Mary Elizabeth Croft/Mary Wyly: Credit Card Crook Clobbered

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Mary Elizabeth Croft/Mary Wyly: Credit Card Crook Clobbered

Post by Hilfskreuzer Möwe »

I recently did some digging on prominent OPCA thinker Mary-Elizabeth: Croft and located some interesting material. Ms. Croft is the subject of a brief thread in the “TP Status Board” sub-forum (viewtopic.php?f=30&t=2893) but I thought it would be useful to have a separate and dedicated message thread on Ms. Croft’s legal court activities here in the Canada given the elevated status she has in Freeman-on-the-Land and Freeman-derived OPCA groups. As an example of the latter, Ms. Croft has developed quite a following in the UK Freeman circles, even to the point she has her own Facebook fan group:
Get Out Of Debt Free highlights her as a key authority (http://www.getoutofdebtfree.org/Mary-Elizabeth-Croft).

I have had some difficulty tracking Ms. Croft’s historical activity and background. There is no evidence of which I am aware of Ms. Croft holding seminars for pay in Canada, or selling materials or advice. The only instance of a seminar of that kind which I located is this brief discussion on the Cult Education Institute web forum which reports seminars in Australia with a $50.00 entrance fee (http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?4,17380).

Instead, her more recent contribution is three-fold.

She maintains a blog, Spiritual Economics Now (http://spiritualeconomicsnow.net) where she periodically post comments. While I read these on occasion I can’t say there’s much in the way of discrete ideas or, for example, approaches to specific issues such as debt collection. Instead, her blog commentary tends to address more general points, for example commentary on alleged conspiracies, points of what might be called OPCA theory, such as “what is law”, and occasionally references on Freeman-on-the-Land and associated groups and leaders.

For example, Croft recently wrote on the importance of “minister” Belanger of CERI’s videos (http://spiritualeconomicsnow.net/?p=409). On another occasion she sternly criticizes OPCA affiliates who horde and sell ‘secret information’, rather than sharing their knowledge and solutions (http://spiritualeconomicsnow.net/?p=401). That said, in her very first blog post she does say this:
If you are interested in a interim, non-commercial, financial remedy to the imminent economic shift, go to: http://www.spiritualeconomicsnow.net/remedy
But that simply leads to this little notice:
For more infomation on this contact Mary at

lovelaughlearn22@gmail.com

Thanks

Mary
However, in the past this link was to a telemarketing pyramid scheme of some kind (http://web.archive.org/web/200803030050 ... et/remedy/) (https://web.archive.org/web/20130820075 ... form1.html). This has set off the alarm bells of at least some of her readership (http://getoutofdebtfree.org/forum/viewt ... 10&t=25754).

Her second major contribution is an Internet “radio” interview with Red Ice Creations which dates to around August, 2008 (http://spiritualeconomicsnow.net/?p=18):
This recording has subsequently been adapted into various YouTube videos which are widely referenced in the OPCA community.

And of course there’s Ms. Croft’s primary claim to fame, her book “HOW I CLOBBERED EVERY BUREAUCRATIC CASH-CONFISCATORY AGENCY KNOWN TO MAN ... a Spiritual Economics Book on $$$ and Remembering Who You Are” which is available for download from her website: http://www.spiritualeconomicsnow.net/so ... w_I_08.pdf

The current version indicates it was updated in August of 2008, however Ms. Croft’s website has an earlier edition:
I have not compared the texts to see what changes were made between those editions.

“How I Clobbered…" has been frequently referenced as a key authority throughout the evolution of the Freeman-on-the-Land movement, and I am not aware of any substantial criticism of its content by promoters in that general group. Put another way, this is about as close as one gets to a “Freeman Bible”. Ms. Croft has a similar high status, a 'Moses on the Mount'.

In Croft’s blog she occasionally mentions in very general ways her interaction with government, legal, police, and bank authorities. That, however, has omitted a key point – she has, in fact, while in Canada tested out her concepts to eliminate debt, and had those rejected by the Alberta Court of Queen’s Bench.

This leads to a second tidbit; Ms. Croft operates under a second name: Mary Wyly.
I believe this is her current name and that at some point she married an individual named “Richard Wyly”, who I’ll return to at a later point since he also appears to be a potential subject of interest. "Mary Elizabeth Croft" is her maiden name.

The registration for the http://spiritualeconomicsnow.net website provides an address, 104A Boulder Crescent, Canmore, Alberta, which is a business, Rocky Mountain Auto Glass (http://www.rockymountainautoglass.ca/), owned by Richard Wyly (http://www.rockymountainautoglass.ca/pages/aboutus.html).

The 2005 obituary of Croft's father also links her to the name Mary Wyly (https://www.ogs.on.ca/ogspi/2005/05cro002.htm).

However, if there was any question of this dual identity (well, triple identity when we work in some Strawmen), that is clarified in the litigation discussed below. To the best of my knowledge Ms. Croft/Wyly has not publically acknowledged she was the subject of a legal action in the Alberta Court of Queen’s Bench around the time she was promoting her book:
  • Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce v. Mary Wyly, also known as Mary Croft: Docket No. 0603 01720.
A Statement of Claim filed on Feb. 3, 2006 (http://www.mediafire.com/view/l68d7fxm3 ... 0Claim.pdf). It indicates that Croft/Wyly obtained two Visa credit cards from the CIBC, then ran up over $5,000.00 in charges on each, and has not paid the balance. CIBC sued to collect the outstanding amounts.

