Split from "Harvester of Chaff"

[Paul]

If someone of his stature says the federal sky is falling, should we plug our ears?

Interesting choice of words. The answer is, obviously, "No." The "sky" is an illusion, and cannot fall.

And the claims you posted regarding the Fed are in "the sky is falling" category of unreality. You do realize, for example, that state banks were not originally members of the Fed system? Quite a big hole in any monopoly-creating conspiracy.

[The Operative]

Your man Flaherty (academic hack) is debunked here:
http://www.freedom-force.org/freedomcon ... age=issues

That is not a debunking. It is a continued attempt to justify Griffin's erroneous conclusions. Griffin does not utilize Flaherty's own words or he takes several incomplete snippets and attempts to counter Flaherty's arguments.

For those lurkers who may read this, if you wanted to know how a nuclear reactor worked, who would you ask? A nuclear engineer or a person with a Bachelor's degree in Communications? The nuclear engineer would be the logical choice. Now, who would you ask about the Federal Reserve? A Ph.D. in Economics or a person with a Bachelor's degree in Communications? Guess which person has a Ph.D. in Economics and which has a Bachelor's degree in Communications.

Interesting assessment Operative. However I take issue with the Dallas Fed conclusion: "So the most accurate answer may be that the Fed is “owned” by the citizens of the United States" (emphasis added). Oh really? Like plantation slaves may be considered "owners" of their labor because the plantation owner takes care of them & throws a party at harvest-time? I'm sorry but "may be" isn't good enough. Thanks for trying.

Nonsense. Your attempt at a comparison is not even close. If the plantation owner sells his property or decides to shut down his plantation, do the slaves get the assets and liabilities of the plantation? No, they were sold just like all other property and were at the mercy of the plantation owner. If the Federal Reserve District Banks are dissolved, all assets and liabilities become the responsibility and property of the U.S. Government. So, yes, it is correct to say that the Federal Reserve District Banks are owned by the citizens of the United States through the U.S. Government.

For anyone else reading this thread, all of my statements from previous posts about the privileges of holding stock in the Federal Reserve District Banks is in accordance with law, specifically, 12 USC Chapter 3.

To quote Griffin:

This leads to the troublesome question of ownership. The federal government does not own any stock in the System. In that sense, the Fed is privately owned. That, however, is misleading in that it implies a typical private-ownership relationship in which the stockholders own and control. Nothing could be further from the truth. In this case, the stock carries no proprietary interest, cannot be sold or pledged as collateral, and does not carry ordinary voting rights. Each bank is entitled to but one vote regardless of the amount of stock it holds. In reality, the stock is not evidence of “ownership” but simply certificates showing how much operating capital each bank has put into the System. It is not a government agency and it is not a private corporation in the normal sense of the word. It is subject to political control yet, because of its tremendous power over politicians and the elective process; it has managed to remain independent of political oversight. Simply stated, it is a cartel, and its organization structure is uniquely structured to serve that end.

Griffin actually comes very close, but then gets lost in his agenda to paint the Federal Reserve in a bad light. He starts by stating the same facts that I did about holding stock but then makes a statement of opinion which is not supported by anything tangible. The Federal Reserve is independent, but it is not without political oversight. Congress created it, and Congress can change practically any part of it at anytime enough of them can agree to do it.

So what if the federal government doesn't own any stock in the system? The simple fact is that the assets and liabilities of the Federal Reserve District Banks become the responsibility of the U.S. Government if the Federal Reserve District Banks were to be dissolved. Since the stock doesn't confer any normal rights of ownership, who cares if the federal government doesn't hold any of it?

Now, consider this, which period has experienced fewer recessions and depressions: 1814 to 1910 or 1914 to 2010? Which period spent less total time in recessions? Once you know the answer to that and how much total time the economy spent in recessionary periods during each time frame, you will understand that the Federal Reserve has been largely beneficial. Those that want to end the Federal Reserve, do not know history.

[Harvester]

If I wanted to know how a nuclear reactor, or the Federal Reserve, worked, I would NOT rely on the illuminati-controlled Ph.D. of either discipline. Do you have any idea how vast & deep the deception runs?

Got to hand it to you; you're good at your game. Unfortunately the outlook for DISINFORMATION going forward is very bearish. The game's almost over. In fact, I'm calling it. The US corporation is bankrupt. WeThePeople have won! Announcements are imminent. All will be revealed.
Thanks for playing!

[Joey Smith]

NESARA now!

