Random Freemanesque Babblings from idiots unable to sustain their own thread

[exiledscouser]

Anyone wanting a detailed account of why 'Robinson' is not a free speech martyr should go here -
https://thesecretbarrister.com/2018/05/ ... -robinson/

And Yaxley-Lennon's silence on a "white" grooming case in February is all you need know about his real motivation.

The braying mob are also silent on the fact that TR actually admitted the offence. Some SJW - Not!

[Hercule Parrot]

Anyone wanting a detailed account of why 'Robinson' is not a free speech martyr should go here -
https://thesecretbarrister.com/2018/05/ ... -robinson/

"If the key to turning up the online volume is a snappy tone and uncompromising beatdown of idiots and liars, then that’s the game I’ll play."

Can someone invite this "secret barrister" chappie to our next Illuminati Lodge Meeting (not the bowling tournament on Friday, the next formal meeting)? I think he belongs in our ranks.

[longdog]

Anyone wanting a detailed account of why 'Robinson' is not a free speech martyr should go here -
https://thesecretbarrister.com/2018/05/ ... -robinson/

"If the key to turning up the online volume is a snappy tone and uncompromising beatdown of idiots and liars, then that’s the game I’ll play."

Can someone invite this "secret barrister" chappie to our next Illuminati Lodge Meeting (not the bowling tournament on Friday, the next formal meeting)? I think he belongs in our ranks.

The bowling tournament will be over before sunset won't it?

[Siegfried Shrink]

The bowling tournament will be over before sunset won't it?

I can see how it would be tricky if that old werewolf starts to manifest, players who can't help chasing the ball down the lane can get the whole party chucked out even if no shape changing is involved.

[SteveUK]

Introducing Yvonne Walsh from the fair Emerald Isle. Currently incarcerated for contempt after refusing to get out of her house and now on hunger strike.

Posession was granted and she launched an appeal. Her bizare argument being the old 'the state must house me'.

Mr Justice Peart, giving the judgment, said, while the woman contended she had obtained orders in family law proceedings including for a right of residence in the property and, if she complied with the order to vacate, would be surrendering her family law rights, those issues had been “conclusively” determined against her in earlier proceedings.

The judge said she can leave jail if she agrees to shift, but she stubbornly clings to the advice given by her 'lawyer', weird business man Jerry Beades. An expert on not paying mortgages, he hasn't made a single payment on a £2m mortgage for years.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-a ... -1.3539251

She herself owes around £2m on a property now worth only half of that, so good luck.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-a ... -1.3539253

Naturally, the local 'rescue groups' are jumping all over it.
https://www.facebook.com/AntiEvictionTa ... 7743214119

[Hercule Parrot]

Naturally, the local 'rescue groups' are jumping all over it.
https://www.facebook.com/AntiEvictionTa ... 7743214119

Truly bizarre. There was a similar recent case in Ireland where some chap was being evicted from a massive house, one of dozens of properties he had acquired through very dubious speculation during the tulip-scale Celtic Tiger boom. The activists were in uproar that he might have to move into one of his other homes, despite the fact that his (now bankrupted) wealth had been built from speculative borrowing and usurious landlordism.

People who campaign for the right and needs of the homeless should cheer as these parasitic profiteers are brought down by their own greed. Instead they weep and rage as if their exploiters are fellow victims. Yvonne Walsh seems to be cut from the same cloth - no thought of renting an affordable home within her means, instead she wants their creditors to give her a £1m luxury house. If the Irish legal system permits this to happen, ordinary people benefit in no way at all.

[TheRambler]

I am not really sure where to post this as it doesn't seem to merit a thread of its own, but "freemanesque babblngs" seems to fit the bill quite well.

I have been a lurker on this forum for quite a long time, my interest in the Freeman Philosophy(?)\Movement(?) having been sparked by a UK Firearms case I was following https://ukshootingnews.wordpress.com/20 ... n-dealing/ that threw up a Freeman link:

http://www.courtofrecord.uk/gicor/recor ... r-2015.pdf

start reading at line 245
and
http://www.courtofrecord.uk/gicor/recor ... r-2016.pdf
Start on page 3

The main protagonists are Joseph Ray Sundarsson Guru\Judge of the Court of Record: http://www.courtofrecord.org.uk/ whose name already appears in this forum.