Nothing unusual hear, just a typical credit card debt collection lawsuit. What is interesting is what’s found in the April 6, 2007 supporting affidavit of Mary D’Alessio (http://www.mediafire.com/view/0pfipjgc0 ... idavit.pdf). I have not uploaded the entire affidavit as much of it are credit card agreement documents, credit card records, and so on. The affidavit indicates that in May 2002 a “Mary Wyly” of 7 1021 Wilson Way, Canmore, Alberta applied for and obtained a Visa credit card with at least a $4,200.00 limit. The following month a “Mary E. Croft” of the same address applied for a Visa credit card with a $4,500.00 limit.

Summarizing the Visa records, the Wyly card was used in 2002, and initially the amounts owed were all paid on time. There is nothing in these records to suggest the card owner was engaged in anything odd. However, as 2002 progresses the card balance increases, and on Nov. 3, 2002 a cheque to pay the credit card debt bounced. At that point the outstanding amount was over $3,800. No further payments were made, and on Jan. 2003 the Visa card was suspended.

The Mary E. Croft credit card was first charged in June, 2003 and it shows a more nefarious pattern of use. Each month a substantial debt was incurred, and "Croft" made only the minimum payment required:
  • Aug 2003 - $10 payment – Balance at $1,301.05
    Sept 2003 - $39 payment - Balance at $1,834.26
    Oct 2003 - $55 payment - Balance at $2,173.40
    Nov 2003 - $65 payment - Balance at $2,649.42
    Dec 2003 - $79 payment - Balance at $3,167.20
    Jan 2003 – no payment made - Balance at $4,564.59
Interestingly, in mid Dec. 2003 "Croft" makes $1,100.00 in cash advance charges against the card, which pretty much maxed it out.

Now, perhaps I’m a suspicious soul, but while I’m willing to agree the Wyly card records potentially indicate a person who is running behind on their credit but otherwise attempting to play the bank fair, the Croft credit card record is a clear record of a person who never intended to pay a cent on the amounts charged, beyond the minimum payment necessary to keep the wolves at bay.

The purchases on both cards are banal – liquor stores, restaurants, department stores, a yoga club, etc. There is no indication Croft/Wyly was facing some emergency – these were ‘lifestyle’ purchases.

If there is any question that Croft/Wyly might not be our subject then that is dispelled by documents attached to the D’Alessio affidavit sent by Croft/Wyly in response to CIBC’s attempts to collect. The first are found at Exhibit H, a set of documents mailed to CIBC in late 2003-early 2004. The document scans are a little grotty so I’ll reproduce them, but without attempting to maintain all the formatting:
[CIBC Collections Address]

Re: 0247 3960

MARY E WYLY©®TM
7-1021 Wilson Way
Canmore AB T1W 3C5
December 30, 2003

Equality is Paramount and Mandatory under the Law

Dear Mr. McDonald:

I am in receipt of your letter of December 10, 2003, in which you declare that you have “reduced the credit limit on this account to $4,200”. Please be advised that I do not give you permission to be involved in my commercial affairs. You and I both know that the credit on that account was created by Me (only my signature is on the note), it belongs to me, only I have access to it, and only I can close the account. I am competent to handle my own affairs. You have no right to make use of the card or my credit. It appears you are practicing law without a licence – I did not and do not give you permission to make a legal determination about me. Your interference constitutes a trespass and has been construed as theft. You have stolen my exemption. I direct your attention to the Criminal Code of Canada.

PART IX OFFENCES AGAINST RIGHTS OF PROPERTY – Offences Resembling Theft.

Public servant refusing to deliver property

337. Every one who, being or having been employed in the service of Her Majesty in right of Canada or a province, or in the service of a municipality, and entrusted by virtue of that employment with the receipt, custody, management or control of anything, refuses or fails to deliver it to a person who is authorized to demand it and does demand it is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years.

39. (1) Every one who is in peaceable possession of a personal property under a claim of right, and every one acting under his authority, is protected from criminal responsibility for defending that possession, even against a person entitled by law to possession of it, if he uses no more force than is necessary.

I demand you return, to the account, the credit which, by commercial law, belongs to me – or prepare to provide, either voluntarily or via subpoena, one of the many Equity/Commercial Courts of this country, the following.
  • 1) a valid contract between MARY E WYLY and CIBC evidencing financial liability; (be advised that section 25 of the Bills of Exchange Act of Canada states that a fictitious party (CIBC) is unable to contract) – all Law is commercial and all commerce is based on contract.

    2) validation (documentation of the accounting) of the debt against which you allege ‘minimum monthly payment’ is required;

    3) verification (a sworn, witnessed Affidavit signed by you under full commercial liability) of your claim.

    4) Precise pay-out figure stated in lawful money of account which will be accepted as full and final payment.
Please be advised also that the tradename MARY E WYLY©®TM is my copyrighted property and any unauthorized use, e.g., a negative remark from you to any credit reporting agency, and will result in an invoice from me in the amount of $1,000,000.00 USD per use per person.

I expect my credit to be returned to my account immediately. Failure on your part to do so and/or to provide the above-listed documentation by January 12, 2004, to the below-listed location, will constitute a dishonor, thereby denying you legal standing, and will be your tacit agreement that the account is ‘Paid in Full’ and that my status with your institution has been restored and I shall continue to conduct my commercial affairs accordingly.

