Where can I find the definition?

[Chemnor]

I have been actively following the Kahre trial. I have been trying to find the Congressional definition of a what a dollar is. I have been unable to do so.

I did find this:
American Jurisprudence, Volume 36, A§ 8
[T]he term "dollar" means money, since it is the unit of money in this country, and in the absence of qualifying words, it cannot mean promissory notes or bonds or other evidences of debt. The term also refers to specific coins of the value of one dollar . (27 Ohio Jur pp . 125, 126, A§ 3), (United States v . Van Auken, 96 US 366, 24 L ed 852)

Aren't Federal Reserve Notes promissory notes or other evidences of debt?

Black's law says:
Black's Law, Second Pocket Edition (1996)
Federal reserve note. The paper currency in circulation in the United States. The notes are issued by the Federal Reserve Banks, are effectively non-interest-bearing promissory notes payable to bearer on demand, and are issued in denominations of $1, $5, $10, $20, $50, $100, $500, $1,000, $5,000, and $10,000.

PAYABLE IN WHAT?

Title 18 A§ 8. says:
Obligation or other security of the United States defined The term ''obligation or other security of the United States" includes all bonds, certificates of indebtedness, national bank currency, Federal Reserve notes, Federal Reserve bank notes, coupons, United States notes, Treasury notes, gold certificates, silver certificates, fractional notes, certificates of deposit, bills, checks, or drafts for money, drawn by or upon authorized officers of the United States, stamps and other representatives of value, of whatever denomination, issued under any Act of Congress, and canceled United States stamps .

I have also tried to find out why gold and silver legal tender coins minted since 1986 CANNOT be used to determine the "fair market value" of other forms of money or property, or even foreign money.

Why can't a person calculate "fair market value" in whatever type of legal tender they want to? What law requires a person to use one particular kind of legal tender to calculate the "fair market value" or other forms of US currency pr foreign currency or property? I am not really interested in opinions or even in court opinions. I want to read what Congress wrote into law. Does anyone have that?

Wiki says gold clauses are in force and effect again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_clause
Congress later reinstated their use (gold clause) for obligations (new contracts) issued after October 1977 in accordance with 31 U.S.C. § 5118.

31 USC § 5118. Gold clauses and consent to sue
(a) In this section—
(1) “gold clause” means a provision in or related to an obligation alleging to give the obligee a right to require payment in—
(A) gold;
(B) a particular United States coin or currency; or
(C) United States money measured in gold or a particular United States coin or currency.

So doesn't the person writing the contract get to determine the "fair market value" of whatever the contract is selling?

So if I write a contract can I require it to be paid in Presidential One Dollar Coins or Silver dollars or gold dollars or Federal Reserve Notes as long as they are a particular United States coin or currency?

What law requires anyone to calculate "fair market value" in any "particular United States coin or currency"?

Thanks for any help I can get on this.

[Gregg]

Gold and Silver are commodities and are valued as such. The price of them on any given date can be determined, although there may be several sightly different prices and if so the person valuing them for tax purposes can get away with whichever spot price they want to determine it, under an accounting principle known as materiality, or in short, may be a dolar or so different depending on whether you choose, say London, Chicago or whatever exchange. The denominations stamped on US Gold and silver coins minted since 1986 are what the Treasury promises to forever redeem them for. Meaning, if Gold goes below $50 an once, those gold Eagles will be worth more! But they're still, for tax purposes, worth at least the difference between what you paid for them and the bullion value of them on the date of whatever transaction is relevant for tax purposes.

And the 5 pages of nonsense brought to us by Emperor Liar 1, (Gold and Silver Eagles, he of faked quotes) is really that simple. The value of them is determined by spot prices on the date of a transaction, UNLESS it ever gets below the face value on them, which is the absolute lowest value they can ever be because below face value the Treasury will give you that for them.