Michael Burke - Bailiff of the Court of Record and associated with UK Right to Keep and Bear Arms (RKBA); there's a really dead horse!: http://www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/posting ... 52&t=10855#
https://misesuk.org/2014/12/22/the-brit ... r-defence/
http://magnacartasocietyblog.blogspot.c ... story.html

Peter Frenette: Former Registered Firearms Dealer (RFD)
Alan David Smith: Likewise, following his prosecution that arose from Frenette's case but went largely unreported due to its technical nature (No stocking masks and sub-post offices?)

Sunadarsonn has another link that is largely unreported to Keir Argent through the company Keison International of which Sundarsonnn was appointed a director in December 2015.

The company is in administration and the Administrator's Progress Reports make interesting reading:

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... ng-history

However, that is the background to the interest I have developed in the Freeman phenomena. What has caught my attention is what can only be described as an air of delusion amongst its adherents. The gurus; as usual; seem opportunistic and cynical but those attracted to "Freemanism" in many cases appear to have been otherwise sensible and intelligent people who quite quickly join the "swivel eyed" conspiracy sector. many of them seem to vastly overrate their importance in the eyes of the authorities, e.g. they are convinced that the police have them under 24 hour surveillance and that it is unsafe to use the phone. the longer it goes on, the further their ship sails from the shores of reality, but fines, imprisonment or whatever never seems to shake their belief that that it isn't paranoia because that KNOW that they're out to get THEM!!

Has there been any psychological profiling carried out on freemen? I know it sounds a bit police stateish, but have any common traits and attributes been found? It is clearly a phenomena, linked in many ways to conspiracy theorism and I would be interested if anyone could point my in the direction of relevant research.

Thanks,
TheRambler

[Burnaby49]

Welcome to Quatloos Rambler! Did you take your name from the UK public pathway preservation society? How did their fight against Madonna go? I've contacted them a few times in the past to report bulls in fields and guard dogs blocking pathways.

On to your question. Academics here in Canada have produced a few papers but I wouldn't recommend most of them. They seem to have written them without actually going out and getting their hands dirty by actually interacting with their subjects. Way too abstract. You could try this paper by Barbara Perry but it may not be on topic with what you are looking for.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _in_Canada

The best source of academic works on Freeman that I know of is our own contributor Donald Netolitzky. You can toss his name in the search bar up top or rummage through his posts here;

http://www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/search. ... 4&sr=posts

His works are also easily located via google.

[JohnPCapitalist]

Has there been any psychological profiling carried out on freemen? I know it sounds a bit police stateish, but have any common traits and attributes been found? It is clearly a phenomena, linked in many ways to conspiracy theorism and I would be interested if anyone could point my in the direction of relevant research.

I don't know what psychological profiling has been carried out, but I think that perusing this forum and others dedicated to exposing (and often, mocking) this crew would surface some common threads.

First, for the most part, freemen/SovCits tend to be older, white and male, though there is an exploding population of "Moorish" sovereign citizens in the US, who are evolving their own subculture and terminology. Ironic, given the racist roots of the movement. I think there's a fairly high correlation around these two population clusters.

Second, they tend to have had some sort of "triggering event" that made them embrace aggressively something that they may have only expressed moderate interest in the past. This is often one of three things: a proceeding by federal or local tax authorities, removal of a child by Child Protective Services, or a foreclosure.

In the US, there's also a significant population that focus on the "right to travel" without license, registration or insurance. There may have been a triggering event because of license suspensions from traffic violations or from driving while intoxicated, or it may be the ongoing pressure of the economics of poverty. I've argued here and in other fora that license, personal property taxes on auto, registration and insurance is an outsized percentage of the annual income of the downtrodden, and trying to eliminate those expenses may be the only thing that these people can affect, as they typically can't affect cost of food, shelter and heating all that much. So searching for some magic way that pretends to offer a way out of that expense can be alluring. Never mind that the results of having one's car seized for registration and insurance can mean losing the car, and thus to job loss and thus to homelessness.

Third, there's probably a tendency towards magical thinking. That most likely goes hand-in-hand with a lack of education, but not necessarily. They see lawyers using "magic words" in court to achieve a result. In their prior brushes with the justice system, they've been steered to a result that they feel that they didn't deserve, such as being encouraged to cop a plea deal. When someone comes along offering magic words that are guaranteed to get you acquitted, some percentage will go down the rabbit hole. Many of these fools have wasted years of their lives "studying" the law without any sort of context such as you'd get in law school, or even reading "Fight Your Own Traffic Ticket for Dummies."

Fourth, they're probably emotionally stunted, and are often borderline sociopaths, thinking their needs and desires should always trump everyone else's. The right to drive without insurance should be afforded to them, not to the slob without insurance who hits their car. That guy should be summarily executed. They have no understanding that there are compromises required to live in a civilized society and to reap all the benefits that entails.