[lorne]

Now, consider this, which period has experienced fewer recessions and depressions: 1814 to 1910 or 1914 to 2010? Which period spent less total time in recessions? Once you know the answer to that and how much total time the economy spent in recessionary periods during each time frame, you will understand that the Federal Reserve has been largely beneficial. Those that want to end the Federal Reserve, do not know history.

OMG, you'd rather scale the guaranteed 5 to 8% hill of inflation (1914 -2010) over the pre-1914 road because it's .... LESS BUMPY?! Tells me all I need to know right there.

[The Operative]

Now, consider this, which period has experienced fewer recessions and depressions: 1814 to 1910 or 1914 to 2010? Which period spent less total time in recessions? Once you know the answer to that and how much total time the economy spent in recessionary periods during each time frame, you will understand that the Federal Reserve has been largely beneficial. Those that want to end the Federal Reserve, do not know history.

OMG, you'd rather scale the guaranteed 5 to 8% hill of inflation (1914 -2010) over the pre-1914 road because it's .... LESS BUMPY?! Tells me all I need to know right there.

Dear Mental Midget #2,

During the 19th century, there were periods of hyperinflation, typically followed by periods of severe deflation. It is a MYTH that a precious metals backed currency cannot experience inflation. Economists know that DEFLATION is typically more disruptive to an economy than small annual amounts of inflation.

BTW, over the long-term, the average annual rate of inflation from 1913 to 2010 has been an annual average of 3.24%. While there have been some ups and downs, inflation has been exceptionally mild in this country. As economists and smart business people will tell you, inflation helps those who borrow by allowing borrowers to pay back loans with cheaper money later. Also, mild inflation is the most detrimental to those who do not invest their savings but instead put it in a low yield savings account or alternatively, a mattress. Smart people INVEST their savings wisely and over time earn more than the rate of inflation. Smart people will include a relatively small percentage of precious metals in their portfolios but will diversify and earn more than what gold or any other precious metal will earn by itself.

Looking at inflation by itself is a typical mistake by the economically illiterate. Simply because there is inflation, it does not mean that the economy is failing. If overall standard of living increases over the long term at a greater rate than inflation, then the economy is typically healthy and growing. Also, it is possible to have no inflation and yet not have an increase in the overall standard of living. Inflation is an indicator that smart people keep an eye on. It is not some dastardly thing to make bankers rich and keep the people poor.

I brought up the comparison between time periods because many anti-federal reserve conspiracy theory nutjobs claim that the Federal Reserve creates boom and bust cycles. Obviously, that is not the case. Boom and bust cycles are caused by a variety of factors. However, the common factor in practically every cycle has been simple human greed. Regardless of the controlling factors and regardless of the legislation, someone, somewhere, will find a way to game the system and make money. When lots of people and companies do it, it causes a boom that eventually goes bust.

Average annual inflation rate from 1980 to 2010 - 3.25%
Average annual rate of gain in gold from 1979 to 2010 - 5.55%
(I selected 1979 for gold since it made such a sharp increase in late 1979 to early 1980 that the average annual gain for gold from 1980 is only 2.65%, in other words, not even keeping up with inflation)
Average annual rate of gain for S&P 500 index - 7.9%

[The Operative]

If I wanted to know how a nuclear reactor, or the Federal Reserve, worked, I would NOT rely on the illuminati-controlled Ph.D. of either discipline. Do you have any idea how vast & deep the deception runs?

Do you know how stupid that is? I guess not. Congratulations, you have just proven you are a mental midget.

Got to hand it to you; you're good at your game. Unfortunately the outlook for DISINFORMATION going forward is very bearish. The game's almost over. In fact, I'm calling it. The US corporation is bankrupt. WeThePeople have won! Announcements are imminent. All will be revealed.
Thanks for playing!

Blah, blah, blah. Conspiracy nutjobs have been predicting the end of various things for years and years. They are rarely, if ever, correct.

[Gregg]

I'd reccomend every post either of them (well, I'll wink when I imply there are two people this stupid in one universe, I perosnally think more very day they're one both voices in one head) be moved the the "stupid things" thread, but, well, this is the "stupid things" thread....

Looks like Lee Harvey is getting more shrill every day though, maybe he's getting unhinged. Used to be he'd just say stupid things, now he's actually claimed the Treasury is defaulting on Bonds (obvious lie), there is some imminent anouncement coming up, by which I think he means RAP (obvious delusion) and he's not doing a very good job of sperarting his dominent voice out of his sockpuppet posts, obvious, well, it's just obvious.