[LegalEagleMan]

Gold and Silver are commodities and are valued as such. The price of them on any given date can be determined, although there may be several sightly different prices and if so the person valuing them for tax purposes can get away with whichever spot price they want to determine it, under an accounting principle known as materiality, or in short, may be a dolar or so different depending on whether you choose, say London, Chicago or whatever exchange. The denominations stamped on US Gold and silver coins minted since 1986 are what the Treasury promises to forever redeem them for. Meaning, if Gold goes below $50 an once, those gold Eagles will be worth more! But they're still, for tax purposes, worth at least the difference between what you paid for them and the bullion value of them on the date of whatever transaction is relevant for tax purposes.

And the 5 pages of nonsense brought to us by Emperor Liar 1, (Gold and Silver Eagles, he of faked quotes) is really that simple. The value of them is determined by spot prices on the date of a transaction, UNLESS it ever gets below the face value on them, which is the absolute lowest value they can ever be because below face value the Treasury will give you that for them.

The Congress is authorized by the Constitution to set the value of money, standards and measures of. The Congress has completed that duty which is set in statutes.

Gold and silver are considered commodities, they are also considered money in most of the world. In the US, gold and silver is considered money by weights and measures as authorized by the Constitution, and stamped with the value of, as determined by Congress. An example of this would be 1oz U.S. gold eagles with a Fifty dollar face value and a current 1 oz. U.S. silver eagle with a One Dollar Face Value.

No trading post in any country of the world is authorized by the United States Constitution to set the value of money in the United States. The London bullion market does not set the value of United States money.

[Brandybuck]

Get out of the law books, and into the real world. Money is a general medium of exchange. Thus anything that is not generally accepted is not money. Your local grocer is NOT going to accept gold as payment. It's not a generally accepted medium of exchange. It's just too hard to convert to usable currencies. You might be able to trade the gold, but that is barter, not a monetary exchange.

Gold is not money, no matter how much the goldbugs insist it is.

[LegalEagleMan]

Get out of the law books, and into the real world. Money is a general medium of exchange. Thus anything that is not generally accepted is not money. Your local grocer is NOT going to accept gold as payment. It's not a generally accepted medium of exchange. It's just too hard to convert to usable currencies. You might be able to trade the gold, but that is barter, not a monetary exchange.

Gold is not money, no matter how much the goldbugs insist it is.

You apparently have not traveled the world much. I assure most of the world considers gold money. In some parts of the world, gold and silver are the only things accepted.

To me money is anything two or more people use as a standard to exchange. The farmers had no need for gold and silver until the King's came in to rob them, well what is the King going to do with extra food he doesn't need. So instead he demanded gold and silver for a variety of reasons.

Anyone having problem exchange gold and silver eagles for goods and services seems kind of strange, most people wouldn't want to part with them.

In the end, whether you or I like it, in the United States the Congress sets the value of "money". The definition of "money" is not a word Congress can change within it's authorized powers.

I can't say I am goldbug, it's fine, people use it. Once the credit system completely collapses, I would rather have food and the ability to make food. I certainly wouldn't say people would refuse gold and silver.

[LegalEagleMan]

I need some sleep, my writing looks like I have been up for 24 hours straight. Oh, I have been.
Goodnight for real.

[Chemnor]

Like I wrote: I am really uninterested in opinion. I am interested in what the law says. I don't care about getting out of the law books. I don't want to know what the guy at Wal-mart says a dollar is or what he thinks it is. Most people are idiots. I don't care what a judge thinks or what a lawyer tells me. I don't want to know want any employee of an Executive branch agency or department says a it is. I want to know what Congress requires the unit of monetary measurement to be used when determining "fair market value."

What is the monetary unit established by Congress to determine what "fair market value" is.

Which form of U.S. legal tender as found at 31 USC § 5103 is REQUIRED BY LAW to be used to determine "fair market value"?

Is it legal tender Presidential legal tender coins § 5112 (a)(1) or legal tender Federal Reserve Notes § 5103 or legal tender one ounce Silver coins § 5112 (e) or legal tender 50 dollar gold coins § 5112(a)(7) or Euros or Canadian dollars or thalers or sea shells?