Yours truly
Mary Elizabeth: Croft, agent, Title Owner
for MARY E WYLY©®TM, GRANTOR
c/o PMB #8498
Canmore, Alberta (T1W2V2)

Notice to the Agent is Notice to the Principle; Notice to the Principle is Notice to the Agent
As this matter is in Commerce I hereby reserve all my common law rights under UCC-1-207
[CIBC Collections Address]

Re: 0247 3960

MARY E WYLY©®TM
7-1021 Wilson Way
Canmore AB T1W 3C5
December 30, 2003

Equality is Paramount and Mandatory under the Law

NOTICE OF DISHONOUR

Dear Mr. Hunkin;

Thank you for your dishonor. Please find enclosed my letter of December 30, 2003, to CIBC in response to your having stolen $2,300.00 of my credit. Thirty (30) days have passed and I have not been provided any of the four (4) documents I requested. Therefore, consider this your formal Notice of Dishonour pursuant to commercial law. You can cure this dishonor by crediting to my account $2,300 which you stole.

According to commercial law your dishonor invalidates any future claim; your dishonor denies you any right or cause of action or any legal standing; your dishonour prohibits you from making any negative remarks about this account to any credit reporting agency; and if you have already done so, I demand you rescind said remarks to avoid future legal action.

Be advised, failure to credit my account $2,300 by January 30 constitutes your tacit agreement that you have fraudulently stolen my personal property. See s337, s39.1 (enclosed), and s19 (following) of the Criminal Code of Canada.

IGNORANCE OF THE LAW.
19. Ignorance of the law by a person who commits an offence is not an excuse for committing the offence (R.S., c.C-34, s. 19.)

Please be advised also that the tradename MARY E WYLY©®TM is my copyrighted property and any unauthorized use, e.g., a negative remark from you to any credit reporting agency, a will result in an invoice from me in the amount of $1,000,000.00 USD per use per person.

Additionally, any telephone calls from any CIBC representative will be construed as harassment.

Yours truly
Mary Elizabeth: Croft, agent, Title Owner
for MARY E WYLY©®TM, GRANTOR
c/o PMB #8498
Canmore, Alberta (T1W2V2)

Notice to the Agent is Notice to the Principle; Notice to the Principle is Notice to the Agent
As this matter is in Commerce I hereby reserve all my common law rights under UCC-1-207
The next correspondence from Wyly/Croft is a letter of April 27, 2004 (exhibit J):
John Hunkin, CBO, President
CIBC
3rd floor, Commerce Court East
Toronto, ON M5L 1A2

April 27, 2004

Re: 0247 3960 – MARY WYLY
0253 0272 – MARY CROFT

Sir;

I am in receipt of two identical letters from KRMC both dated March 31, 2004, which I have Accepted for their Assessed Value and Returned to Barbara Damm for Settlement and Closure of the Matter.

Her letters suggest that you relinquished title to the above-listed claims by selling them to her? If so, any contract that you might have had with WYLY and/or CROFT is now null and void and since Ms. Damm is unable to verify her claim by evidencing any financial liability on the part of ‘WYLY / CROFT’, it appears the matter is indeed settled and closed.

I presume you did not ‘charge-off’ said claims as tax deductions as you no longer have title to them and if you sold them, this would constitute being paid twice for each alleged claim. Since I never received from you a validation of debt or a verification of your claim, you are in dishonour which denies you any legal standing to make any negative remarks about ‘WYLY / CROFT’ to any credit reporting agency. Your failure to state a claim upon which relief can be granted denies you legal standing to state any future claim, to me or to CCRA or to any credit reporting bureau. Any negative report about ‘WYLY / CROFT’ will be construed as libel, defamation of character, and mail fraud. Fraud will result in triple damages. Please be advised that in thirty (30) days CCRA will be notified that you might have used my tax exemption for the purpose of enriching yourself at my expense and tht you are in possession of “unreported income”.

Govern yourself accordingly.

Yours Truly
[signature]
Mary Elizabeth: Croft, agent for
WARY WYLY / MARY E CROFT
c/o General Delivery
Canmore, Alberta (T1W 2V4)
The next relevant exhibit is an email from Ms. Croft herself (lovelaughlearn@shaw.ca) of March 12, 2005, to a Ms. Damm, who appears to be the lawyer attempting to collect on the outstanding debt:
Ms. Damm;
Then we are in agreement that there will be no further communication between us over my property: Mary E CroftTM and/or Mary WylyTM.
I shan’t even bother to return your letter of March 8 then, providing you understand that acceptance of it is denied for cause without dishonour to you or recourse to me for your failure to state a claim upon which relief can be granted.
As Notice to Agent is Notice to Principle is Notice to Principle is Notice to All Agents, therefore, if you or your client or any agent writes to me again, be advised that it will be construed as unauthorized use of my tradename/trademark and will result in an invoice from me in the amount of $500,000.00 per individual occurrence. See Notice by Declaration at the end of this letter.

I didn’t join Pavel’s class action lawsuit against you because I prefer to go after you myself for half a million if you send me any more laughable letters which suggest I contact ARC “to discuss payment arrangements”. I hereby declare, as you apparently did on June 15, this matter closed. Why are you writing again, nine months later?

BY: Mary Elizabeth: Croft, agent

...

Equality under law is paramount and mandatory by law
This is then followed by no less than 13 enthusiastic reviews of Ms. Croft’s “Clobbering…” text – not exactly a subtle hint that Ms. Croft/Wyly might be promoting her concepts – then that "Notice by Declaration" promised in the body of the email:
SECURITY AGREEMENT 72137-SA

NOTICE BY DECLARATION

TO ALL IT MAY CONCERN, PLEAE TAKE NOTICE: that the trade-name/trade-mark, MARY ELIZABETH CROFTTM and MARY WYLYTM as well as any and all variations/derivatives in the spelling of said trade-name/trade-mark is hereby declared. No part of the autograph trade-name/ trade-mark, MARY ELIZABETH CROFTTM and MARY WYLYTM may be used, displayed, or reproduced in any manner without prior, express consent of Mary Elizabeth: Croft, (“Secured Party”) with her duly acknowledged and original signature.