Also, I think many of these types live in rural areas. They're not as likely to get caught as in an urban area, and cops may let them off for reasons that have nothing to do with their magic incantations working. The cop may simply not want to hassle with all the paperwork, or they may cut the guy a break because he knows that taking someone's car would result in their becoming homeless. They mistake compassion for success.

In the lily-white wealthy exurbs where I live, a fake SovCit license plate would not survive the first contact with a police officer. Most police departments around here have automated license plate scanners that instantly report back expired registration, insurance, or problems with the driving record of the registered owner. Most departments with these do not give officers discretion -- if the scanner reports a hit, they have to stop and cite the driver. So SovCits are not likely to be children of wealthier and more urban areas.

[TheRambler]

Burnaby49

Thank you. I shall have a look a at Barbara Perry's papers and see if I can glean anything there.

I have read some of Donald Netolitzky's posts already and found them informative. I shall now read them more thoroughly.

"TheRambler" - more a description of how my brain works these days than anything else!

Fourth, they're probably emotionally stunted, and are often borderline sociopaths, thinking their needs and desires should always trump everyone else's. The right to drive without insurance should be afforded to them, not to the slob without insurance who hits their car. That guy should be summarily executed. They have no understanding that there are compromises required to live in a civilized society and to reap all the benefits that entails.

That one hit me right between the eyes! It so well describes the attitudes of the admittedly limited number of freemen that I have had the opportunity to meet or observe.

First, for the most part, freemen/SovCits tend to be older, white and male,

In my limited experience, in the UK at least, this is also the case.

It is also clear that some are perennial members of the "awkward squad". They're like that because they're made that way. They enjoy having a structure to express their bloody mindedness. Although they may be of above average intelligence they tend not to have long term friends or stable relationships.

Thank you both for your input.

TheRambler

[John Uskglass]

Has there been any psychological profiling carried out on freemen? I know it sounds a bit police stateish, but have any common traits and attributes been found? It is clearly a phenomena, linked in many ways to conspiracy theorism and I would be interested if anyone could point my in the direction of relevant research.

I'd argue that there's a strong relationship betweeen FMOTLism and querulous paranoia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Querulant

a querulant (from the Latin querulus - "complaining") is a person who obsessively feels wronged, particularly about minor causes of action. In particular the term is used for those who repeatedly petition authorities or pursue legal actions based on manifestly unfounded grounds.

Where there's a difference between FMOTL's and querulants would seem to be in the importance of the matters which they choose to take up the cudgels over. Querulants typically become obsessed with objectively trivial matters, whereas, despite the fact that they're delusional in the remedies they seek and how they seek them, many of the FMOTL's are battling over matters which would be important to rational people. Wreka Patel may have brought her troubles on herself, and be manifestly batshit in her actions, but losing one's home and a big chunk of cash is a big deal. Same with Crawford.

Again, while the Article 61 crowd gaggle have no understanding of constitutional matters, the questions they are addressing about the balance of rights between state and citizen are ones which also exercise more subtle and knowledgeable minds.

Nonetheless, anyone whose worked in the public sector dealing with customers/clients will recognise the toneof FMOTL discourse as remarkably similar to those individuals who are identifiable as querulants.

[TheRambler]

a querulant (from the Latin querulus - "complaining") is a person who obsessively feels wronged, particularly about minor causes of action. In particular the term is used for those who repeatedly petition authorities or pursue legal actions based on manifestly unfounded grounds

Thank you John, quite a few points of similarity with the “awkward squad”.

There seem to be many different hues of freeman which maybe isn’t surprising for a philosophy that has no discernible structure rather a series of informal local networks. How would it have fared without the internet\social media? Is it possibly a harbinger of the future?

I take your point about the Article 61 debate, it is something that should be of concern to a wider constituency but the current protagonists act as something of a disincentive.

Nonetheless, anyone whose worked in the public sector dealing with customers/clients will recognise the toneof FMOTL discourse as remarkably similar to those individuals who are identifiable as querulants.

I always enjoyed the bit where they threatened to write to their MP. I used to tell them who it was and how to get in touch with them. They never seemed to understand cooperation and assistance.

TheRambler

[Hercule Parrot]

Sunadarsonn has another link that is largely unreported to Keir Argent through the company Keison International of which Sundarsonnn was appointed a director in December 2015.