I want to know what Congress says it is in clear and unequivocal language. I was hoping I could find it here as I have been unable to find it for years. I cannot get the answer from the U.S. Mint or my Senators or the Treasury or my Representative in Congress or my Governor or my State Treasurer. And yes. I have written to every one of them and many more. What I get is conflicting or down right evasive. One thing is 100% sure. No one has EVER given me the law that can tell me what a dollar is or what form of legal tender I am required by law to use when determining the "fair market value" of other the other forms of legal tender or property other than money.

I know that there used to be (The Coinage Act of April 2, 1792) a clear and unequivocal definition by Congress as to what a dollar is so I KNOW what I am looking for but I cannot find such a law today that defines what a dollar is. How is that possible? Law cannot be vague or it is not law.

Madison said: “It will be of little avail to the people, that the laws are made by men of their own choice, if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood; if they be repealed or revised before they are promulgated, or undergo such incessant changes that no man, who knows what the law is to-day, can guess what it will be to-morrow. Law is defined to be a rule of action; but how can that be a rule, which is little known, and less fixed?"

FIXED it the key word there because of what the supreme claw of the land says Congresss is supposed to do "To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

I know what a foot, yard, quart, inch, gallon, mile, meter, kilometer all are. There are not five different values for those measurements. They don't change from day to day so I can know what the measurement is to-day, need not guess what it will be to-morrow.

I know a penny is 1/100th of a dollar. But I do not know what a dollar is. It cannot be a one ounce silver coin that is legal tender and minted by the U.S. mint and at the same time be a Federal Reserve Note because that would be to say that a one inch was also a foot or that a kilometer is a mile.

So I need to know what a dollar is as declared by Congress. Not what some moron down at the 7/11 thinks it is or even what any of you think it is. I need to know what Congress says it is so that I can calculate the "fair market value" of all other forms of legal tender (money) and any property, other than money, that I receive in lieu of taxable wages, in the Congressionally required form authorized under Article 1 sec. 8 of the Constitution so that I can honestly believe it to be true and correct as to every material matter so that I do not commit perjury when required to make such calculation and tell the government on a 1040.

If you cannot give me the law then why even respond?

[notorial dissent]

I have been actively following the Kahre trial. I have been trying to find the Congressional definition of a what a dollar is. I have been unable to do so.
USC 31 § 5112
Aren't Federal Reserve Notes promissory notes or other evidences of debt?
No, they are neither, they are currency, backed by Treasury securities sold to cover their issue. The Treasuries are evidence of debt, the Federal Reserve Notes are currency.

And it is equally obvious that you don’t know what an obligation in this context is, it means something for which the gov’t is ultimately financially responsible.

I have also tried to find out why gold and silver legal tender coins minted since 1986 CANNOT be used to determine the "fair market value" of other forms of money or property, or even foreign money.
Equally obviously not very hard. The answer is that they are worth their face value plus whatever the price of gold happens to be at that moment, now is that too complicated for you, or are you just trying to not see that 2 + 2 = 4 ?

I am not really interested in opinions or even in court opinions.
I think the point is you are not really interested in anything that disagrees with what you want to believe. I fear you are in for a long and unhappy life as a result.

You can write a contract to do anything legal, the problem is getting someone else to agree to it. There is no law that says you have to be paid in any currency or format, you are free to chose whatever your fertile little mind can come up with as long as you can find someone to humor you. If you decide you want to be paid in pig bristles that is perfectly acceptable, but at some point you will have to figure out what pig bristles are worth, so that you don’t cheat yourself when you consummate this great deal, and equally the person paying you will have to figure out the going value so that you don’t cheat them either. Then, just for added fun, when you get done you get to figure out what your gain in pig bristles was worth and pay the income tax on your profit. Oh, and by the way, the IRS doesn’t accept pig bristles in payment, so you are going to have to convert your payment to something you can use to pay your bills and your taxes, and pay the conversion fee to do so.

[jg]

From the Law and Analysis section of Private Letter Ruling 200901026:

Section 985(a) of the Internal Revenue Code generally provides that all determinations for Federal income tax purposes shall be made in a taxpayer's functional currency. Sec. 985(a). Except as otherwise provided by ruling or administrative pronouncement, the U.S. dollar is the functional currency of a qualified business unit (QBU) that has the United States as its residence as defined in section 988(a)(3)(B). Treas. Reg. § 1.985- 1(b)(1)(iii). Treas. Reg. § 1.989(a)-1(b)(2)(i) provides that a corporation is a QBU.