Violation of the expressed prohibition, by any juristic person, and/or their agents and/or assigns, (“User”) whether for use in commerce or otherwise, constitutes User’s indirect confession and confession of judgement of unauthorized use of said trade-name/trade-mark, contractually binds User, and signifies that User: (1) grants Secured Party a security interest in, and a distress warrant and lien against, User’s property and interest in property in the sum certain amount of $500,00.00 per each trade-name/trade-mark used, per each occurrence of use, plus treble damages, plus costs for each such use, as well as for each and every use of any and all derivatives and variations in the spelling of MARY ELIZABETH CROFTTM and MARY WYLYTM ; (2) authenticates a Security Agreement wherein User is debtor and Mary Elizabeth: Croft is Secured Party and User pledges all of User’s property and interest in property as collateral for securing User’s contractual obligation; (3) authenticates a UCC Financing Statement wherein User is debtor and Mary Elizabeth: Croft is Secured Party; (4) consents and agrees that said Financing Statement is a continuing financing statement, authorizing Secured Party’s filing of any continuation statement necessary for maintaining Secured Party’s perfected security interest in all of User’s property and rights in property pledged as collateral in the aforementioned Security Agreement, until User’s contractual obligation to Secured Party is satisfied in full; (5) authorizes the filing of the aforementioned UCC Financing Statement and Security Agreement in the UCC filing office by Secured Party; (6) consents and agrees that any and all such filings referenced in number (5) above are not and may not be considered bogus, that User will not claim said filing to be bogus, and; (6) waives all defences. User further consents and agrees to all of the following:

Payment Terms: In accordance with fees for unauthorized use of MARY ELIZABETH CROFTTM and MARY WYLYTM as set forth above, User hereby consents and agrees to pay Secured Party all unauthorized-use fees in full within five (5) days of receipt of Secured Party’s invoice, itemizing said fees.

Default Terms: In the event of User’s non-payment in full within the time limit specified above, User shall be deemed in default and all of [missing text] collateral becomes property of Secured Party.

Terms of Curing Default: Upon default as set forth above, User may cure User’s default if payment in full is received by Secured Party within twenty (20) days of said default.

Terms of Strict Foreclosure: User’s non-payment in full within twenty (20) days (failure to cure default) authorizes Secured Party’s immediate non-judicial strict foreclosure on all of User’s former property pledged as collateral for securing User’s contractual obligation as set forth hereinabove. Ownership subject to common-law copyright and UCC Financing Statement and Security Agreement filed with the State of Washington, UCC Division and PPSA Financing Statements and Security Agreements filed with Alberta Government Services and Ontario Ministry of Consumer and Business Services. Record Owner: Mary Elizabeth: Croft.
Well, that’s certainly … ironclad? Or perhaps not. There is no record of Ms. Croft/Wyly collecting on her name-based interest. Instead, on May 3, 2007, a default judgment was issued against Croft/Wyly for $14,774.92 (http://www.mediafire.com/view/49bx1cyt9 ... dgment.pdf). A writ of enforcement issued on May 18, 2007.

Also interesting is that Croft/Wyly may have been attempting to dodge debt collection, because attempts to serve Croft/Wyly at a succession of addresses led to statements by the current occupants that Ms. Croft/Wyly had indeed lived there but had subsequently moved, providing no forwarding address. Further, the D'Alessio affidavit documents how the only correspondence that reached Ms. Croft/Wyly was that sent to a General Delivery post-office box, rather than a residential address.

The affidavit also suggests that the reference to “Pavel’s class action lawsuit” is to an action in British Columbia advanced by OPCA guru John Ruiz Dempsey that was struck out in Dempsey et al. v. Envision Credit Union et al., 2006 BCSC 750 (http://canlii.ca/t/1n7qf). I suspect this is correct, but it is the first indication of which I am aware that Croft was involved with Dempsey.

A general review of Dempsey’s activities is found in Meads v. Meads, 2012 ABQB 571 at para. 109-120. In brief, Dempsey was a fake lawyer who claimed to have been trained in the Philippines, and who had a relatively short-lived but highly energetic career advancing lawsuits, some was on OPCA concepts, some just badly argued. His website can be viewed here (http://lege.net/blog.lege.net/financial ... index.html).

So there we have it – Ms. Croft/Wyly did in fact attempt to practice what she preached, and, to steal language from her writing, that led to her being “Clobbered by a Bureaucratic Cash-Confiscatory Agency.”

Back to Richard Wyly. It looks like at about the same time he too ran into issues, as the Federal Courts Database records an action to collect on an outstanding tax obligation:
  • ITA-5500-05 – ITA v. RICHARD WYLY (ROCKY MOUNTAIN AUTO GLASS)
This file has six documents. The Income Tax Act certificate was filed on May 17, 2005, along with a writ of seizure and sale to the Sheriff of Alberta on the same date. What caught my attention was an unnumbered entry described in this manner:
Letter from Respondent dated 15-JUN-2005 expressing concern over the Certificate filed received on 15-JUN-2005.
Is this a Croft/Wyle attempt to eliminate the income tax debt? The next day a response was put on file:
Letter sent by Registry on 16-JUN-005 to Respondent acknowledging receipt of letter dated 15-JUN-2005 and referring to the rules governing motions. Copy placed on file.
Richard Wyly appears to have, in one way or another, dealt with this debt, because on November 22, 2005 a Satisfaction of Certificate was placed onto the file.

