LOCKED -- What is the jurisdiction of the United States?

[arayder]

Does the federal government have sovereignty over Kentucky?

Why does it need to ask it to cede land then?

What law has congress ever passed for Kentucky?

Well, I think you have answered your own questions by admitting that Congress has the limited authority to make and enforce law in areas outside the District of Columbia.

[arayder]

I see you like to blow hot air. I am not saying the only reason they are liable to federal statutes is this. Hell everyone is liable for the federal no murder statute.

What I am saying is a lot of federal law is only enforceable because we are federal territory residents.

They miss it like the racist misses it, or political blowhards on both sides miss it, or to be simple about it. People miss it because of their beliefs.

Now be nice, PD.

First you tell us that federal jurisdiction only applies if one volunteers to accept it. Then you say it applies if you fill out some federal forms.

Now you admit to the concurrent authority of state and federal governments to prosecute murders!

[Patriotdiscussions]

I see you like to blow hot air. I am not saying the only reason they are liable to federal statutes is this. Hell everyone is liable for the federal no murder statute.

What I am saying is a lot of federal law is only enforceable because we are federal territory residents.

They miss it like the racist misses it, or political blowhards on both sides miss it, or to be simple about it. People miss it because of their beliefs.

Now be nice, PD.

First you tell us that federal jurisdiction only applies if one volunteers to accept it. Then you say it applies if you fill out some federal forms.

Now you admit to the concurrent authority of state and federal governments to prosecute murders!

If you commit a murder at macdill the Feds got jurisdiction, if you do it across the street from macdill the state prosecutes you.

Can you tell me why?

[arayder]

I see you like to blow hot air. I am not saying the only reason they are liable to federal statutes is this. Hell everyone is liable for the federal no murder statute.

What I am saying is a lot of federal law is only enforceable because we are federal territory residents.

They miss it like the racist misses it, or political blowhards on both sides miss it, or to be simple about it. People miss it because of their beliefs.

Now be nice, PD.

First you tell us that federal jurisdiction only applies if one volunteers to accept it. Then you say it applies if you fill out some federal forms.

Now you admit to the concurrent authority of state and federal governments to prosecute murders!

If you commit a murder at macdill the Feds got jurisdiction, if you do it across the street from macdill the state prosecutes you.

Can you tell me why?

Your premise is false.

The states have broad authority to prosecute many types of crimes, including murder. But they may investigate and prosecute only criminal acts committed within their boundaries. The power of the federal government extends throughout the United States. Often the federal government is more able to investigate and prosecute sophisticated and large-scale criminal activity.

Thus it is the case that a murder committed off MacDill Air Force base involving, say large scale drug trafficking, may well be prosecuted in federal court.

Facts are stubborn things, PD.

[notorial dissent]

Sovrunidjitjibber's problem is that he doesn't know how to actually do research if he's not doing copypasta off some other idiot website, and he quite obviously has no BS discriminator installed.

[AndyK]

Some federal powers are given when you claim to be a us citizen.

So you are telling us that federal anti-counterfeiting statues are enforceable only because the counterfeiters claimed to be "U.S. citizens"?

Nope, I'm saying obamacare is only enforceable against people who claim to be us citizens.

PD, please use the correct terms. It is either "The Affordable Care Act" or "Romneycare" (named after its inventor, the then-governor of Massachusetts - Mitt Romney. Obama merely copied Romney's plan)

And what you're saying is WRONG. The Affordable Care Act also applies to resident aliens.

[Patriotdiscussions]

PD, please use the correct terms. It is either "The Affordable Care Act" or "Romneycare" (named after its inventor, the then-governor of Massachusetts - Mitt Romney. Obama merely copied Romney's plan)

And what you're saying is WRONG. The Affordable Care Act also applies to resident aliens.

Does it apply to American nationals?

And the basis for it applying to anyone is the word of art definition of state, which really means federal territory.

Of course the definition of state in the aca is In Pari Materia with every other definition of state since 1864 both in federal and state law.


