Do banks loan money

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Gregg
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Re: Do banks loan money

Post by Gregg »

Micheal Corleone wrote: Just when I thought I was out... they pull me back in
Just a few quick comments, at random, because I'm making lasagna...

A Note, promissory note, mortgage note, etc....

The borrower "creates" the note in the sense that they sign and agree to the terms of it, and the bank (or whatever) agrees to accept it based upon the conditions that the borrower has said he would abide by.
The bank (or whatever) then puts money somewhere, usually as a check to someone the borrower is paying money to, like a car dealer, home builder, drug dealer (or whatever). In theory, the lender could open the drawer and hand out hundreds for the amount, although almost always that's one of the conditions in the note, for instance, legal language that in effect means "we're not gonna pay this to you personally in silver coins, we're gonna send a check to the car dealer" , but hey, if you can get a bank (or whatever) to agree to give you cash money, have at it. They're still gonna want a car title, warranty deed or something in exchange that helps them secure the collateral.
Now, since on any given day they might in fact lend out more money than they have real live capital in the bank, they need something to back up that check they sent to the car dealer, because they don't (contrary to sovidget mythology just magic money into existence, if they don't do something that check will bounce just like yours or mine if we don't have the money in the account), so they take that note and hopefully its written in such a way that its a "negotiable instrument", meaning that first, it meets the requirements of both federal an state regulations for how the thing is written, and second, the terms, including the characteristics of the borrower meet certain conditions. Anyhow, if its up to snuff as a negotiable instrument, it can be easily sold in what's called the secondary market. That is a group of money things (mutual funds, other banks, insurance companies and rich guys, oh, and Hedge Funds....can't forget the hedge funds) that BUY these negotiable instruments, usually as pools of more than one, but often just individually. Some buyers buy them one at a time and then package groups of them as CBO Bonds and such which also sell on the secondary market but if you think about it that should be called the thirdendary market :shock: .

So, the bank (or whatever) sells the note that the borrower created and gets their cash back, and the buyer gets to collect the payments the borrower has to make. The "Note" might be sold more than once, and, especially in Mortgages and municipal bonds, they actually split the cash flow where one end buyer might have the right to only the interest portion of the payments received and someone else gets the repayment of principal (and if the borrower wins the lottery and pays off the mortgage early they get a lump sum and are done)

Ah, but young padawan, there was indeed some money created here. Money created on more than one level, and somewhere in all those notes and checks and CBOs and Hedge Funds the actual money supply, the amount of money the Federal Reserve has issued notes and credits and electrons for, has increased.

The Borrower has, by creating the note, agreed to create the amount of money that is new wealth generated by the transaction, over the course of the agreement. And this is important, the money is only created WHEN THE MONEY BORROWED AND THE INTEREST is repaid to the entity that holds the rights of the notes obligation. That bit means that you, Sovidgit, cannot declare that you created the money and therefore, by some logical dance don't have to pay it back, are wrong.

When you buy a house, say, and to simplify it this is a new house (existing homes do the same thing but the mechanics are more complicated for reasons not relevant to this discussion) and you pay, say $200K for it, a lot of money was created, by a lot of people and or companies etc... Unless you have a few years, just trust me on this concept but the end result is that money was created by all those people paying off their own mortgages or car loans or investing their savings...whatever they do with the coin they earn. You didn't create that money, they did and for all intents and purposes that money came into existence when that check the bank (or whatever) wrote based upon your note was cashed. But like I said, that is not the money you created, its the money they created, it just gets born when they get paid for creating it. And not all they they are paid is the new money, in fact, most of it is just a relocation of the existing money supply, but the things they did that made the economy larger than it was is in fact new money. Now since the money they are being paid isn't located anywhere yet, someone, somewhere, needs to fire up the printing press and make some Benjamins cause eventually all those electrons and account credits and debits and checks and such are gonna be reduced to someone wanting to buy a pack or Lucky Strikes at a place that doesn't take credit cards or checks.

Enter the all encompassing evil empire local Federal Reserve Bank. Not to be confused with the Federal Reserve Board, which is a government entity (search my posts for a good description of the difference, I've explained it before and like I said, I'm in a bit of a rush here)

I have to break this up here, continued in next post....
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Re: Do banks loan money

Post by LPC »

Gregg wrote: (1) If you took all the economists and laid them end-to-end around the earth it would be a good thing.
No, "If you took all the economists and laid them end-to-end, they still wouldn't reach a conclusion."

And I've read that Harry Truman wanted his staff to find him an economist with only one arm. They asked him why, and he said that all of the other economists were saying that, "Yes, that's true on the one hand, but on the other hand...."
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Gregg
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Re: Do banks loan money

Post by Gregg »

And we're back, dinner is done and now I'm eating while I type, and negotiating with a veteran of the 298th Airborne Wiener Dog Assault Squadron about how much she is gonna get, but I digress.

