 2000 $20 libby coin and I'll show you someone that will give me more than $20 in gold.

How funny. What fool would exchange $20 in gold for a slug worth a few dollars in silver that has no other backing?

Because the year 2000 libby has $10 on it but contains 1oz of silver and is now worth almost $14 FRN, that's why. On eBay its probably worth $100 or more. That year 2000 FRN has lost value in the last 8 years.

If we had a choice between circulating a year 2000 libby and a year 2000 FRN as a nation we all would have been much better off circulating that libby. That's the truth of the matter, something you fail to accept.

Libbys or equivalent, over time, will almost certainly be a better choice over the FRN.

[Mr. Mephistopheles]

Look around, liberty dollars are exchanged all over the place for merchandise.

Then you shouldn't have any problem naming 10 retailers who accept libbies.

Because the year 2000 libby has $10 on it but contains 1oz of silver and is now worth almost $14 FRN, that's why.

Which is still $6 short of 20.

On eBay its probably worth $100 or more.

Then how do you explain the one currently listed for a Buy It Now price of $29.95?

If we had a choice between circulating a year 2000 libby and a year 2000 FRN as a nation we all would have been much better off circulating that libby. That's the truth of the matter, something you fail to accept.

Santa Clause really does fly a sleigh behind 8 tiny reindeer, something you fail to accept.

Libbys or equivalent, over time, will almost certainly be a better choice over the FRN.

Sure....

[Nikki]

Look around, liberty dollars are exchanged all over the place for merchandise.

All over the place?

Name two places in each state which accept libbies at face value for merchandise.

Then, explain how those places pay their suppliers without cashing the libbies back in for real money.