I think I’ll obtain this entire file at some point in the future and report on its content in more detail. Suffice to say my ‘OPCA sense’ is tingling.

I attempted to learn more about Ms. Croft/Wyly and her activities. If she has a social media presence it evaded me, though I’m pretty certain I found one of her sons, an up and coming punk rocker!

I located a couple other publications by Ms. Croft/Wyly, including a preview of part of her next book (https://mayanmajix.com/the_authority_hoax.pdf) and, most curious of all, a true-to-life gosh darnit ghost story she contributed to a book entitled “Real Monsters, Gruesome Critters, and Beasts from the Darkside”, written by Brad Steiger (Visible Ink Press, Sept. 1 2010, ISBN 1578592208) which can be viewed here (http://www.think-downloads.com/download ... rkside.pdf).

Not exactly the best reviewed text, for example Fortean Times had this to say (http://www.forteantimes.com/reviews/boo ... _side.html):
… This volume would be better entitled “My First Big Book of Monsters”. It could be a children’s survey, except that it frequently veers from introductory material to crackpot theories, all presented as “unbelievable yet true”.
But nevertheless the text does provide a biography of Ms. Croft/Wyly!
Mary Croft

Mary grew up in Toronto, Ontario, and moved to Hermosa Beach, Califor- nia, where she ran on the beach and worked as a registered nurse. After a decade, she moved north to Petaluma, California, where her two boys, Colin and Casey, were born. Over the decades, Mary has remained fascinated by the power of the subconscious mind and all disciplines of energy and frequency healing. She then moved to Roswell, New Mexico, for the challenging experiences without which she would not have had the material to write—upon moving to Canmore, Alberta—her book: How I Clobbered Every Bureaucratic Cash-Confiscatory Agency Known to Man: A Spiritual Economics Book on $$$ and Remembering Who You Are. This book can be downloaded at www .SpiritualEconomicsNow.net/solutions/How_I_08.pdf, and her subsequent, related articles can be read on her blog: http://SpiritualEconomicsNow.net/.
Just can’t stop the self-promotion…

As for the story … well, it’s not particularly scary. Mary may want to stick to writing pseudolegal documents. Those can be very, very scary indeed.

For example, I now shiver in the dark, awaiting my $500,000.00 invoice, with treble damages.

(How's that work anyways?)

SMS Möwe
That’s you and your crew, Mr. Hilfskreuzer. You’re just like a vampire, you must feel quite good about while the blood is dripping down from your lips onto the page or the typing, uhm keyboard there... [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNMoUnUiDqg at 11:25]
notorial dissent
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Re: Mary Elizabeth Croft/Mary Wyly: Credit Card Crook Clobbe

Post by notorial dissent »

Interesting, looks like her cra cra goes back a long way and she was busy trying to “find” herself until she got to Canada and become a get out of debt guru-ess. I owe you(Canada) an apology, I had always thought she was a Canadian flake that got imported down here, as she has always been referred to as Canadian in anything I've seen, instead she a homegrown Californian flake where she undoubtedly started her descent in to the other world, sharpened her skills with the NM crowd of touchy feelies and must not have been good enough or interesting enough to make it with the Sedona crowd and moved north to better pickings.

At one point she was big ju ju with the old time sovrun/debt skipper crowd mentioned in the electronic equivalent of hushed tones of awe and reverence from what I’ve heard in passing, but she seems to have fallen out of favor with the younger generation of them as they hardly ever mention her or even know who she is.

I find it interesting, but not surprising, that she was hooked up with, or at least really familiar with Dempsey, he was definitely her kind of OPCA nut. I’d always wondered what had happened to him after his brief and resoundingly failing flurry in the law courts as according to some at the time he was the great hope of the debt elimination community faction in what was then the proto-OPCA community. His stuff made a brief appearance on the old board before it crashed and I don’t know if any of it survived as I cannot now find that thread although his name has popped up from time to time in other pretend legal actions.

Looking forward to more on Madame Mary.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.
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Re: Mary Elizabeth Croft/Mary Wyly: Credit Card Crook Clobbe

Post by LightinDarkness »

Thank you for covering this Mowe. I would argue Mary Croft is the foundational guru for the rise of the Canadian/UK sov'runs and redemption movements. Every time I read their boards or when they talk about how they got into this insanity, the major gurus (including Rob Mernard and I think Dean Clifford) mention reading her "How I Clobbered" ebook.

What I find so interesting from the information you provided is it appears as though Mary is living in an alternative reality. She charges up a credit card, is sued, loses the case, and has a judgement issued against her for what looks like almost 5x the original balance...and then she writes up a manual about how she somehow "clobbered" the court and credit card company with sov'run gibberish. Since when does a $15k judgement against you equal "clobbering" anyone? She was the one that got clobbered.

Of course that is not unusual, since sov'run/redemption scams are all myths they will always fail. But usually these gurus have their big losses only after they've been gurus for a while. I guess its just typical sov'run logic. Every loss is somehow a "win." And then they have thousands of idiots reading their stuff and copying the methods...people who can't even bother to do the basic research to show her stuff doesn't work.
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Re: Mary Elizabeth Croft/Mary Wyly: Credit Card Crook Clobbe

Post by Jeffrey »

Mary Croft is the foundational guru for the rise of the Canadian/UK sov'runs and redemption movements
So the foundation of the Freeman movement is an attempt at getting free money from credit card companies...

