Dean Clifford - A Tale of Two Gurus

[Burnaby49]

As for whether or not Clifford is posing as a contractor, one thing we can be certain of is that he wasn’t posing as an accountant or a lawyer (even with his puny arms he still wouldn’t pass for one of those white collar weaklings, eh, Burnaby) so we can be assured no one has a reason to believe he is in any way qualified to give legitimate legal advice about tax or anything else.

Very hurtful but sadly true, as this picture of me with an ex-girfriend show;



Apart from that I have to admit that I agree with just about everything you said in your posting. I have no sympathy for the Cari-Lees of the world. Their quest for perfect gurus is self-destructive. The Cliffords and Annetts feed on suckers like her.

[LordEd]

LordEd, Clifford was arrested at a seminar, not because of it. Trying to imply otherwise is just feeding into the Freeman nonsense that he’s some sort of political prisoner who is being prosecuted for expressing an opinion against the system. You should try not to do that, eh.

Didn't think I was implying that. He was arrested at a seminar on a canada wide warrant. The topic of the seminar was related to techniques that he was not able to successfully use for his own arrest and conviction. $150/head for useless information claimed to be 'the truth'

[arayder]

And arayder, maybe if you didn’t sensationalise these common criminals you wouldn’t feel like they’re being trivialised when bought down to earth. You may like referring to them in fanciful, emotive and ultimately meaningless terms like “lawless gurus” but I think common criminal suits much better since that’s all they are. Trying to portray Clifford as a special sort of criminal is no better than what the Freeman crowd do when they try to claim he’s a political prisoner -- both nothing more than sensational nonsense.

So we are agreed that Dean is a criminal.

I was being gentle earlier. I believe you are not only trivializing freeman criminality. I believe you are their apologist, their enabler. After all you are the one who implied Dean's story was only about ". . .some growing of marijuana, a stash of illegal guns, some over-consumption of alcohol and a shoot up, a bit of physical assault on a police officer. . . ".

In the case of Clifford, I think most people would agree that being convicted on 14 charges while simultaneously running a PR/fund raising effort on the web is hardly the profile of a common criminal. Likewise filing a blizzard of useless, arcane freeman court documents while simultaneously publicly cussing out judges and threatening jail house cops is hardly the profile of a common criminal.

Maybe if you didn’t trivialize freeman criminals you wouldn’t feel like their crimes are being sensationalized when they are bought to justice.

[k1w1]

@rayder, running a PR/fundraising effort on the Net is neither a criminal offence nor does it make extraordinary or special a person who has committed some common crimes. And filing a blizzard of useless papers and cussing at judges etc. only makes him belligerent and stupid and a nuisance, not extraordinary or special. Your characterisation is nothing more than fanciful hyperbole, nothing more than inflated nonsense, and apart from you and the Freeman crowd, I doubt there are many people in this world who would ever consider Dean Clifford to be in any way special.

And how on Earth do you imagine I’ve ever “enabled” these people? I’m not god, you know.

The topic of the seminar was related to techniques that he was not able to successfully use for his own arrest and conviction. $150/head for useless information claimed to be 'the truth'

So what? It doesn’t follow that the people who attended the seminar were being scammed or duped.

LEd, you’re like an atheist scientist who can’t understand why an evangelical congregation doesn’t abandon their creationist preacher when you and your colleagues lay out irrefutable proof that their guru is full of shit. That’s because you don’t understand the congregation’s mens rea (is that the correct legal term for a person’s state of mind when they’re doing something?) and because their idea of what should be the truth is completely at odds with your idea of what is the truth.

Those people were not paying for a reality check; they’re not there to learn how to obey the law. No, those people were paying to hear someone put into words what was already in their minds; they were paying to hear someone express the anger and the indignation and the frustration and the hatred they feel towards the system; they were paying to be part of the recusant Dream -- and Dean delivers. And for them, Dean getting arrested and prosecuted is only proof or confirmation that everything they believe about the wicked system is correct.

You see, they don’t think like you do when they’re in communion.