And he can't get taken seriously even over at LH, where if he gets any reply it's the funtional equal of 'Okay, Lee Harvey, now go sit in the corner while the grownups talk about tax evasion".

Gee, sport, between all this indignity and the hassle of sitting in classes at a middle school all day, your life must suck more than usual right now.

[Harvester]

Welcome to the world of disinformation Lorne. Of course they don't want high inflation, they don't want to be stolen from. But, they must keep you in the game, keep you on the tax farm. It's amazing to watch their contortions as they defend the theft.

Once again, here is the US price level graph 1665-2005 put out by Oregon State:
http://oregonstate.edu/cla/polisci/site ... 2005-1.pdf
Oh yes, the smoother, post-1913 years are WAY better. Better for the Federal Reserve owners to rob everyone blind.

And then realize this graph uses govt numbers, not the real price levels as shown by John Williams of ShadowStats. The actual post-1913 hill is steeper!

[Evil Squirrel Overlord]

Amazing statistics. The prices of a refrigerators, plasma TVs and automobiles have risen significantly since 1665.

[Gregg]

I was born in 1964, and so was the Ford Mustang. So I use the Mustang to play "Economics and inflation in My lifetime"

A Mustang in '64, $2240
2010 Mustang $29,080

WOW, that sure is inflation!

Lets look at differences in equipment and options, though

1964 AM Radio $32
2010 CD player, AM-FM-Satellite, Sync, voice command, 911 assist, No charge, standard

1964 260 CID Engine, 102 HP $130
2010 Fuel injected 3.7L OHC EFI V6 engine, 300 HP Standard, no charge

1964 Padded Safety Dashboard and Seat Belts, $11
2010 full front passenger 2nd gen Airbag, side airbags, 3 point seat belts, etc in finitum...no Charge, standard

1964 Bumper Gaurds, $4.99
2010 active bumper system, no charge, standard

2010 power windows, power remote locking system, passive anti theft system, anti trunk lock, ambient lighting system, easy fill fuel system, 6 speed computer controlled automatic transmission, tires that last 60,000 miles complete computer monitored on board system diagnostic module, power 6 way seats all standard no charge, none of them even available in 1964......

not to even mention it gets 3 times the fuel efficiency, is 10 times more reliable lasts 5 times as long and has a fraction of the ecological impact....

if you consider that in 1964 a stamp was 3 cents, I personally don't see a lot of runaway inflation here.....

[Dr. Caligari]

Our hero's doing fine, btw, plenty of quality time for some reading & writing

...in between sexually satisfying all of his cellmates.

[Nikki]

I was born in 1964, and so was the Ford Mustang. So I use the Mustang to play "Economics and inflation in My lifetime"

A Mustang in '64, $2240
2010 Mustang $29,080

....

Why are you bothering to compare a Falcon with sexy sheet metal with a Mustang?

[grixit]

Our hero's doing fine, btw, plenty of quality time for some reading & writing

Harvey, you are a real dink. Prison is never, ever considered a "quality time" experience. Life changing? Yes, to one degree or another. "Quality time"? Oh Hell no!

It's part of the whole delusionary package. Since being in jail only supports your case then you must be like some other famous prisoners who suffered unjustly and wrote some great works while detained.

Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, who remained inspirational leaders while inside. Paul the apostle is supposed to have written half the New Testament inside a dungeon in Rome. Cervantes wrote Don Quixote while in prison and many sovruns have taken up the "dream the impossible dream" idea. Soviet dissidents took inspiration from their prison experiences. Anne Frank was a prisoner of circumstances. Ignatius of Antioch, revered as a saint for his extensive writing on what was and what was not apostolic christianity, did most of that writing under guard while on the way to be executed in Rome.

Hence, any "reel umereecun" who gets thrown in prison must also be experiencing expanded spirituality and creativity. Surely there would be pulitzers galore, offers of professorships in ethical philosphy, and massive candlight vigils with singing, if not for the machinations of the forces of darkness.

Right?

[Gregg]

Mein Kampf was written in prison, too.

[grixit]

I knew someone would bring that up.

[Gregg]

I'm just sayin'

[Arthur Rubin]

Mein Kampf was written in prison, too.

Godwin?

[Gregg]

I was merely pointing out that not only is some prison work not classic, some is downright bad.

[ASITStands]

Mein Kampf was written in prison, too.

So was much of the New Testament, and it may have a bit more of a lasting value.