There's probably a bible verse or something about building a house on a bad foundation.
notorial dissent
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Re: Mary Elizabeth Croft/Mary Wyly: Credit Card Crook Clobbe

Post by notorial dissent »

I think it is simpler than that, it is based on simply how to cheat someone, get something for nothing, in other words, lie, since the method would appear to have universal application, seems like a FOTL founding concept to me.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.
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Re: Mary Elizabeth Croft/Mary Wyly: Credit Card Crook Clobbe

Post by arayder »

notorial dissent wrote:I think it is simpler than that, it is based on simply how to cheat someone, get something for nothing, in other words, lie, since the method would appear to have universal application, seems like a FOTL founding concept to me.

To be fair there is an element of the freeman "movement" made up of folks who live simple, off the grid lives, don't incur debt and pays its way.

But it is correct that there is a group of freemen who spend more time trying to get over on the system then with a hoe.
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Re: Mary Elizabeth Croft/Mary Wyly: Credit Card Crook Clobbe

Post by notorial dissent »

Granted, but then they don't seem to get involved in all the extra curricular activities of trying to get something for nothing from their fellow FOTL either, like Menard, the brothers Dumb and Dumber, Nanu Nanu and the other pretend NA, and the Parasite, to name jsut a few prime examples, so I am of two minds as to whether they actually fit the description as it has come to be used.
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Re: Mary Elizabeth Croft/Mary Wyly: Credit Card Crook Clobbe

Post by Hilfskreuzer Möwe »

LightinDarkness wrote:Thank you for covering this Mowe.

...

What I find so interesting from the information you provided is it appears as though Mary is living in an alternative reality. She charges up a credit card, is sued, loses the case, and has a judgement issued against her for what looks like almost 5x the original balance...and then she writes up a manual about how she somehow "clobbered" the court and credit card company with sov'run gibberish. Since when does a $15k judgement against you equal "clobbering" anyone? She was the one that got clobbered.

... people who can't even bother to do the basic research to show her stuff doesn't work.
Thanks LightinDarkness. I also find it difficult to understand the dichotomy of the public and legal truth of guru activities. Is it a kind of wish fulfillment exercise? A way to pretend there was a different outcome? I don't know.

This isn't the only way OPCA gurus and litigants can go. A very different schema was in play in Canada in the late 1990's-early 2000's with at least some of the Detaxer movement. I have located communication among that group which indicate there was a substantial body of individuals, dozens, perhaps a few hundred, who were very carefully analyzing their own and each other's in-court activities. No attempt was made to hide failures - quite the opposite - instead the Detaxers were systematically ordering and accumulating transcripts that were put into a shared collection, sharing their own and the Crown's documents, and court documents, published or not. There was a kind of scrutiny and analysis.

Now a decade downstream that group is pretty much inactive, and when one does pop up, like Gordon Watson (viewtopic.php?f=50&t=9477), they may be very honest in their assessment of the concepts they advanced in court.

I don't want to seem to portray the Detaxer movement as a whole as a bunch of well-adjusted investigators into law - some then and now hold blind belief in long debunked, illogical ideas. But there seems to be a different overall tone between the Detaxers and their successors. A substantial proportion of Detaxers were willing to test and abandon ideas. Why doesn't that same kind of scrutiny happen in the Freeman-on-the-Land movement?

As illustration, another OPPT courtesy notice appeared on my desk last week.

However, I think it is not fair to criticize persons who, for example, ended up following Menard or Croft or Clifford for not doing their 'due diligence' and investigating the backgrounds of these promoters. True, recent investigation has shown that these people have not been honest about their own in-court activity. But historically in Canada it has not been easy to do that kind of research. There are huge blind spots where investigation is costly, even impossible. Our problem (one of our problems) is that so little of the Courts' records are readily accessible. We now have four jurisdictions where it is now possible to easily search and investigate whether or not someone has been involved in litigation: British Columbia, Manitoba, the Federal Courts and Tax Court of Canada, and the Supreme Court of Canada. And look at what we have found as a consequence.

In other jurisdictions there is significant cost to even do a simple search - are there any court files in Alberta that involve someone named Mary Croft? If there are hits - are any the correct Mary Croft? That usually means obtaining and reviewing the physical file, or ordering expensive copies. None of these procedures are obvious or well known to the public.

Worse, what if a guru is directing an action, rather than the litigant, such as Robert Menard representing Robert Christy? How do you search for that? I can't even think of a way to do so. The only reason the Christy litigation came to light is because its materials ended up incorporated in the British Columbia Law Society's action against Menard. Otherwise I can't see how a legal professional could have located that file, let alone a lay person.

This is a problem. The fact Canadian court records are public - but not accessible - has no doubt camouflaged all manner of nefarious misconduct. This isn't just an issue with the OPCA phenomenon - it goes to any instance where a member of the public would benefit from knowing more about the guy on the other side of the table. Would I, as a member of the public, like to be able to readily search to find out whether the building contractor I'm considering for a house renovation has a bad history in court? Yep. Can I do it? Possibly, but it will cost me.

In any case, the sad truth is it is possible for a guru to lie about their history and success and it will not be easy to find court documentation to prove otherwise. Hopefully things will improve further in Canada. That will save a lot of pain for persons who are vulnerable to pitches of this type.

(And why isn't someone launching a Charter lawsuit on this subject?)