It’s only you who seems think they should be disappointed for what they received. If they were genuinely seeking legitimate legal information they would have gone to a seminar held by a qualified lawyer or accountant (or someone who they have reason to believe is qualified to give legitimate legal information) rather than attend a seminar by someone who doesn’t even pretend to be a legitimate lawyer or accountant. So why do you think they would feel disappointed that they didn’t in fact receive legitimate legal information? In fact, I’d say they’d be disappointed if they did receive legitimate legal information since they disdain that stuff and always wilfully dismiss it.

The people who attend those seminars and people like Cari-Lee get what they ask for. And I don’t say that in a mean-spirited way: They really do get what they ask for; they’re getting what they wanted.

Preaching pseudo-legal nonsense and profiting from it (i.e. being a Freeman guru) is only a scam in the sense that preaching and making an income from religious nonsense is a scam -- damned distasteful to some rational sensibilities, to be sure, but not illegal -- though it’s one thing to preach to a congregation Thou shalt not suffer a witch… and quite another thing to go off a kill some hippies prancing under the light of the moon.

One could observe, indeed, that making a profit from Freeman nonsense might be the only thing it’s actually good for…

[Hyrion]

running a PR/fundraising effort on the Net is neither a criminal offence

Specifically within the context of a "fundraising effort on the net" - you're correct, it isn't in itself a criminal offense - but within the context of "what" it was about could very well be. A fundraising seminar on the various methods one could commit murder identifying a very specific individual and making it clear there was a price on his/her head <- I'd say that would be very criminal indeed with the presenter being considered to be in collusion for the assassination. Just an example of how the "what it is about" could very well make it a criminal act.

The topic of the seminar was related to techniques that he was not able to successfully use for his own arrest and conviction. $150/head for useless information claimed to be 'the truth'

So what? It doesn’t follow that the people who attended the seminar were being scammed or duped.

Actually, I'd say it does.

First: Whether or not something is criminal is not up to the monority (or in this "dean's seminar" example, the victims) to generally decide, but the majority. And presenting something as truth knowing it is not is deceit. To then sell that as though it's true is basic fraud. And to defraud someone makes that person a dupe/scam victim. Of course, this is my humble opinion and not a decision (yet) of a Court Of Law.

Just because that person doesn't realize it, or later on when they do realize it they are too embarassed to go to the authorities - doesn't somehow change the fact the person was scammed. I agree that without a victim to step forward in such situations it's much much more difficult for the authorities to get a conviction - but difficulty in acquiring a conviction does not change what happened.

Those people were not paying for a reality check; they’re not there to learn how to obey the law. No, those people were paying to hear someone put into words what was already in their minds;

Some of them are. And, to use a metaphore: a bank robber listening to another bank robber talk about how to get away with breaking the Law doesn't alter the reality that the bank robber giving the seminar isn't a criminal, isn't (necessarily) commiting a crime, isn't involved in an act of fraud against his fellow criminal.

Even the fellow criminal who is trusting to receive valid information when that information has been proven to fail is being defrauded. Of course, in reality they generally have other was to deal with such things rather than go to the authorities.

It’s only you who seems think they should be disappointed for what they received.

Personally I'd prefer if you didn't speak for me - Thanks! I'm neither you nor Lord Ed. I happen to agree mostly with Lord Ed with regards what's being presented. I haven't formed an opion with regards whether or not he's exaggerating as you seem focused on presenting. But he's not the "only" one who thinks those that paid to listen to Dean speak should be disappointed with what they received.

So why do you think they would feel disappointed?

The fact that Dean keeps presenting the situation as him winning when the reality is quite different would be a pretty good reason they should be disappointed.

The people who attend those seminars and people like Cari-Lee get what they ask for.

For those who have "drunk the kool-aid" I'd agree. And until they choose to listen to reason (rather than discount it as coming from paid servents) they'll keep going further down the rabbit hole.

[arayder]

@rayder, running a PR/fundraising effort on the Net is neither a criminal offence nor does it make extraordinary or special a person who has committed some common crimes. And filing a blizzard of useless papers and cussing at judges etc. only makes him belligerent and stupid and a nuisance, not extraordinary or special. Your characterisation is nothing more than fanciful hyperbole, nothing more than inflated nonsense, and apart from you and the Freeman crowd, I doubt there are many people in this world who would ever consider Dean Clifford to be in any way special.

And how on Earth do you imagine I’ve ever “enabled” these people? I’m not god, you know.