Read the full private letter ruling at http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-wd/0901026.pdf

Title 26 Section 985 makes the dollar, except as provided in subparagraph (B), the functional currency of the taxpayer.
See http://www.taxalmanac.org/index.php/Int ... l_currency

As already posted, USC 31 § 5112 defines a dollar. One can use different coin or paper money (as you mentioned) to equal one dollar; so you already know that.

[Nikki]

Why the big hang-up about the dollar?

If you were to open your minds and ask the same questions about the euro, yuan, rupee, peso, or just about any other currency in the world, you would be able to answer your own questions and realize how inane they are.

For starters, what is the intrinsic value of one euro?

[LPC]

I want to know what Congress requires the unit of monetary measurement to be used when determining "fair market value."

What is the monetary unit established by Congress to determine what "fair market value" is.

31 USC 5101 declares that "United States money is expressed in dollars, dimes or tenths, cents or hundreths, and mills or thousandths. A dime is a tenth of a dollar, a cent is a hundredth of a dollar, and a mill is a thousandth of a dollar."

I need to know what Congress says it is so that I can calculate the "fair market value" of all other forms of legal tender (money) and any property, other than money, that I receive in lieu of taxable wages,

No, you don't, because you can't measure anything with a definition.

If you want know how hot it is outside, and I tell you that one degree Celsius is one one-hundredth of the difference between the temperature at which water freezes and the temperature at which water boils, that doesn't help you figure out what temperature it is outside because you still have no way of measuring temperature. The definition of one degree Celsius would be useful to know if you were building your own thermometer and needed to know how to calibrate it, but the definition would be unnecessary to you if you could buy a thermometer that was already calibrated.

"Fair market value" is determined by market prices, so you measure the fair market value of property you receive by comparing that property to similar properties being bought and sold in open markets. And you're in luck, because markets in the United States are already "calibrated" in dollars.

Problem solved.

[LPC]

Why the big hang-up about the dollar?

You know the answer already. It's just more whiny attempts at obfuscation by low-rent chiselers. They've gotten bored with asking where the IRC defines "income" so now they're asking where the USC defines "dollar."

[LegalEagleMan]

31 USC 5101 declares that "United States money is expressed in dollars, dimes or tenths, cents or hundreths, and mills or thousandths. A dime is a tenth of a dollar, a cent is a hundredth of a dollar, and a mill is a thousandth of a dollar."

The Constitution has already established what a "dollar" and "money" is. Congress can redefine anything and they haven't.

Congress has set the value of money by the weights and measures as specified by the Constitution. Congress does not "express" what dollars are, the define the measure of "dollars".

[LegalEagleMan]

"Fair market value" is determined by market prices, so you measure the fair market value of property you receive by comparing that property to similar properties being bought and sold in open markets. And you're in luck, because markets in the United States are already "calibrated" in dollars.

Sorry but no market sets the value of money nor does it set the measurements that may be used. The market does set what you can get for the "money" standardized. Congress is authorized to set the value of, and set the using standardized weights and measures.

And you're in luck, because markets in the United States are already "calibrated" in dollars

They sure have. Performing their duties as outlined by the Constitution. Sounds good to me.

[Nikki]

Sorry but no market sets the value of money ...

Really? I'm sure that there are is a huge number of international currency traders and speculators who would seriously disagree with you.

[Judge Roy Bean]

... I know what a foot, yard, quart, inch, gallon, mile, meter, kilometer all are. There are not five different values for those measurements. They don't change from day to day so I can know what the measurement is to-day, need not guess what it will be to-morrow.

Well, just go pick up a foot. Start carrying around some inches. Better yet, pick up a mile while you're at it.

... I need to know what Congress says it is so that I can calculate the "fair market value" of all other forms of legal tender (money) and any property, other than money, that I receive in lieu of taxable wages, ...