Florida
322.01

(38) “State” means a state or possession of the United States, and, for the purposes of this chapter, includes the District of Columbia.

[arayder]

Curious, ain't it?

To our new friend snippets of old dead law like the Slaughter House cases (the Court adopted more vigorous 14th Amendment protections in subsequent cases) are valid law.

So to our new friend the Court's recent embrace of the the Affordable Care Act really means the Act is "only enforceable against people who claim to be us citizens."

It seems that old dead case law rules in the mind of our new friend.

[arayder]

Sovrunidjitjibber's problem is that he doesn't know how to actually do research if he's not doing copypasta off some other idiot website, and he quite obviously has no BS discriminator installed.

Clearly our new friend does not know how to shepardize a case. . .that is checking the relevance of a past court decision as precedent in order to know whether the case law he is relying on is actually still valid and pertinent.

Consequently, we are treated to snippets of old dead case law he has cut and pasted from the pseudo-scholars at dubious sources like Sui Juris and SupremeLaw.org.

I suspect if we dug a little deeper we would also find minority opinions and non-binding dicta among his case cites.

[Duke2Earl]

The real problem is that what we have here is an answer in search of a rationale. And that type of "research," even if one knew how, which he clearly doesn't, almost always leads to erroneous results.

"There must be a magic way out if only I quote the right words, in the right order and file the right piece of paper. I can suspend reality. I know I can." Famous last words

[AndyK]

Does it apply to American nationals? Please define what you mean by "American nationals" Are you referring to the Washington DC Nationals baseball team or (as is more likely) are you trying to circumvent the term 'citizens'?

And the basis for it applying to anyone is the word of art definition of state, which really means federal territory. "State" has dozens of meanings. However the only one which matters for the sake of this discussion relates to one of the 48 contiguous geographic / governmental entities within continental United States plus Alaska and Hawaii.

Of course the definition of state in the aca is In Pari Materia with every other definition of state since 1864 both in federal and state law.


Florida
322.01

(38) “State” means a state or possession of the United States, and, for the purposes of this chapter, includes the District of Columbia. Again, for the umpteenth time, Florida law has absolutely no relevance to a discussion of the jurisdiction of the federal government.

Out of curiosity, where are you trying to go with this thread? You have reraised almose every long-since-discredited theoty concerning federal jurisdiction with no clear end in sight.

I'm surprised you haven't yet started to bring up some of the clear misinterpretations of "include / includes / including" within federal statutes.

[arayder]

Sometimes when these folks truly believe that repealed statutes and old dead case law are the true law they get it into their heads that subsequent lawful and proper progress of the law is really stealing the law from true believers such as themselves.

Add in a pinch of denial and a tea spoon of self righteous patriotism and you get an untrained biased researcher sifting around for what he wants to see. . .not what is.

I honestly can't attribute this sentiment to our new friend as yet.

[Dr. Caligari]

Patriotdiscussions:

On every thread you post from now on, I am going to repeat my question from another thread, until you answer my question:

You can beat the willful part by showing you relied on Supreme Court cases like Conner vs. us, etc.

Please show us this "Supreme Court decision" in Conner v. U.S., or be forever proven to be a liar.
Hint: there is no such "Supreme Court decision."

PD,
You are still ducking the question: where is the Supreme Court decision in Conner v. U.S.?

Are you a coward, a liar, or both?

[Famspear]

PD,
You are still ducking the question: where is the Supreme Court decision in Conner v. U.S.?

Are you a coward, a liar, or both?

Yes, PD, we want you cite the U.S. Supreme Court decision in the "Conner" case -- the one you claimed existed.

Here's the form for a U.S. Supreme Court decision for the citation to United States Reports, the official publication: ___ U.S. ____ (19___).

And, we want you to recite the holding or holdings in that mythical case.

Stop evading the issue. Either prove that what you wrote was true, or admit that what you wrote was false.

[Famspear]

PD, here is an excerpt from what you wrote on October 15th:

....You see bob, the IRS does not prosecute people who will win. That's why pondsford had a 30 year lien but they never took him to court.