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Re: Mary Elizabeth Croft/Mary Wyly: Credit Card Crook Clobbe

Post by arayder »

notorial dissent wrote:Granted, but then they don't seem to get involved in all the extra curricular activities of trying to get something for nothing from their fellow FOTL either, like Menard, the brothers Dumb and Dumber, Nanu Nanu and the other pretend NA, and the Parasite, to name jsut a few prime examples, so I am of two minds as to whether they actually fit the description as it has come to be used.
I hear ya'. It's one thing to believe that the authority of government has grown too great and should be reduced or eliminated. One might even take that approach all the way to anarcho-libertarianism, a position Menard claims when he doesn't want to talk about his scams.

However when freemen start using their theories to rip off lenders, restaurants and even other freemen they have crossed a line no society can tolerate.

On the positive side on the various freeman forums to see one freeman chide another for ripping somebody off with a A4V, 96Fix or a similar scam.

Some freemen actually know right from wrong.
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Re: Mary Elizabeth Croft/Mary Wyly: Credit Card Crook Clobbe

Post by LightinDarkness »

Valid points Mowe, I think the courts in the US may be a tad bit more accessible but it still requires PACER, which requires paying by the page above a certain amount (and you are likely to reach that amount given the hundreds of pages sov'runs file). Of course, due diligence on the theories themselves would show - apart from court actions - that they are not real. There need be no court case to determine the strawman/ALL CAPS NAME theory is false, for example. But I guess I expect to much of sov'runs to do background research on that sort of thing.

I too am intrigued by the internet mythology/failure reality of this movement. No failure seems to be big enough for them not to spin it as a win, even when its a 100% failure rate. That sort of disassociation from reality is huge.
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Re: Mary Elizabeth Croft/Mary Wyly: Credit Card Crook Clobbe

Post by The_Nidhogg »

what is being said about the detaxer movement and its attitude is very interesting.

What I'm encountering over here is a split- on the one hand people who have swallowed all the woo and are very much diehard believers. On the other are otherwise rational people who are hamstrung by the ridiculously hard to interact with court records; who are willing to look at evidence and say, 'ok x was tried and failed so it doesn't work- next theory'. The whole movement to be honest is more a reflection of the failure of the courts to provide easily accessible records to the public and of the education system to teach young people even a basic knowledge of law. My mind boggles that we had wasted classes on citizenship but never once a class on basic law.

The gurus I'm having a hard time pinning down, I think I know who they are but i can't yet see where the profit is. Of course Scotland's generous benefit system may mean guruship is more of an ego thing.
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Re: Mary Elizabeth Croft/Mary Wyly: Credit Card Crook Clobbe

Post by Jeffrey »

Is it a kind of wish fulfillment exercise? A way to pretend there was a different outcome? I don't know.
I think there's clearly a degree of that going on. You pay your local Guru $100 or $200 bucks and you get to roleplay in a fantasy scenario where their silly legal theories work, use big words and feel self-empowered for the day. (The food at these seminars seems to be a large draw too).

You get Menard and Croft in the same room and they can bullshit each other about their victories and for the duration of the encounter the stories are real. The illusion lasts maybe a few days or weeks until the next court date or encounter with a cop, or until you come home to find all you have is cheap Canadian beer in the fridge.

Get Dean Clifford and his buddies in a rented out room with a blackboard and they can use big words and pretend to be legal and constitutional experts. Dean can pretend to be the hyper successful construction company CEO and his buddies get to pretend that if they just learn Dean's magic words they too can be successful like Dean. Until Monday comes around and Dean has to go back to being unemployed or finding what little construction work he can get as an ex-convict with terrible business reputation.
I think I know who they are but i can't yet see where the profit is
I think we've covered the profit mechanisms pretty extensively here on Quatloos. Menard had a not-substantial amount of income going his way thanks to book, DVD and seminar revenue. Dean Clifford perhaps significantly more successful, his seminars pulled in roughly 5 figures depending on estimates of attendance plus how much of a cut the organizers got, his website alone was pulling in enough to live on comfortably. Winston Shrout sells his DVDs on his "solutions in commerce" website at $200 a pop, given that a DVD-R costs 99 cents-ish, it's easy to see where the profit is. Not to mention he goes cross-country and over into Canada and UK for seminars at $200 a head. Bill Thornton similarly charges $200 a head for his seminars, I read the flyer for the location of one of his recent seminars, he holds them at all you can eat buffet restaurants. The restaurant only charges for the food, not for the room, so assuming $20 a head in food costs, Billy pockets $180 a head in clean cash profit. Even if only ten people show up, he's making nearly 2 grand for a days work.
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Re: Mary Elizabeth Croft/Mary Wyly: Credit Card Crook Clobbe

Post by The_Nidhogg »

ah apologies! I should have been clearer! I understand how menard, Clifford, etc make/made money- but i'm struggling to find the Caledonian analogue - the seminars over here seem to be more like social meet ups and with the exception of their annual do there doesn't seem to be charges (though there may be on the door). I also can't see any obvious products being hawked.

Thanks anyway for your reply. :)
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Re: Mary Elizabeth Croft/Mary Wyly: Credit Card Crook Clobbe

Post by Jeffrey »

They may not have monetized it yet and are simply true believers.
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Re: Mary Elizabeth Croft/Mary Wyly: Credit Card Crook Clobbe

Post by LightinDarkness »

The_Nidhogg wrote:what is being said about the detaxer movement and its attitude is very interesting.