There you go moving the goal posts again. The question at hand is not whether Dean's PR efforts and filings are criminal. I never said they were.

The point is that Dean's conviction on 14 serious charges along with his PR/fund raising efforts, court filings, sassing of judges and threats to kill cops are hardly the profile of a common criminal.

You have confused stupid with common. Just because a hubcap thief and Dean may be equally stupid doesn't mean they are equally "common".

The fact that you chose to ignore my real point and misstated my argument indicates that you didn't have a counter to my post. It's as if you accepted my argument, but felt compelled to post something in reply.

Substance please, k1w1.

[rumpelstilzchen]

k1w1 wrote:

Trying to portray Clifford as a special sort of criminal is no better than what the Freeman crowd do when they try to claim he’s a political prisoner -- both nothing more than sensational nonsense.

I would disagree. I would say that Dean is not your average criminal. Most criminals IMO would recognise that their criminal actions are indeed criminal. They may very well deny doing what they have been accused of doing but I doubt they would claim that such criminal actions do not contravene law and are in fact lawful. A career criminal goes to great lengths to avoid being caught because he knows he has broken the law and could be punished. Clifford is different. He does not deny what he has been accused of because, in his mind, he believes his actions do not contravene law. He does not believe he is bound by the law. A common criminal knows that he is bound by the law but chooses to break it and knows he is breaking it.

[LordEd]

I actually see being arrested at/after the seminar as more ironic than anything. Much like a psychic convention being cancelled due to unforseen circumstances.

The groundwork for the broader scam was set long before anyone heard of Dean. They bought into the idea that 'they' are hiding the truth so the only real source is someone like dean because the accountants and lawyers have been trained to lie.

Personally I think the whole truth movement would be a great government conspiracy to keep opposition occupied with pointless exercises of futility that the general population can dismiss as lunacy.

[bmxninja357]

I don't think dean is any different than the average crook. He is not smart, lacks a basic work ethic, feels the world owes him a living, uses people, has no remorse for his crimes, acts like a baby when he dosent get his way.
Common traits.

The thing is most people don't realize he is just like the huckster preachers of days gone by. Tell the people what they want to hear, sell them some bibles, holy water, blessings and get all the free lunches you can. Throw in a few staged faith healings and you got a heck of a scam.

Deans charges stem from a criminal activity not related to his travelling salvation show. He was not arrested for his beliefs. There was no usable defence in normal law. He got caught red handed. And like any dumb criminal with a camera he filmed his actual crimes. He might as well use the opca defence. Even with a lawyer that dosent change the minimums for the charges. He was pooched either way.

He is just laying the groundwork for his salvation show upon his release.


Peace
Ninj

[Wake Up! Productions]

Dean made reference to some threats/promises in the first part of the video. Does anybody know what those threats were?

I don't think it is anything on the violent side of things. I think he may be referring to suing the pants off of everyone who he claims has "harmed" him, including Justice Chris Martin. If I am not mistaken, aren't Judges are immune from civil liability in deliberating criminal cases, just the same as Jurors are?

Dean has had this fantasy in his head for years that he is eventually going to get this billion dollar settlement, which will then fund his new country - "Freelandia" !!!

[arayder]

. . . I would say that Dean is not your average criminal. Most criminals IMO would recognise that their criminal actions are indeed criminal. They may very well deny doing what they have been accused of doing but I doubt they would claim that such criminal actions do not contravene law and are in fact lawful. A career criminal goes to great lengths to avoid being caught because he knows he has broken the law and could be punished. Clifford is different. He does not deny what he has been accused of because, in his mind, he believes his actions do not contravene law. He does not believe he is bound by the law. A common criminal knows that he is bound by the law but chooses to break it and knows he is breaking it.

I would agree and say that the above post points out another way in which Dean differs from common criminals.

I understand it went folks point out that he is like common criminals by virtue of their same punk arse attitudes and the nature of the laws they break. After all a crime is a crime.

[Wake Up! Productions]

I can't understand why Dean is so upset about the prospect of returning to jail. Didn't he say it was fine, with everyone hanging on his every word and the guards bringing him fresh fruit on silver trays?