You can beat the willful part by showing you relied on Supreme Court cases like Conner vs. us, etc.

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=10269

Come on, PD. Give us the citation to the Supreme Court case of “Conner vs. us”.

You're lying about "pondsford" and you're lying about "Conner."

[Gregg]

Hell everyone is liable for the federal no murder statute.

Umm, there is no federal law against murder in general, and up until after the Kennedy assassination, none at all. The only Federal Murder Statute is the murder of a US Government Official.
I'm not sure, but I believe that if a civilian murdered someone on a military base in Florida, it is possible he would be prosecuted by the state of Florida. Am I right on that?

[arayder]

There's a boat load of federal murder charges that can result in the death penalty:

http://deathpenalty.procon.org/view.res ... eID=004927

The idea that the feds need the authority to go after murders dates back to the Lindbergh kidnapping when the feds, the FBI and J. Edgar Hoover realized they had no strict justification for helping in the investigation of the child's kidnapping and murder. Hoover got the FBI in on the case anyway and years later kidnapping became a federal crime.

As you can see, since then the list of capital crimes the feds can prosecute you for and give you "the chair" has grown.

[LPC]

No Federal legislative jurisdiction without consent, cession, or reservation. -- It scarcely needs to be said that unless there has been a transfer of jurisdiction (1) pursuant to clause 17 by a Federal acquisition of land with State consent, or (2) by cession from the State to the Federal government, or unless the Federal Government has reserved jurisdiction upon the admission of the State, the Federal Government possess no legislative jurisdiction over any area within a State, such jurisdiction being for exercise entirely by the States, subject to non-interference by the State with Federal functions, and subject to the free exercise by the Federal Government of rights with respect to the use, protection, and disposition of its property.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

[Edited to add:]The quoted language is from the report cited by PD, and it is obvious from the context of the use of the phrase "legislative jurisdiction" that the report uses the phrases "legislative jurisdiction" and "exclusive legislation" interchangeably to refer to the kinds of general legislative power contemplated by clause 17. And that makes the above quotation misleading and out of context, because it suggests that Congress has no legislative power outside of the areas in which Congress has *exclusive* legislative power under clause 17, which is nonsense.[End of edit]

Clause 17 (of Article I, section 8 ) is the 17th clause granting legislative power to Congress, and it grants EXCLUSIVE power over certain kinds of areas that might be needed for federal purposes (such as the District of Columbia for the seat of the federal government, and forts etc.), but only if the states consent. The state has to consent because the EXCLUSIVE legislative power of Congress will prevent the state from exercising any legislative power over that land that is otherwise within the state.

The other 17 clauses (clauses 1 through 16, and clause 18) grant legislative powers to Congress that are NOT "exclusive" (the states can usually legislate on the same subjects, except where Congress has decided to "pre-empt" state law and the Supremacy Clause kicks in), and those powers can be exercised ANYWHERE in ANY STATE of the United States.

I don't want to call this grade-school civics, but it's definitely first year law school stuff. Basic federalism.

[Judge Roy Bean]

Hell everyone is liable for the federal no murder statute.

Umm, there is no federal law against murder in general, and up until after the Kennedy assassination, none at all. The only Federal Murder Statute is the murder of a US Government Official.
I'm not sure, but I believe that if a civilian murdered someone on a military base in Florida, it is possible he would be prosecuted by the state of Florida. Am I right on that?

Actually, it's more complex than that. Wes would probably be the resident factotum on the subject but as I understand it, there's considerable discretion among prosecutors. The Federal Government may even have an interest in bringing a second prosecution if the defendant is convicted and the State punishment is deemed insufficient - for example in a situation where jury nullification was a factor in a lesser conviction or when a state prosecutor failed to bring appropriate charges that would have led to a more aggressive sentence.

[bmxninja357]

@judge roy bean,

Would a second prosecution from state to federal qualify as double jeopardy?

Peace
Ninj