What I'm encountering over here is a split- on the one hand people who have swallowed all the woo and are very much diehard believers. On the other are otherwise rational people who are hamstrung by the ridiculously hard to interact with court records; who are willing to look at evidence and say, 'ok x was tried and failed so it doesn't work- next theory'. The whole movement to be honest is more a reflection of the failure of the courts to provide easily accessible records to the public and of the education system to teach young people even a basic knowledge of law. My mind boggles that we had wasted classes on citizenship but never once a class on basic law.

The gurus I'm having a hard time pinning down, I think I know who they are but i can't yet see where the profit is. Of course Scotland's generous benefit system may mean guruship is more of an ego thing.
I would have to disagree with this assessment, I don't think there are any "rational" people who actually believe this stuff. The reason is fairly simple - to be a rational person one would do some background research before destroying their credit/getting a criminal record/etc. by pulling sovereign citizen tactics. Even without access to court records, one simply does not need that much information to understand that the core mythologies of the sovereign movement have no substance to them. For example, one of the core myths for sovereigns is the whole "government is a corporation" thing. It doesn't even take any background research to realize why this is wrong, to understand the difference between a government having corporations (because that is the legal structure appropriate to delivery of some services) and a government being a corporation. Or the idea that your birth certificate is a bond that is sold on the stock market (it doesn't even make any intuitive sense).

I would instead offer a three tier classification system that is like this:

(1) The Gurus (5%) - These are your leaders, the people who make the DVDs and the youtube videos. The Dean Cliffords and Rob Menards of this world. They are in it for the profit or - more likely - because they get a ego boost from having people believe they are legal experts with "secrets" on how to defeat "the man."

(2) True Believers (25%) - These are the die hard types you describe. They will always believe in the sovereign mythology because they want to so badly that no amount of reality is going to shake them of it. Many of these become true believers because they had a court experience with an outcome they didn't like.

(3) Fair Weather Sovereigns (70%) - This is the great unwashed masses of the sovereign movement. These are individuals that are predisposed to believe in conspiracy theories and sort of fall into the sovereign stuff as a "flavor of the month" type thing. They dabble, but not seriously. They may join sovereign groups or attend a seminar. But when the going gets tough, they flee. The best example I can think of is the thousands of people in the Republic of the United States group. After their leader (Fake) President Tim Turner got arrested, 90% of the membership fled for the hills and was never heard from again.
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Re: Mary Elizabeth Croft/Mary Wyly: Credit Card Crook Clobbe

Post by The_Nidhogg »

Yes those are all fair points and I like your classification model.

Using the word rational was a bit of a miss step on my part. Perhaps sane fitted what i meant better?

I think many of your fair weather types are what i would call stupid-but-sane and are seduced into the movement by impressive legal sounding jargon without considering any of the beliefs critically. So with corporations it might run something like: corporation:crown Corporation: Crown is the government: government is corporation. They never think if its actually possible the word games suck them in. An event like the arrest of Turner forces them to critically analyse whether it works if only on a basic level. These people will leave the movement if they can see failure but if canny gurus run a tight ship on their forums and the courts are inaccessible then failures may be largely invisible to them.

these people aren't insane just stupid and easily lead. I believe a lack of accessible court cases showing freeman failures leaves them more vulnerable than they otherwise might be.

in any case i think we're largely on the same page and yes your structure is more accurate than mine!
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Re: Mary Elizabeth Croft/Mary Wyly: Credit Card Crook Clobbe

Post by Arthur Rubin »

Jeffrey wrote:You get Menard and Croft in the same room and they can bullshit each other about their victories and for the duration of the encounter the stories are real. The illusion lasts maybe a few days or weeks until the next court date or encounter with a cop, or until you come home to find all you have is cheap Canadian beer in the fridge.
Cheap Canadian beer is much better than cheap American beer :!:
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Re: Mary Elizabeth Croft/Mary Wyly: Credit Card Crook Clobbe

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

Arthur Rubin wrote:
Jeffrey wrote:You get Menard and Croft in the same room and they can bullshit each other about their victories and for the duration of the encounter the stories are real. The illusion lasts maybe a few days or weeks until the next court date or encounter with a cop, or until you come home to find all you have is cheap Canadian beer in the fridge.
Cheap Canadian beer is much better than cheap American beer :!:
And one bottle or can of craft beer like Heady Topper or Pliny the Elder is better than a case of either. Better than that ye shall never find....
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Re: Mary Elizabeth Croft/Mary Wyly: Credit Card Crook Clobbe

Post by Burnaby49 »

I'd put my vote on Copper Dragon cask bitter;

http://www.copperdragon.uk.com/
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeI-J2PhdGs
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Re: Mary Elizabeth Croft/Mary Wyly: Credit Card Crook Clobbe

Post by LightinDarkness »

The_Nidhogg wrote: I think many of your fair weather types are what i would call stupid-but-sane and are seduced into the movement by impressive legal sounding jargon without considering any of the beliefs critically. So with corporations it might run something like: corporation:crown Corporation: Crown is the government: government is corporation. They never think if its actually possible the word games suck them in. An event like the arrest of Turner forces them to critically analyse whether it works if only on a basic level. These people will leave the movement if they can see failure but if canny gurus run a tight ship on their forums and the courts are inaccessible then failures may be largely invisible to them.
I would agree with you there. The majority of sovereigns - outside of the die hards and gurus - are otherwise sane. They are just predisposed to believe in this stuff due to some experience with government/desire to believe conspiracies/etc. The most visible example are when the Fair Weather Soverigns end up being slapped with contempt or are otherwise charged for their antics, and then immediately drop the antics, lawyer up, and tell the court they were ignorant it was a scam.