Trying to Explain the Fallacy of A4V To Someone.

[JennyD]

Legally, I know that the whole Accepted for Value thing is a crock of batpoo, and I also know the why's and the where's and the how's of the fact that it's a crock, however......

I have now been trying to explain for a while to someone I know, and actually care about (as a friend) that his ride down this rabbit hole is going to end one of two ways. 1) He gets arrested and spends a huge amount of time in jail, or 2) He gets arrested and loses everything he owns on top of it.. He is convinced after months of research that A4V is something in the IRS's own code and that they let it go because they know that it's their own doing, and that it's legal to do.

Before anyone asks, I've explained the fallacy of Strawman, and the "secret bank accounts" that the whole A4V thing is based upon, I've sent him links to people's court cases where it's ended very badly after they've gotten caught, even sent him to here to show the thread about Winston and all of his legal woes..

The response I got back after all of that was:

my ex girlfriend's biz parter discharged $40k... And hes doing fine

My final response was that when the IRS catches up to this guy, he's going to be not only out that 40K but hundreds of thousands of dollars extra in fines, penalties and facing criminal charges. I'm basically at the point of bashing my head into a wall, as I'm at an impasse as to what to say to him that will get him to realize he's about to commit a major crime..

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated..

[LPC]

I'm really not sure how to explain the fallacy of A4V, because I don't know how to explain the fallacy of, or refute, what is nothing but gibberish.

Because that's what "accepted for value" is, gibberish. It's a recital of magical words with no determinable meaning and no sensible explanation.

[Hyrion]

There's a conclusion I've drawn from my experiences of observing both myself and society around me:

• Sometimes, a person must learn a lesson the hard way through their own experience!

I myself, although not in unlawful lessons, had a couple instances of those. I knew better (don't touch that red hot stove or you'll get burned - euphamistic metaphor) and yet I still did. I can't even explain why after years of pondering those two instances (occurred when I was 19).

It looks like this might be one of those situations for your friend. If you haven't done so yet, I'd suggest approaching your friend with the following questions:

• How exactly did your exgirlfriends biz partner (BP) handle the situation? In other words, specifics: What documents were created? What legal principle did the individual use for the approach? etc.

• How is that handling of the situation different from the cases where people were eventually criminally charged, convicted and sent to prison? Again, specifics, how is the document different and how does he honestly expect that will change the legal position?

• If the situations are identical, how can your ex's biz partner hope not to be criminally charged?

• If they are expecting to be criminally charged, when the BP is criminally charged, what defense are they planning to present so s/he can avoid being convicted?

• Is the defense identical to what has already been presented and proven to fail?

• If so, under what logical reasoning is performing the exact same tasks exactly the same way expected to produce a different end result?

As an analogy for the logic:

• the friend cracks an egg into the frying pan, he uses a spatula to mix it up during the cooking process.... does he really honestly expect to get a turkey dinner out of the pan at the end or scrambled eggs?

Good luck in your efforts. One thing I've learned the hard way (even though it doesn't stop me from trying myself) is that you "can't stop someone from destroying themselves if that's really what they want".

[wserra]

"My grandfather smoked two packs a day for 75 years and died of old age at 93."

Maybe so, but that hardly proves that smoking doesn't cause lung cancer, heart disease, emphysema, etc. It proves only that he dodged a bullet.

[notorial dissent]

I've seen mail delivered with savings stamps for postage, remember those, but it doesn't make it legal or mean that everyone can do it.

[grixit]

Ask him what "accepted for value" even means.

If i get my car worked on, at the end of it, the mechanic gives me a bill. And i take the bill-- isn't that "accepting" it? And then, there is "value", namely the amount i have to pay. In fact, if for some reason i were to say out loud "i accept this for value", it would just be a statement of fact, it wouldn't magically mean i don't have to pay. And if i refused to pay, saying they did a lousy job and my car is still not working, it will end up in court, or arbitration, or maybe in front of some regulatory board, regardless of whether i say A4V or not.

[grixit]

Or you could ask your friend, on the other hand, suppose you did something for someone, and instead of paying, they stamped "accepted for value on your bill"-- would you say, fine, you don't have to pay?

Or how about if you had a regular job and at the end of the week, instead of paying you, the boss just accepted for value your time card?

[.]

Tell your buddy he needs to consult a lawyer.

