Definition of income

Famspear
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Re: Definition of income

Post by Famspear »

Under the Internal Revenue Code, "individual" means, generally a living human being. As far as I know, that definition is not found in the Code itself, mind you. (Remember the discussion about the word "income"?)

It matters not whether you're a citizen, etc., for purposes of this definition of "individual".

The courts have ruled several things about the definition of income. Maybe you need to ask a more specific question.

And 26 CFR section 1.1441-1 does not define "individual" as that term is used in the Internal Revenue Code. It defines only "alien individual" and "nonresident alien individual." Neither does that provision limit the term "individual" to "alien individuals" and "nonresident alien individuals."

8)
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Famspear
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Re: Definition of income

Post by Famspear »

Oh, and since you're citing a Treasury regulation that does not even apply to the relevant Code section (which is Code section 1, not section 1441), let me help you out:
Citizens or residents of the United States liable to tax. In general, all citizens of the United States, wherever resident, and all resident alien individuals are liable to the income taxes imposed by the Code whether the income is received from sources within or without the United States....
--from 26 C.F.R. section §1.1-1(b).

Also, even nonresident alien individuals are subject to the U.S. federal income tax. That means that someone who has never been an American and has never even been to America and is not even related to any American can be subject to the U.S. federal income tax.

I'm curious: How long have you been reading tax protester nonsense?

A year?

Five years?

Ten years?
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AndyK
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Re: Definition of income

Post by AndyK »

Assuming that I'm not violating the "Don't feed the troll" rule:

1 - It doesn't matter if the Income Tax is an excise, impost, direct or indirect tax. It was specifically authorized via an amendment to the Constitution. Every court that has ever considered that issue has come to the same conclusion: "It's constitutional. It doesn't matter." End of discussion on that point.

2 - Individual / person / creature / thing: Again, sophistry doesn't matter. If someone arrived in the United States via ship, plane, train, bus, auto, foot, or birth canal; they are a person for all aspects of the law. Some persons are citizens, some are resident aliens, and some are visitors. It doesn't matter. They are all (with a very few exceptions such as the staff of foreign embassies) subject to all of the federal, state, and local laws. [Similarly, persons visiting countries outside the United States are subject to the various local laws AND persons travelling from one United States state to / through another are subject to all the local laws. E.g. Try telling a Georgia State Trooper that you can drive at 70 MPH because that's the law in Texas.]

There are a few interesting twists to this such as artificial 'persons' as in business corporations, but that's not relevant to your issues.

Basically, if you're breathing, your body is reasonably above room temperature, and you are a member of what is generally known as homo sapiens; you are a person in the eyes of the law.

It doesn't matter if you agree with that or not. In the eyes of the law, you will be treated as a person, even if it means dragging you along -- kicking and screaming all the way. Many other people have based legal defenses and/or tax evasion on their own defiitions of personhood. They have all lost.

To wrap up for now; what you have posted / argued / questioned is not in the least bit new or unique. MANY others have come up with the same ideas before and have [sadly] learned that they are totally wrong.

Now, if you have any rational questions regarding Income Tax, Multi-Level Marketing, Nigerian scams, or any of the other topics discussed here, feel free to hang around and raise them.

BUT, if your plan is to rehash shopworn theories, don't waste the electrons.
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Re: Definition of income

Post by Arthur Rubin »

Patriotdiscussions wrote:26 C.F.R. §1.1441-1 Requirement for the deduction and withholding of tax on payments to foreign persons.

...

This is the ONLY IRS definition for individual, correct?
I haven't checked, but a definition in the regulations (26 CFR) does not override the normal definition of the word if not specified in the statutes (26 USC). "Individual" is not defined in 26 CFR 1.1441-1, only "alien individual" and "non-resident alien individual".
Arthur Rubin, unemployed tax preparer and aerospace engineer
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fortinbras
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Re: Definition of income

Post by fortinbras »

It is fairly obvious, e.g. from 26 USC §§ 1 & 2, that "an individual" means a human being. Individuals are identified or categorized as being married or unmarried, residents or nonresidents, etc., which rather obviously excludes any other entities such as lower animals or corporations. The Tax Code did not find it necessary to reproduce the 2+2 ritual that was featured in the movie, The Forbin Project.