No, you don't need to "know what Congress says it is." It is what it is. Determining "fair market value" of all of the items you list is routine and a fairly simple matter. Their worth is driven by whatever someone will pay you for them and/or whether or not they are depreciable.

... so that I can honestly believe it to be true and correct as to every material matter so that I do not commit perjury when required to make such calculation and tell the government on a 1040.

If you cannot give me the law then why even respond?

Because you really don't want to understand the issue. For years you have been working on a twisted theory that you want to use as yet another goofy tax protester argument.

Simple solution - use your own theory to determine what the values are and see what happens if you're prosecuted when you argue that you need to know what Congress says it is.

Until you've tested it in court, you're wasting your time. And ours.

[LegalEagleMan]

Really? I'm sure that there are is a huge number of international currency traders and speculators who would seriously disagree with you.

Read slowly.

The market set what you get for your "money". Congress sets the value of "money" with weights and measures for standardization. One oz. of gold will always be one oz. of gold.

[iplawyer]

Get out of the law books, and into the real world. Money is a general medium of exchange. Thus anything that is not generally accepted is not money. Your local grocer is NOT going to accept gold as payment. It's not a generally accepted medium of exchange. It's just too hard to convert to usable currencies. You might be able to trade the gold, but that is barter, not a monetary exchange.

Gold is not money, no matter how much the goldbugs insist it is.

You apparently have not traveled the world much. I assure most of the world considers gold money. In some parts of the world, gold and silver are the only things accepted.

To me money is anything two or more people use as a standard to exchange. The farmers had no need for gold and silver until the King's came in to rob them, well what is the King going to do with extra food he doesn't need. So instead he demanded gold and silver for a variety of reasons.

Anyone having problem exchange gold and silver eagles for goods and services seems kind of strange, most people wouldn't want to part with them.

In the end, whether you or I like it, in the United States the Congress sets the value of "money". The definition of "money" is not a word Congress can change within it's authorized powers.

I can't say I am goldbug, it's fine, people use it. Once the credit system completely collapses, I would rather have food and the ability to make food. I certainly wouldn't say people would refuse gold and silver.

You are still an idiot. I seriously doubt you've traveled anywhere outside the US. If you did - you would know that grocery stores in other countries take credit cards and paper money. They do not take gold.

[LegalEagleMan]

No, you don't need to "know what Congress says it is." It is what it is. Determining "fair market value" of all of the items you list is routine and a fairly simple matter. Their worth is driven by whatever someone will pay you for them and/or whether or not they are depreciable.

Congress has already set the value of. No other entity is authorized to set the value of United States "money", unless that portion of the Constitution is a figment of everyone's imagination.
The standardization of the money supply is a duty of the Congress, they have completed their duty and authorized the manufacturing of "dollars" in accordance to the the United States Constitution.

The Congress could easily reset the value of "money" based on weights and measures, they do it all the time. Now like one naive poster said, it's the fault of Congress not to set value of such higher. Well, than you would have to believe in skittle farting unicorns because the financial system ran out of "money" to support itself in the 1930s in the US for domestic payment. By the late 1950s the system ran out of "money" to support transactions in foreign trade, by the early 70s France called in their bets. The US defaulted on it's obligation for that Nixon declaring such in 1971. The system ran out of "money" to support the system many decades ago.

- Federal Reserve Notes are simply credit in the form of non-bearing promissory notes.
- Federal Reserve Notes are redeemable for "lawful money" but the system ran out of "money" so no redemption can take place. 12 USC 411
- Federal Reserve Notes are simply bills of credit that circulate as money because the system ran out of "money". I have no problem with people trading pieces of paper.

[LegalEagleMan]

You are still an idiot. I seriously doubt you've traveled anywhere outside the US. If you did - you would know that grocery stores in other countries take credit cards and paper money. They do not take gold.

I am an idiot, yet I am not the one resorting to name calling because I have nothing else better to say.

All kinds of people in the world take gold. To say otherwise would be just silly. Now you start up with the name calling again, it's seem to be your ace card.