In the first internet broadcast that he did upon being released on bail in March, he describes how everyone in prison gets along so well, because they have to in such close quarters. Funny, when he is in prison, everything is coming up roses, and when he is "free", he bad mouths going back to prison.

[Wake Up! Productions]

I can't understand why Dean is so upset about the prospect of returning to jail. Didn't he say it was fine, with everyone hanging on his every word and the guards bringing him fresh fruit on silver trays?

If he ends up getting sentenced to two years or more as he has the potential for, he would most likely spend his time at Stony Mountain which is a whole different place than Remand. Hmmmm.... white guy, abrasive personality, Stony Mountain - not a pleasant situation, I would advise him to make friends quickly.

For anyone wanting to know what it will be like for Dean in FEDERAL prison, he is a documentary film on the EXACT prison Dean will be serving his time at:

Serving Life - at Stony Mountain https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1Vbyhji4r4

[Wake Up! Productions]

Now it's getting to the point of being unreasonable and the forum management is allowing spliced videos to shown as "PROOF".

Haven't watched it, but I read that as a sarcastic "proof".

Does anybody who watched it here take that to be a literal "this is proof"?

Probably meets Freeman standards of proof... The header says so it must be 100% true.

Yes, it was meant as sarcastic "proof". To have actual proof that Dean is insane would be to have a qualified clinical diagnoses. You have to have catchy, eye-popping video titles on Youtube, in order to attract views.

[LordEd]

The Freeman dream is to live outside of society and have to pay nothing.

He wins on that count by being fully removed from society for a time with free rent and board.

Good job Dean, you're living the dream.

[Wake Up! Productions]

The thing is most people don't realize he is just like the huckster preachers of days gone by. Tell the people what they want to hear, sell them some bibles, holy water, blessings and get all the free lunches you can. Throw in a few staged faith healings and you got a heck of a scam.

You hit the nail right on the head. In my encounters with those who blindly defend Dean (or any other GURU for that matter), they do so without proof of any claims made by him, and faithfully defend him, despite evidence proving him wrong. Why? Because they don't want to admit that he is only telling them what they want to hear !!!

[Wake Up! Productions]

CCN has now posted the entire video, for anyone who wants to view this train wreck in full:

The Beginning Is Here with Dean Clifford - 11 September 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm33OsG0Qeg

[Wake Up! Productions]

Dean now has a "DONATION" drive going on his new site, and because it is through his site, there is no way to VERIFY the money coming in. Dean's site is claiming to have raised $1,265 out of $10,000.

[eric]

If he ends up getting sentenced to two years or more as he has the potential for, he would most likely spend his time at Stony Mountain which is a whole different place than Remand. Hmmmm.... white guy, abrasive personality, Stony Mountain - not a pleasant situation, I would advise him to make friends quickly.

For anyone wanting to know what it will be like for Dean in FEDERAL prison, he is a documentary film on the EXACT prison Dean will be serving his time at:
Serving Life - at Stony Mountain https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1Vbyhji4r4

A pretty relaxed perspective IMHO. Life is good if you're a lifer at Stony... right. Here's an interesting link about lifers in Canada who account for roughly 20% of the inmate population at Stony:
http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/pa/ev-ll/index-eng.shtml
hmmm, peaceful guys watching fishes <grins>, who somehow manage to average 2.5 institutional charges per inmate per month (minimum loss of privileges), or get placed in solitary 0.5 times per inmate per month.
I will admit this is coming from the perspective of someone whose evidence is anecdotal from contacts within the correctional system, but Stony is generally considered to be the toughest joint in Canada. Roughly 70% of the population is native and controlled by two seperate inmate gangs. The other "gang" is actually the lifers who guard their privileges closely. It is also the only institution in Canada, federal or provincial, in which the staff routinely carry mace or batons. Similarly, deadly force weapons, such as shotguns, are not normally evident at most Canadian institutions, but at Stony they are around all the time. Our friend Dean might get a bit of a surprise if he goes there, but perhaps his abrasive attitude is meant as a method of "psyching" himself up as a man not to be trifled with. Just as a bit of an aside, you can always tell an institutionalized inmate like the lifers at Stony by their body posture - even when seemingly relaxed they're always prepared for trouble.

[Jeffrey]

Only 40 minutes into the CCN thing and it is gold.