As for income, it was fairly well defined well before the proposal of the 16th amendment. The Tax Code, in fact, trims the usual and long-accustomed meaning of income by creating various exemptions, exclusions and exceptions, so that, under the 16th Amendment income means a little less than it previously did.
Famspear
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Re: Definition of income

Post by Famspear »

Oh, and by the way, "Patriotdiscussions," you are indeed a tax protester under one of my definitions:

Tax protester: A person who makes statements indicating that he or she believes things about the U.S. federal income tax law that happen to be legally frivolous.
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LPC
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Re: Definition of income

Post by LPC »

Wow, I step away from the computer for a few hours, and suddenly a new thread has 25 responses.
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Re: Definition of income

Post by LPC »

Ok, I'm up to speed now.

New troll, but the usual crap. Not worth a response.
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Re: Definition of income

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

LPC wrote:Ok, I'm up to speed now.

New troll, but the usual crap. Not worth a response.
Agreed. All the answers he deserves are in our past threads.
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Famspear
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Re: Definition of income

Post by Famspear »

To answer what I believe was Arthur's question: The U.S. federal estate tax is not an income tax, so the Sixteenth Amendment isn't material to the estate tax.

The estate tax is a tax on the transfer of property at death -- a tax on the transfer of the "taxable estate" (a defined term!) of a decedent. Because the federal estate tax is not a tax on property itself (i.e., it's not a tax on property "by reason of its ownership"), it is an indirect tax -- an excise. So, it's not required to be apportioned among the states according to population.

EDIT: From something I wrote "in another place":
In the United States, the term "direct tax" has acquired specific meaning under constitutional law: a direct tax is a tax on property "by reason of its ownership" [footnote: See, e.g., the United States Supreme Court case of Fernandez v. Wiener, in which the Court stated that a direct tax is a tax "which falls upon the owner merely because he is owner, regardless of his use or disposition of the property." Fernandez v. Wiener, 326 U.S. 340, 66 S. Ct. 178, 45-2 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) ¶10,239 (1945).[end of footnote] (such as an ordinary real estate property tax imposed on the person owning the property as of January 1 of each year) as well as a capitation (a "tax per head").

[ . . .]

The United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit has stated: "Only three taxes are definitely known to be direct: (1) a capitation [ . . . ], (2) a tax upon real property, and (3) a tax upon personal property." Opinion on rehearing, July 3, 2007, p. 20, Murphy v. Internal Revenue Service and United States, case no. 05-5139, United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, 2007-2 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) paragr. 50,531 (D.C. Cir. 2007) (dicta).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_tax
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Famspear
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Re: Definition of income

Post by Famspear »

PS: Dear Patriotdiscussions:

Perhaps if you had spent more time learning the law, you would have known better than to cite the Merchants' Loan case.

This web site is populated by attorneys, CPAs and others who have been studying tax protester arguments for many years. We've seen it all. Tax protesters have cited that case over and over and over and over and over and over again -- and they're always wrong.

Since you don't say why you're citing the case, let me go into a little background on what 99% of all tax protesters who cite this case are doing.

Usually, tax protesters cite the case for the hilarious argument that "income" means only "corporate profit" or "corporate gain."

They can't figure out what the term "income" means in the Merchants' Loan case, and they can't figure out what the word "income" meant in the Corporation Excise Tax Act of 1909. Further, they can't figure out the holding -- the actual ruling by the Supreme Court -- in the Merchants' Loan case.

Hint: In the 1909 Act, the term income did not mean "corporate profit" or "corporate gain".

Again, from something I wrote in "another place":
The Court in Merchants' Loan was specifically interpreting a 1916 statute imposing income taxes on individuals and estates (among other kinds of entities), and not the 1909 corporate tax statute. The taxpayer in Merchants' Loan was not a corporation but was the "Estate of Arthur Ryerson, Deceased". The Court was not presented with (and did not decide) any issue involving the taxability of "corporate profits" or "corporate gains" or any other kind of income except the gain on the sale of the stock by the "Estate of Arthur Ryerson, Deceased". The terms "corporate profit" and "corporate gain" are not found in the text of the Court’s decision in Merchants’ Loan. In Merchants' Loan, the Supreme Court ruled that under the Sixteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution and the 1916 tax statute applicable at the time, a gain on a sale of stock by the estate of a deceased person is included in the income of that estate, and is therefore taxable to that estate for federal income tax purposes.

