Robert 'Crab Bait' White consents to losing his houses

[Footloose52]

Very much so - there will have been the endowment policy and possibly level term assurance so that on the death of one party the mortgage would be repaid. He's possibly been dug out of a hole on his house.

Wouldn't the OR want a slice of the action though. Mind you there might be enough of a surplus to keep the OR off his back on the former matrimonial home ...

Surely the same point would apply, the OR should have first call on any payout, and will decide where the money goes. So question, would an insurance company know someone was bankrupt and that the payment should go to their trustee?

But it is not necessarily his money, it could well be in her estate and pays off the mortgage as it is equally a liability of her estate as it is Crabbies liability (joint and several liability), the OR doesn't have any call on the late Mrs Crabs estate, only any assets that belong to Crabbie. It all depends on the terms under which the insurance policy(s) were written.

Crabbie may well, depending on the terms of her will, ultimately inherit her assets and/or any cash which is where the OR will step in. Once her estate is wound up the house is his, free and clear of any charge. Could the OR conceivably go after the house at that point?

[hucknallred]

I think we're into wild speculation here folks. Crabbie stopped paying his mortgage a couple of years ago.
From looking at Nethouseprices.com his house changed hands in 2010, so safe to assume that was when he bought it.
Pretty sure they weren't selling endowment mortgages then. Even if there was some life cover attached, surely this would have gone out the window when he stopped paying the mortgage.

I don't think the late Mrs. White should really be a subject of discussion on here, I thought we were better than that.

[Comrade Sharik]

I don't think the late Mrs. White should really be a subject of discussion on here, I thought we were better than that.

Seconded.

[ArthurWankspittle]

I think we're into wild speculation here folks. Crabbie stopped paying his mortgage a couple of years ago.
From looking at Nethouseprices.com his house changed hands in 2010, so safe to assume that was when he bought it.
Pretty sure they weren't selling endowment mortgages then. Even if there was some life cover attached, surely this would have gone out the window when he stopped paying the mortgage.

I don't think the late Mrs. White should really be a subject of discussion on here, I thought we were better than that.

Yes we are into wild speculation and what programmers call Compound IFs. I was mulling over calling a halt but, pleasingly, you are dealing with this amongst yourselves in a reasonable manner, and I thank you for doing that. Further, unless Mr White makes the details public, I doubt whether this information is or will be available as public record.

[mufc1959]

Crabbie's expanded on his Facebook post from the other day about the retrial in May 2020. It seems he's learned nothing ...

[AnOwlCalledSage]

I think we're into wild speculation here folks.

Yes. There is a difference between extrapolating known precedence of previous rulings and wishful thinking. We also have a live criminal case which at the minimum is going to be projected into next year. From his own words, I suspect he has tried to noble the jury and therefore the trial has been abandoned. This can be gleaned for his comments about a pro se trial.

It is reasonable for the CPS to be made aware of comments made on various forums which may undermine any proposed defence (and will not reiterate them here but I hope they are cognoscent of the relevant posts), but purely speculative comments are not really what we do here.

The irony is that a properly directed barrister would have the case pled down to a non-custodial outcome and it would have been all over by now with at most a fine.

[NYGman]

AH, but a simple fine would prove nothing. Crabby needs to be acquitted of the Affray to somehow prove he isn't bankrupt. Not quite sure how he plans to connect the dots, but apparently if you rough someone up, and win in court, you get a free house. Makes perfect sense to me.

[TBL]

For us non-lawyers, what does "noble the jury" mean?

[John Uskglass]

Isn't nobling the way you get a jury of your peers?

Me coat's on, I'm not stopping.

[longdog]

Surely the same point would apply, the OR should have first call on any payout, and will decide where the money goes. So question, would an insurance company know someone was bankrupt and that the payment should go to their trustee?

Is that right? I thought the whole point of an endowment policy was that the lender was the beneficiary and got paid directly on the death of the insured.

Or am I just making shit up?

[citation needed]

[JimUk1]

Surely the same point would apply, the OR should have first call on any payout, and will decide where the money goes. So question, would an insurance company know someone was bankrupt and that the payment should go to their trustee?

Is that right? I thought the whole point of an endowment policy was that the lender was the beneficiary and got paid directly on the death of the insured.

Or am I just making shit up?

[citation needed]

I think we should go the to endowment expert for the citation, Tom Crawford.