Or, if he won't spend a few bucks to get personal advice before he jumps off his cliff, which is probably many thousands or tens of thousands of dollars high, tell him to read this thread.

If he shows up and asks a question, some of the many lawyers here (at least a half-dozen, without thinking too hard) will probably be happy to give him plenty of free general advice which might apply to his situation. With the usual disclaimers, of course.

If he can't be bothered to do either, then, well, he's probably a lost cause and will have to learn his lesson the hard way.

[Patriotdiscussions]

While you all may be lawyers and tax guys, it is more then clear that psychology escapes you folks.

Jenny, beliefs control our information intake. Imagine your mind as a computer and our beliefs as our virus protection. The mind processes so much more information then you could imagine, as such it has shortcuts to weed thru Information. Our beliefs control what info we take in. When someone has a belief/preconceived notion, then unless the information agrees with your belief then it is disregarded as false.

Of course I more then likely don't know what I'm talking about.

But talking to you friend is not going to change his mind, you could use fact,charts,graphs,etc. heck you could have famspear woo him at dinner.

People are the only ones who can change their beliefs and they only do that when they evaluate them for themself. I don't think I need to tell you the % of people who look at how their beliefs were formed.

If we know of this trap we can avoid it, sadly this information is not taught in school, college perhaps but not anything below.

The only way I could suggest reaching him is to have someone who speaks the same gibberish as him talk to him. No one else can deconstruct his beliefs.

Btw from everything I have seen a4v is crap.

Good luck to you.

[Famspear]

While you all may be lawyers and tax guys, it is more then clear that psychology escapes you folks.

No, psychology doesn't escape us.

I'm not a psychologist, and I don't claim expertise in the field, but I'm confident I know more about psychology than you do.

In particular, I have been studying people like you for over 15 years. And I'm reasonably confident I understand you, in certain ways, better than you understand yourself.

[JamesVincent]

The king and his men
stole the queen from her bed,
and bound her in her bones.
The seas be ours, and by the powers;
where we will, we'll roam.

Yo ho, all hands,
hoist the colors high.
Heave ho, thieves and beggars;
never shall we die.

Some men have died and some are alive;
and others sail on the sea.
With the keys to the cage
and the devil to pay,
we lay to the fiddler's green.

Yo ho haul together,
hoist the colors high.
Heave ho, thieves and beggars;
never shall we die.

The bell has been raised
from its watery grave,
hear its sepulchral tone.
A call to all; pay heed the squall,
and turn your sails to home.

Yo ho, haul together,
hoist the colors high.
Heave ho, thieves and beggars;
never shall we die.

Yo ho, all together,
hoist the colors high.
Heave ho, thieves and beggars;
never shall we die.

Yo ho, all together,
hoist the colors high.
Heave ho, thieves and beggars;
never shall we die.

The king and his men
stole the queen from her bed,
and bound her in her bones.
The seas be ours, and by the powers;
where we will; we'll roam.

[Patriotdiscussions]

While you all may be lawyers and tax guys, it is more then clear that psychology escapes you folks.

No, psychology doesn't escape us.

I'm not a psychologist, and I don't claim expertise in the field, but I'm confident I know more about psychology than you do.

In particular, I have been studying people like you for over 15 years. And I'm reasonably confident I understand you, in certain ways, better than you understand yourself.

People like me for years eh?

Do you always wear your beliefs on your sleeve?

I knew I could count on you to prove a point fam.

[Patriotdiscussions]

While you all may be lawyers and tax guys, it is more then clear that psychology escapes you folks.

No, psychology doesn't escape us.

I'm not a psychologist, and I don't claim expertise in the field, but I'm confident I know more about psychology than you do.

In particular, I have been studying people like you for over 15 years. And I'm reasonably confident I understand you, in certain ways, better than you understand yourself.

Great you know so much, I'd like to hear you pontificate on the merits of nlp.

[JennyD]

Or you could ask your friend, on the other hand, suppose you did something for someone, and instead of paying, they stamped "accepted for value on your bill"-- would you say, fine, you don't have to pay?

Or how about if you had a regular job and at the end of the week, instead of paying you, the boss just accepted for value your time card?

I'm replying to everyone, as everyone had great answers, but this one just sticks out and it should have been as plain as the nose on my face, except that I am so frustrated at this guy.. I am going to use this one.. Thanks guys/girls Made my day..