The Merchants' Loan argument has been litigated by tax protesters several times, and the courts have uniformly rejected the argument that income consists only of corporate profits. See, for example:

1. Cameron v. Internal Revenue Serv., 593 F. Supp. 1540, 84-2 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) paragr. 9845 (N.D. Ind. 1984), aff’d, 773 F.2d 126, 85-2 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) paragr. 9661 (7th Cir. 1985).

2. Stoewer v. Commissioner, 84 T.C.M. (CCH) 13, T.C. Memo 2002-167, CCH Dec. 54,805(M) (2002).

3. Reinhart v. United States, 2003-2 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) paragr. 50,658 (W.D. Tex. 2003).

4. Fink v. Commissioner, 85 T.C.M. (CCH) 976, T.C. Memo 2003-61, CCH Dec. 55,068(M) (2003).

5. Flathers v. Commissioner, 85 T.C.M. (CCH) 969, T.C. Memo 2003-60, CCH Dec. 55,067(M) (2003).

6. Schroeder v. Commissioner, 84 T.C.M. (CCH) 220, T.C. Memo 2002-211, CCH Dec. 54,851(M) (2002), aff’d, 2003-1 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) paragr. 50,511 (9th Cir. 2003), cert. denied, 540 U.S. 1220 (2004).

7. Sherwood v. Commissioner, T.C. Memo 2005-268, CCH Dec. 56,200(M) (2005).

8. Ho v. Commissioner, T.C. Memo 2006-41, CCH Dec. 56,447(M) (2006).

Tax protesters -- who have lost every case using Merchants' Loan for the theory that only "corporate profits" could be taxable -- are citing a case where the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the income of a non-corporate taxpayer is taxable. Neither the United States Supreme Court nor any other federal court has ever ruled that under the Internal Revenue Code the term "income" means only the income of a corporation for federal income tax purposes.
(some formatting changed for readability; emphasis added).
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Re: Definition of income

Post by JamesVincent »

Hmmmm... corporate profit or gain.... employees are paid out of profit or gain.... hmmmm.... taxes on salary paid out of profit or gain.....hmmmm.

Something I learned not to long after joining Quatloos. As much as TP/TDs try to twist the words around, if you actually follow their convoluted thoughts... they actually prove themselves wrong. And have no clue how they got there. But, then again, I'm weird. :thinking:
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Re: Definition of income

Post by LPC »

JamesVincent wrote:Something I learned not to long after joining Quatloos. As much as TP/TDs try to twist the words around, if you actually follow their convoluted thoughts... they actually prove themselves wrong. And have no clue how they got there. But, then again, I'm weird.
I agree with everything except the last part.
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grixit
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Re: Definition of income

Post by grixit »

Patriotdiscussions wrote:
People get confused because they do not know the legal definitions of common words, nor have they studied statutory construction.
People like you get confused and start to think that if you flap your arms really hard you can fly in the face of common sense. You can't.

In all the years that people have been trying these sorts of word games, the best outcome that has ever been achieved is to avoid conviction on the grounds that they were morbidly ignorant; and even then, they still had to pay the taxes.

Occasionally you'll hear someone claiming that that they were victorious, but each time it turns out to be something else: the IRS was wrong (newsflash it's been known to be, that's why there are real lawyers that take tax cases), the person managed to get past the statute of limitations, or the amount in question was too small to bother with.

So far, everything you've said, is stuff we've heard before, from self declared learned folk who later disappear, get convicted, or make a plea bargain. Do you have anything new? Anything to surprise us, maybe make us doubt what generations of judges and legislators, from the founders on, have said? Or should we just stamp your forehead QUATLOOSER CLONE #4735 and release you back into the wild?

