What's with the victim thing?

[arayder]

We have been reading a lot of editorials here in the States admonishing those of us who protest the alt.right/neo-nazis/KKK/white supremacists to do so in completely no-violent ways. These editorials point out that the neo-nazis have borrowed a page form Hitler's playbook by playing up any violence, no matter how minor, as the victimization of their movement, which they claim is non-violent and patriotic. Specifically, Americans are being asked not to use or mimic anti-fa's methods.

Those us who have studied the rise of Nazism in 1920' and 1930's Germany know that the Nazis loved to provoke violence, particularly from German communists, during Nazi rallies and then claim they were peaceful and patriotic Germans who had been victimized by the bad old commies.

Subsequent oppressions of Jews, minorities, Jehovah Witnesses. . .the list goes on. . .were justified by violent or destructive acts, often staged by the Nazis, against the German state.

I point this out because it seems the Canadian freeman movement has hooked up with the Canadian alt.right. We are all familiar with, and been amused by, the freeman propagandist's practice of making freemen into victims whose lives have been ruined over a mere parking ticket or municipal tax bill.

We are all familiar with the nazi apologist, holocaust denying efforts of the World Freeman Society.

But recently freeman/sovcit forums and Facebook pages have shared hyperbolic alt. right whines like this one making the rounds: https://www.jihadwatch.org/2017/08/cana ... bia-motion

One has to wonder if the freeman subculture has joined with the neo-nazi/alt.right in a culture of victimhood. After nearly two decades of failure is it possible that the freeman subculture has tacked right in an attempt to remain relevant? This wouldn't be the first time freemanary has tried to latch on to a movement. We all recall freemanary's attempt to steal the thunder of the Occupy Movement if for no other reason than to recount Bobby Menard being upstaged by a balloon at an Occupy gathering.

[Jeffrey]

I'd type up something but I can't risk being banned from Quatloos after being banned from thefogbow.

[Burnaby49]

I'd type up something but I can't risk being banned from Quatloos after being banned from thefogbow.

Well you wouldn't be banned but I might stomp on the discussion if it gets too speculative and starts trying to drag American issues into a Canadian context.

[Jeffrey]

Well, I don't think it's new. It was either Arayder or someone else that noticed that the Freeman groups were relying on Russia Today as main source of news a few years ago. It's a pretty straight path from that to fellow traveling with the vague anti-establishment platform of Trump. The Clintons were the boogieman of the Sovereign and milita movement of the 90s, obviously they're going to latch onto the the anti-Clinton side now. Add to that other stuff like the racist roots of the Freeman movement that clearly help and the vaguely libertarian tendencies are going to be turned off by the censorship and left wing fascism of antifa. As well as the term alt-right itself being so vague that it's applied equally to non-establishment republicans, neo-confederates, neo-nazis, classical liberals, conspiracy theorists, etc.

On the other hand you can't read too much into it. The sovcits are don't have any actual ideological consistency, see Dean Clifford praising the authoritarian Vladimir Putin while advocating anarchy in Canada or Angela Stark bashing Bernie Sanders for being a socialist while trying to get free housing and medical care from the government or Freeman minorities regularly quoting or borrowing material from Aryan groups.

[arayder]

I'm not trying to be political. I just point out the irony of freemen expressing sympathy for neo-nazis, the KKK and white supremacists while at the same time adopting one of the latter's propaganda methods.

Twentieth century Nazis, as well as today's neo-nazis, the KKK and white supremacists, went out of their way to paint themselves as victims. Even to the point of inciting their opposition to a violent response so as to make it appear they are the aggrieved party.

My point is that freemen have long taken a page from that book. When they encounter the authorities they do everything they can to play the victim.

We have all seen videos of freemen screaming that they are being hurt as they are being arrested and handcuffed. I recall the video of a sovcit woman in the U.S. screaming that she was being raped during her arrest. When a courthouse guard told Menard to remove his hat for an routine search Menard protested, saying he was being asked to disrobe. And who can forget the big to do he made out of his 2014 traffic stop?

Likewise the youtubes of Tom Crawford supporters falling backwards when brushed by cops would be funny were they not so pathetic. Do we recall the freemen who faked being run over by the cops cars at Dean Clifford's arrest?

It's no wonder freemen and neo-nazis are in the same bed.

[Hyrion]

One has to wonder if the freeman subculture has joined [snip] in a culture of victimhood.

From my perspective: the OPCA crowd has always claimed a position of victimhood.

"Deny your birth certificate - it enslaves you to the government" - if you're truly a slave then you're truly a victim. Since they can't honestly - in my humble opinion - claim to be slaves for a boatload of reasons including they have choice and slaves do not then they're claiming to be victims when they aren't.

Ergo: victimhood.

That doesn't mean they're not grouping up with other like-minded groups. Victimhood just isn't a new or unusual claim. The example with the birth cert is just one of many many examples that can be provided of them claiming victimhood when it doesn't exist.

Scene: OPCA pushes physically close to police officer, police officer puts out her hand flat to prevent any further close approach and OPCA claims police brutality. (just another example)

[Hyrion]

I recall the video of a sovcit woman in the U.S. screaming that she was being raped during her arrest.

Sorry

I overlapped that example - I would have selected a different second example had I read your second post before posting.

[arayder]

I recall the video of a sovcit woman in the U.S. screaming that she was being raped during her arrest.

Sorry

I overlapped that example - I would have selected a different second example had I read your second post before posting.

No problem.