Remember back in the beginning when the bank (or whatever) wrote a check to the home builder and in fact didn't have that money setting in a drawer to cover the check? As I said, that check is gonna bounce unless someone puts money in an account to cover it. Well, as I explained, that note is going to usually sold on the secondary market, and thus the bank (or whatever) will get the money (that was created when the builder and his cast of dozens paid their mortgages but isn't actually anyplace just yet) to cover the check. Of course, the secondary market isn't Ebay so they don't get that money same day. So what do they do? There's not any (or whatever) here, this has to be a bank or, since the 80's, savings and loan for this but there are other methods that serve the same function for other lenders, clears the checks they write through the local Federal Reserve Bank. If the bank needs short term cash to bridge the time from when the check needs to clear and when they get proceeds from selling the note, the Fed will cover it, through several functions but usually and for the sake of simplicity here lets say they front the money from the Discount Window. To borrow from the Fed a bank must have "good collateral" and the Fed defines what that is. Interestingly, what is good collateral is a judgement call and what is good today may not be good tomorrow, and even what is good for Citibank is not always good for Chase. (the other major mechanism for getting money short term is the Money Market, a private system that works a lot like the Discount Window as far as function, although it is limited to relocating existing money, whereas the Discount Window can create new money.)

So, anyway, when a bank borrows from the Fed, (actually its more accurate to say that when the funds associated with a note that creates new money reaches the Fed because those funds always, eventually reach the Fed either through lending or Open Market Operations, but again, let's keep this simple) the Fed covers the check, notes that XYZ Bank owes them the money and to the extent that new money has been created they then make this money into existence on the books of all the institutions involved.

Okay, me and Chili Dog are gonna finish dinner, I may come back, but until then Patriotwhatever, there is your answer. Yes, banks loan money, its just that the actual acts of what happens when they do confuses a lot of idiots who try to apply Sovidgit logic to it in order to reach a predetermined, if misguided, sound bite answer.
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Gregg
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Re: Do banks loan money

Post by Gregg »

Patriotdiscussions wrote:
Perhaps my six years of economics would of been better spent with experts like you.

It looks to me like you could have better spent six years studying comic books

We have a debt currency system, anyone that knows anything about it and about exponential growth knows it can not last forever. But I do think it is cute that you think you can use iou's to "pay" for something. Trading debt for products does not "pay" for it, it pushes the debt from one person to the next. It is called discharging debt, not paying debt.
discharging debt is done by...wait for it....paying that debt :thinking:
It can last as long as the growth of the money supply is in fact tied to the actual creation of new wealth. That, in a very, very simplified term, is what the Federal Reserve does, it creates new money while trying to match that increase in the money supply to the actual new wealth that was at the same time created by economic activity. The reason this has ebbs and flows and thus cannot be done by robots is that the actions of the Fed today affect the market over the next days/weeks/months and they are acting based upon information that is as much as 6 months old when they act upon it.

Trust me on this, because truly, I know what you do not, get down on your knees and thank whatever deity you believe in that the Federal Reserve is mostly private and the part that is Government is about as isolated from our political institutions as any "Federal" anything. It is hard enough for honest and wicked smart bankers to run it without destroying reality, you cannot even imagine how phucked up it would quickly become if Congress had anything to do with it. It would be a lot worse than taking the teacher out of a classroom of 13 year old boys and tossing a bag of automatic weapons in, and then locking the door.
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Gregg
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Re: Do banks loan money

Post by Gregg »

I just gotta say something else, because your ignorance annoys me.

Debt is in fact as much money as coins and Federal Reserve Notes (or Silver Certificates for that matter).

Among the things I own, money wise, is a collection of Ford Motor Company bonds. That is, debt....Ford borrowed a few billion dollars one day (in 2012 in this case) and they borrowed part of it from, well, me.
I very much consider that part of "my money" and the interest payments I get every quarter I damn sure consider my paycheck. If I hold to maturity, they cut me a check for the money I loaned them (actually, a bit more as I bought them at a discount), but that will just be the money I had to begin with....

The point being, its debt to Ford, but to me its an income producing asset. (and in reference to my earlier post, the interest part of it is new money that was created when the people who bought cars with the money they borrowed from Ford Credit that Ford borrowed from me made their car payments)
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Re: Do banks loan money

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

I recall a joke which Che Guevara supposedly told just before his execution in 1967. He said that Fidel Castro said that he needed an "economista" to head Cuba's Ministry of Finance. Che claimed that he thought that Fidel was looking for a "comunista", and volunteered for the job.
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Re: Do banks loan money

Post by JennyD »

Why does this guy sound like someone that someday I'm going to be asked to pay a visit to his person...

nunc pro dorkus, pizza pizza......
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Re: Do banks loan money

Post by fortinbras »

I think we have all descended to that shameful depth where we are simply making fun of someone with Special Needs.

I think maybe this thread should come to an end.

PS: a matter of English usage: the verb is LEND and the noun is LOAN, banks LEND money, the money is LENT, the money is a LOAN.