[Judge Roy Bean]

...
The response I got back after all of that was:

my ex girlfriend's biz parter [sic] discharged $40k... And hes [sic] doing fine

Nonsense.

This is one of the common tenets of such claims - proof can't be produced for any number of reasons and the stories proliferate.

[Hyrion]

The only way I could suggest reaching him is to have someone who speaks the same gibberish as him talk to him.

Wow..... right after you stated:

it is more then clear that psychology escapes you folks.

Given there's nothing in this thread to outline the beliefs of the individual in question with the only exception that he's interested in trying out A4V himself, your suggestion is essentially:

• Have someone that believes in A4V talk him out of A4V

Double wow. You honestly expect another person who has bought into A4V to talk him out of it?

The other A4V believer is exactly who is talking him into A4V.

You might want to give some thought of judging others ability to understand psychology when you offer such suggestions as "have someone who believes in A4V talk the individual out of A4V".

[Patriotdiscussions]

The only way I could suggest reaching him is to have someone who speaks the same gibberish as him talk to him.

Wow..... right after you stated:

it is more then clear that psychology escapes you folks.

Given there's nothing in this thread to outline the beliefs of the individual in question with the only exception that he's interested in trying out A4V himself, your suggestion is essentially:

• Have someone that believes in A4V talk him out of A4V

Double wow. You honestly expect another person who has bought into A4V to talk him out of it?

The other A4V believer is exactly who is talking him into A4V.

You might want to give some thought of judging others ability to understand psychology when you offer such suggestions as "have someone who believes in A4V talk the individual out of A4V".

Maybe reading comprehension has failed you, he speaks sov gibberish. Clearly I meant to have someone who can speak his gibberish, aka sov but someone who knows a4v has no merits.

Clearly you would not ask a racist to talk to another racist about the pitfalls of racism.

Another highly educated citizen no doubt.

[LPC]

While you all may be lawyers and tax guys, it is more then clear that psychology escapes you folks.

Jenny, beliefs control our information intake. Imagine your mind as a computer and our beliefs as our virus protection. The mind processes so much more information then you could imagine, as such it has shortcuts to weed thru Information. Our beliefs control what info we take in. When someone has a belief/preconceived notion, then unless the information agrees with your belief then it is disregarded as false.

So, someone who comes onto this forum with preconceived notions is going to disregard information that disagrees with their preconceived notions?

The irony is obviously lost on PD. It just went "whoosh" over his head.

It's like someone who pontificates about "psychology," but is absolutely clueless when it comes to applying any psychological self-awareness to themselves.

People are the only ones who can change their beliefs and they only do that when they evaluate them for themself.

Right. And they don't "evaluate" because they disregard information that disagrees with their preconceived notions.

Weren't you listening to what you wrote above?

I don't think I need to tell you the % of people who look at how their beliefs were formed.

Once again, the irony is going to go "whoosh" over someone's head.

[.]

Our blind squirrel has finally found a nut:

I more then [sic] likely don't know what I'm talking about.

Had to happen eventually, his grammatical challenges notwithstanding. And not just more than likely. To a certainty. Demonstrated across a broad range of topics from tax law to psychology.

Bravo, PD, bravo. You are the single best troll/nincompoop we've seen in the last year or so.

[Patriotdiscussions]

While you all may be lawyers and tax guys, it is more then clear that psychology escapes you folks.

Jenny, beliefs control our information intake. Imagine your mind as a computer and our beliefs as our virus protection. The mind processes so much more information then you could imagine, as such it has shortcuts to weed thru Information. Our beliefs control what info we take in. When someone has a belief/preconceived notion, then unless the information agrees with your belief then it is disregarded as false.

So, someone who comes onto this forum with preconceived notions is going to disregard information that disagrees with their preconceived notions?

The irony is obviously lost on PD. It just went "whoosh" over his head.

It's like someone who pontificates about "psychology," but is absolutely clueless when it comes to applying any psychological self-awareness to themselves.

People are the only ones who can change their beliefs and they only do that when they evaluate them for themself.

Right. And they don't "evaluate" because they disregard information that disagrees with their preconceived notions.

Weren't you listening to what you wrote above?

I don't think I need to tell you the % of people who look at how their beliefs were formed.

Once again, the irony is going to go "whoosh" over someone's head.

As if asking questions indicated beliefs in a subject, your batting 1000 there slugger.