Most disturbing is the taint of nazism that hangs over the freeman subculture. Aside from adopting some of the same propaganda methodology as the nazis, elements of the subculture like the World Freeman Society are very open about their nazi apologism and holocaust denial. Now we see them pretending there is nothing wrong with neo-nazis and their hate speech. Menard says it's just another political point of view that deserves a reasonable debate. My ex-GI uncle, rest his soul, who had his arm shot off in France in 1944 would argue otherwise.

It was one of the tricks of the 1930's Nazis to present a false, more likable face to the world while they schemed to carry out their evil plans. I think freemanism has borrowed that ruse by presenting itself as a movement about personal freedom, when in fact it is about theft, denying just law and avoiding personal responsibility for one's actions.

[Jeffrey]

Menard says it's just another political point of view that deserves a reasonable debate.

Menard was bound to get something right eventually.

[arayder]

It’s all well and good to protect the right of Nazis to speak freely. Those rights are universal.

But let’s not kid ourselves that Nazis support any part of the Bill of Rights or the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Neither are they interested in a reasoned debate about the protecting the rights of any non-Aryans.

It is folly to think otherwise.

One might chalk up to naivety the notion that one might talk the Nazis out of Nazism, but the fact is the minions at WFS have been carrying the water for Nazis for years.

Why else would these self-proclaimed freedom fighters, stand mum while 21st century Nazis threaten Jews worshiping in their synagogues, beat blacks in full public view and shout at the parents of disabled children telling them their kids need to be euthanized?

Then there's the thing with the Dodge Charger!

Do we attribute the Nazi blind spot of freemanary’s oppression sniffing blood hounds to stupidity or bad judgement?

Or maybe something worse?

[GlimDropper]

Not directly on point but I found it interesting and there are some parallels to the OP, Mark Pitcavage was interviewed recently on NPR's Fresh Air about the American militia movement's recent protest activities. [Link]

One point raised was that a core principle of American militias is a strong anti government attitude which the current presidential administration has tapped in to leaving the militia types looking for a brand new boogie man. Enter Antifa.

I respect the no politics rules of this forum so will pretty much leave that link for those interested. We are in a time of flux and politics does make for some unusual, unlovely and unwashed bedfellows.

[Burnaby49]

Not directly on point but I found it interesting and there are some parallels to the OP, Mark Pitcavage was interviewed recently on NPR's Fresh Air about the American militia movement's recent protest activities. [Link]

One point raised was that a core principle of American militias is a strong anti government attitude which the current presidential administration has tapped in to leaving the militia types looking for a brand new boogie man. Enter Antifa.

I respect the no politics rules of this forum so will pretty much leave that link for those interested. We are in a time of flux and politics does make for some unusual, unlovely and unwashed bedfellows.

And we are getting way too political for my taste. If this keeps up I'll be locking this discussion. Nebulous unsupported opinions trying to connection Canadian freemen to current events in American are out so this discussion might have less than 24 hours to go.

I'll be linking to a new Canadian academic study on the attributes of the freeman/sovereign movements in Canada in the next few days. It has all the Menard connections that Arayder could reasonably expect but has no mention of nazi connections at all. At least to the point I've read to so far.

[fortinbras]

My opinion on this was developed when I was parliamentarian for a convention of the American Jewish Committee back during the time of the Skokie march.

These Nazi boys - you'll find very few mature men in their ranks - are really hungry for ATTENTION. They're like small children who have learned dirty words; any attention, even negative, is gratifying to them. But if, instead of swastikas and jackboots, they were wearing those peaked Napoleonic hats and swaggering around in uniforms of the late French Emperor, we wouldn't be afraid of them - we'd simply spot them as nutty and ignore them or ridicule them.

At the height of Vietnam War opposition, someone came up with the question, "What if they held a war and nobody came?" Same here, let the Nazi boys tromp down empty streets, let them tire themselves carrying their banners and shouting their dirty slogans to vacant sidewalks, let them realize that their swastika shirts and neatly pressed uniforms are no more intimidating than Halloween pirate costumes.

[arayder]

And we are getting way too political for my taste. If this keeps up I'll be locking this discussion. Nebulous unsupported opinions trying to connection Canadian freemen to current events in American are out so this discussion might have less than 24 hours to go.

I'll be linking to a new Canadian academic study on the attributes of the freeman/sovereign movements in Canada in the next few days. It has all the Menard connections that Arayder could reasonably expect but has no mention of nazi connections at all. At least to the point I've read to so far.

Thanks for the link in advance, Burnaby.

In Canada some of the organizations leading the alt. right charge are Concerned Canadians for Canadian Values, The Proud Boys and Jihad Watch. Each organization has it's own brand of Islamophobia and racism. Most deny having any connection to the alt.right (I suspect because the label is toxic).

I suspect each organization has a smattering of freemen, former freemen neo-nazis and nazi sympathizers.

The "connection" between nazism, neo-nazism and the WFS consists mainly of the well documented and aggressive nazi apologism and holocaust denial by WFS administrators and WFS forum posters.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/fo ... p?t=267530
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/fo ... count=2129
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/fo ... count=2246

The newest propaganda push, lead mainly by Rob Menard, is about assigning a sort of moral equivalency to neo-nazism, inferring it is just like any other political philosophy. Part of this propaganda push includes casting neo-nazis as the victims of government oppression and censorship as well as the supposed violent opposition of anti-nazi protesters.

The OP is about this brotherhood of victimhood between freemen and Nazis, not politics.