Also, definition of "income": they paid you. You're welcome.
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grixit
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Re: Definition of income

Post by grixit »

Patriotdiscussions wrote:26 C.F.R. §1.1441-1 Requirement for the deduction and withholding of tax on payments to foreign persons.

(c ) Definitions

(3) Individual.

(i) Alien individual.

The term alien individual means an individual who is not a citizen or a national of the United States. See Sec. 1.1-1(c).

(ii) Nonresident alien individual.

The term nonresident alien individual means a person described in section 7701(b)(1)(B), an alien individual who is a resident of a foreign country under the residence article of an income tax treaty and Sec. 301.7701(b)-7(a)(1) of this chapter, or an alien individual who is a resident of Puerto Rico, Guam, the Commonwealth of Northern Mariana Islands, the U.S. Virgin Islands, or American Samoa as determined under Sec. 301.7701(b)-1(d) of this chapter. An alien individual who has made an election under section 6013 (g) or (h) to be treated as a resident of the United States is nevertheless treated as a nonresident alien individual for purposes of withholding under chapter 3 of the Code and the regulations thereunder.










This is the ONLY IRS definition for individual, correct?
Those are the IRS definitions of the terms "alien individual" and "nonresident alien individual". The IRS assumes that most people already know what "individual" means by itself and that the rest, such as you, can get remedial education.
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grixit
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Re: Definition of income

Post by grixit »

Also, the medieval christian definition of "person" is "that which has a mind and a will". That seems pretty good to me; it's broad enough to include any leftover neanderthals that might be lurking in some hidden valley, as well as autonomous robots and extraterrestrials. Doesn't fit corporate entities, but that's an addon, well within the authority of the legislature.
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Re: Definition of income

Post by The Observer »

grixit wrote:Or should we just stamp your forehead QUATLOOSER CLONE #4735 and release you back into the wild?
We have gotten that high on the clone count? Seems just like yesterday when we slapped #666 on Harvester.
grixit wrote:...t's broad enough to include any leftover neanderthals that might be lurking in some hidden valley...


Is this Frickintardistan that you are describing?
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Re: Definition of income

Post by Patriotdiscussions »

My you boys were right, you are just to smart for me, I better go hide now.....lol
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Re: Definition of income

Post by Patriotdiscussions »

Famspear wrote:Oh, and since you're citing a Treasury regulation that does not even apply to the relevant Code section (which is Code section 1, not section 1441), let me help you out:
Citizens or residents of the United States liable to tax. In general, all citizens of the United States, wherever resident, and all resident alien individuals are liable to the income taxes imposed by the Code whether the income is received from sources within or without the United States....
--from 26 C.F.R. section §1.1-1(b).

Also, even nonresident alien individuals are subject to the U.S. federal income tax. That means that someone who has never been an American and has never even been to America and is not even related to any American can be subject to the U.S. federal income tax.

I'm curious: How long have you been reading tax protester nonsense?

A year?

Five years?

Ten years?

In reality the directions for the 1040 clearly state non residents are not liable for taxes unless they meet two requirements, one of which is them electing to be taxed.....lol


Are you trying to state that non resident aliens are not in the country? That's odd that Florida has statutes about them then.
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Re: Definition of income

Post by Patriotdiscussions »

grixit wrote:Also, the medieval christian definition of "person" is "that which has a mind and a will". That seems pretty good to me; it's broad enough to include any leftover neanderthals that might be lurking in some hidden valley, as well as autonomous robots and extraterrestrials. Doesn't fit corporate entities, but that's an addon, well within the authority of the legislature.
early 13c., from Old French persone "human being, anyone, person" (12c., Modern French personne) and directly from Latin persona "human being, person, personage; a part in a drama, assumed character," originally "mask, false face," such as those of wood or clay worn by the actors in later Roman theater. OED offers the general 19c. explanation of persona as "related to" Latin personare "to sound through" (i.e. the mask as something spoken through and perhaps amplifying the voice), "but the long o makes a difficulty ...." Klein and Barnharut say it is possibly borrowed from Etruscan phersu "mask." Klein goes on to say this is ultimately of Greek origin and compares Persephone.

Of corporate entities from mid-15c.