The company is in administration and the Administrator's Progress Reports make interesting reading:

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... ng-history

Welcome, Rambler! Your curiosity is at home here.

We've touched upon Keison before - http://www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/viewtop ... 86#p248586

[Mike_p]

Although they may be of above average intelligence ...

TheRambler

This does confuse me somewhat.

As far as I'm aware two of the major determinants of intelligence are
1/ problem solving
2/ pattern recognition

In all the FMOTL buffonery about which I've read here, these are the two mental characteristics that have been most evidently absent.

1/ the FMOTL peeps have failed to solve the simple problem of avoiding getting into trouble by following the same laws the the rest of the general population accept.

2/ The FMOTL peeps manifestly ignore the pattern of failure that follows when they disrespect the laws aforementioned.

[Hercule Parrot]

The company is in administration and the Administrator's Progress Reports make interesting reading:
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... ng-history

Crikey, Keir Argent has wrought a total destruction of his own business. The administrator's reports contain repeated references to him interfering, obstructing and sabotaging their work. Their fees, payable from the business, rise from the initial estimate of £250k to well over £1m. Further astonishing sums are spent, payable from the business, on legal proceedings and security staff. This prosperous international business with a multi-million annual turnover is finally sold off to a management buyout for barely £700k.

Argent's persistent and blatant breach of numerous court orders finally caught up with him -
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/upl ... 160913.pdf

Do we know what came next?

[JohnPCapitalist]

As far as I'm aware two of the major determinants of intelligence are
1/ problem solving
2/ pattern recognition

In all the FMOTL buffonery about which I've read here, these are the two mental characteristics that have been most evidently absent.

1/ the FMOTL peeps have failed to solve the simple problem of avoiding getting into trouble by following the same laws the the rest of the general population accept.

2/ The FMOTL peeps manifestly ignore the pattern of failure that follows when they disrespect the laws aforementioned.

Intelligence may not be the issue here. I'd say that "variable reward systems" overpower intelligence in the minds of the typical SovCit. They think because they don't get jailed for the first few iterations of their pseudolegal incantations that they must be working. Then, without warning, the Giant Sledgehammer of Destiny swings into action and crushes them utterly. Casinos would be out of business without human weakness for variable reward systems. We just can't help ourselves.

[John Uskglass]

As far as I'm aware two of the major determinants of intelligence are
1/ problem solving
2/ pattern recognition

In all the FMOTL buffonery about which I've read here, these are the two mental characteristics that have been most evidently absent.

I think there's a reasonable argument that an excess of pattern recognition is part of the reason that people fall into FMOTLism. The whole admiralty courts/lost at sea/leaving the sinking ship business could be viewed as seeing patterns that aren't there. And some of the wilder interpretations of the 'real' meaning of words always feel close to the over layering of meaning that occurs in some cases of schizophrenia.

Pattern recognition is a tricky thing to get right in Darwinian terms - too little and the tiger eats you, too much and you spend all your time jumping at shadows.

Maria Konnikova's 'The Confidence Game', a study of why people fall for scams, has an interesting section on how pattern recognition plays into the process of being deceived.

[longdog]

As far as I'm aware two of the major determinants of intelligence are
1/ problem solving
2/ pattern recognition

In all the FMOTL buffonery about which I've read here, these are the two mental characteristics that have been most evidently absent.

I think there's a reasonable argument that an excess of pattern recognition is part of the reason that people fall into FMOTLism. The whole admiralty courts/lost at sea/leaving the sinking ship business could be viewed as seeing patterns that aren't there. And some of the wilder interpretations of the 'real' meaning of words always feel close to the over layering of meaning that occurs in some cases of schizophrenia.

Pattern recognition is a tricky thing to get right in Darwinian terms - too little and the tiger eats you, too much and you spend all your time jumping at shadows.

Maria Konnikova's 'The Confidence Game', a study of why people fall for scams, has an interesting section on how pattern recognition plays into the process of being deceived.

Given that most Footlers are also conspiracy theorists generally I suspect there's a lot of truth to that.

[Mike_p]

Pattern recognition is a tricky thing to get right in Darwinian terms - too little and the tiger eats you, too much and you spend all your time jumping at shadows.

The point about pattern recognition as a measure on intelligence is that high intelligence correlates to accurate pattern recognition.

[SteveUK]

What an idiot.........It seemed he dazzled the court with his legal genius, only to not win.

Wayne Palir I've just been done by cps .... destroyed the coppers on the stand .... but they were credible ... me my knowledge and my case law completely ignored ... now to appeal