Least us forget, endowments have lifespan of only 25 years so Crabster only needs to hold firm for X number of years.

[aesmith]

Assuming he's paying the premiums

[AnOwlCalledSage]

For us non-lawyers, what does "noble the jury" mean?

Auto correct error. should have read "nobble", although now I think of it nobling the jury could be fun!

[ArthurWankspittle]

Is that right? I thought the whole point of an endowment policy was that the lender was the beneficiary and got paid directly on the death of the insured.

It may or may not be "assigned" to the beneficiary. IIRC the law or practice changed to prevent this being automatic, the reasoning being that it was onerous for the lender to have control over the proceeds of the policy, and there may be circumstances in which the payout was better used than to pay off the mortgage. Not often but the possibility existed.

[Footloose52]

The lender would normally take a 'charge' over the policy meaning that any proceeds are paid direct to the lender, not the beneficiary named in the policy.

[mufc1959]

For us non-lawyers, what does "noble the jury" mean?

I think he means 'nobble', i.e. corrupt.

[mufc1959]

The lender would normally take a 'charge' over the policy meaning that any proceeds are paid direct to the lender, not the beneficiary named in the policy.

Charging endowment policies ended in the 1980s. Rather, they would be assigned to the lender - that is, a notice of assignment would be sent to the endowment provider which said that the policy proceeds are to be paid direct. This is different from charging the police (where a separate Deed of Mortgage of LIfe Policy would be signed), but I'm a lawyer and a pedant.

As per Tom Crawford's case, once the policyholder stops paying the premiums or cancels the policy, the policy provider alerts the lender, who then writes to the customer explaining their options which are (a) convert the mortgage to repayment (Tom C couldn't afford this); or (b) stay on interest-only, but make sure you've got some way of paying the money back. We all know how that ended up for Tom.

All this has changed now, as MCOB (mortgage regulation) is strict about the sale of interest-only mortgages where there is no repayment vehicle. But in the 1980s, this was the usual course of events.

Of course, none of this applies to a life policy, which only pays out on death and which doesn't need to be assigned to the lender. If a policyholder cancels a life policy, the lender wouldn't know or get involved.

[ArthurWankspittle]

As per Tom Crawford's case, once the policyholder stops paying the premiums or cancels the policy, the policy provider alerts the lender, who then writes to the customer explaining their options which are (a) convert the mortgage to repayment (Tom C couldn't afford this); or (b) stay on interest-only, but make sure you've got some way of paying the money back. We all know how that ended up for Tom.

One of the things that specifically irritates me about the Crawford case was that, as far as I can remember, no action was taken by the Crawfords at the time the endowment was cancelled (by one or both of the Crawfords). The lender would have written to them and it was clearly shown what happened in the court case, i.e. the policy was cancelled and refunded. It was only several years later a review (I suspect across all mortgage holders) triggered contact with the Crawfords and it appears at that point Tom chose to do nothing about it, with the eventual consequences that occurred. When you examine the history, Tom claims the endowment ended on several different occasions, none of which were his fault.

10th July 1992. Tom claims B&B surrendered the endowment on this day without telling either him or his wife. I don't have a date for when this claim was made.

22nd January 1999. B&B claim to receive a telephone call from a Crawford (but not Tom) saying they stopped paying the endowment four years earlier.

28th April 2006. Crawfords telephone B&B claiming that B&B have cashed the endowment.

April 2013. The Crawfords complain to the Ombudsman that they were making payments into an endowment up to 1999 and that the endowment policy has been lost. Ombudsman rejected claim.

2nd February 2015. Tom claims that the payments to the B&B included the endowment and that the B&B had changed the mortgage conditions.

So the endowment:
Stopped 10/07/1992 by B&B
Stopped 1995 presumably reported by Sue
Was cashed 2006 or before by B&B
Was paid up to 1999 lost by B&B or other
Was included in the mortgage from some previous point up to Feb 2015 - changed by B&B.

[TBL]

For us non-lawyers, what does "noble the jury" mean?

I think he means 'nobble', i.e. corrupt.

I appreciate the explanation as "nobble" isn't in the dialect for us across the pond.

[AnOwlCalledSage]

I appreciate the explanation as "nobble" isn't in the dialect for us across the pond.

I recently discovered that the anglo-saxon vernacular for "trump" is also not well known in the former colonies