Prosperity Scam: IUV Exchange, One Peoples Public Trust, Pro

[notorial dissent]

Yeah, the net result is -0- !!! If everyone has $10 billion dollars then it is the same as having $1, you can't buy anything more with it than before because the economy would still be in the same place. These are people whose mind, critical thinking function, shuts down at the sight of large numbers, which isn't to say all that unusual, most people, once you go over a certain value have no concept of what the larger number is. That however, implies the possibility of critical thinking, which seems to be totally absent in the OPPT crowd, as they have proven time and time again, and many/most of them were that way long beforehand.

[AndyK]

All these potential billionaires are clearly ignorant of the 'loaf of bread' rule.

That is, what does / will a loaf of bread cost.

Today, I can buy an excellent, artisan loaf of bread for around US$ 3.00.

If everyone along the farming / production / retail line of that loaf of bread becomes overnight billionaires, they won't be willing to sell anything for less than an astronomical amount -- easily in the thousands of dollars per loaf.

The only things which will not see prices go up are existing outstanding debts and existing fixed incomes.

[Pottapaug1938]

All these potential billionaires are clearly ignorant of the 'loaf of bread' rule.

That is, what does / will a loaf of bread cost.

Today, I can buy an excellent, artisan loaf of bread for around US$ 3.00.

If everyone along the farming / production / retail line of that loaf of bread becomes overnight billionaires, they won't be willing to sell anything for less than an astronomical amount -- easily in the thousands of dollars per loaf.

The only things which will not see prices go up are existing outstanding debts and existing fixed incomes.

I say the same thing to survivalists who are stashing gold in the expectation of what, I suspect, is the Apocalypse for which they not-so-subtlely hope. If you are sitting there in your hilltop bunker, with your stash of gold, and you need something from me -- say, one of my axes, the cost of my axe will not be what it would cost in FRNs today. It will be on the order of one or more ounces of your carefully-hoarded gold.

[notorial dissent]

Quite true, as you point out, if everyone has $10B then all that will happen will be a weird type of hyper inflation where everything will simply adjust upwards by a whole lot of decimal points and still effectively cost the same, just with a lot more zeros added. They never seem to get to that part at all.

Aside form the inconvenient little fact that there isn’t that much gold and or precious metal for that matter, to back it, and that the thing that makes precious metal valuable is that it is well precious, or to put it in dingbat language, scarce/rare/not much of.

So even if EVERYONE has $10B in gold backed money, it still won’t be worth anything by the time they get done because EVERYONE will be on the same footing, and if there is that much gold, it won’t be worth what it is now anyway, and so kind of defeats the pretend anyway.

Common sense and basic economics seems to elude this crowd in toto.

Andy has a really good point here re: the survivalists. If it comes down to that, my axe, or the eggs my chickens lay are worth more than the gold they have, and probably isn’t going to be worth much to me since I can’t eat it or do anything really useful other than sit on it. That’s another thing that those dingbats never seem to twig to, is that if it all goes to pot, the corner market isn’t going to be there to take their hoarded treasure, and if there is some equivalent they will set the price. Kind of like eggs in the mining camps going for a $1 a piece, or whatever the owners felt like charging. Considering what a $1 was worth at the time, that’ll give you a limited but good idea.

[DailyPlanet]

"Quite true, as you point out, if everyone has $10B then all that will happen will be a weird type of hyper inflation where everything will simply adjust upwards by a whole lot of decimal points and still effectively cost the same, just with a lot more zeros added. They never seem to get to that part at all."

Actually, there is also a different meme.
Some say: the money does not need to be printed. It already exists: It is IN THE COLLATERAL ACCOUNTS.

They will give you huge an imaginary numbers for how much money is already in the accounts. A favorite one is the St Germaine Trust, but there are others.

Mr Sino, of SwissIndo used this ploy.
Look at the huge number he and his followers were talking about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emHsHtqjTek

$1.03 followed by 18 zeros: One thousand thirty quadrillion.

Divide that number by 7 billion, and you get $147.1 Million per person.

The problem is: the money is not there. It is impossible.

Sure, you can write an IOU for any amount you like. But unless the IOU is backed by real tangible wealth, the IOU will not be paid.

[davids]

I say the same thing to survivalists who are stashing gold in the expectation of what, I suspect, is the Apocalypse for which they not-so-subtlely hope. If you are sitting there in your hilltop bunker, with your stash of gold, and you need something from me -- say, one of my axes, the cost of my axe will not be what it would cost in FRNs today. It will be on the order of one or more ounces of your carefully-hoarded gold.

Ok, it is not my intent to defend OPPT-ites, sovruns, or even survivalists but this doesn't seem like much of a point to me.

First, survivalists are usually storing survival equipment, and not just gold to the exclusion of survival equipment (especially but not limited to axes).

Second, assuming a survivalist has gold, and needs to use it in exchange for a commodity - isnt that what you think they are saving that gold for in the first place? I mean, isn't that the whole idea, that if everything collapses, they would have a hard asset to use in trade?

Third, what does this have to do with the concept that flooding the streets with more dollars for everyone will result in inflation? I see a non-sequitur there, not an analogy.

[LightinDarkness]

I agree with Pottapaug's point. Which I believe is that like OPPTers, survivalists share in a mentality that fails to see how their actions are ultimately pointless.

OPPTers - and others like them who believe in prosperity programs - spend vast amounts of time writing up and sending out gibberish paperwork (see the OPPT "courtesy notices"). They fail to understand that no amount of gibberish is going to invoke the legal magic fantasy that they believe in.

Survivalists are a different breed of crazy, I grant you, but they are crazy nonetheless. They hoard gold, guns, food, and ammo in the belief that when society collapses they will have their own little fiefdom empire and they will be the rambo style king of it all. They fail to understand that: (1) the chance of society collapsing in the way they hope for is next to impossible and (2) even if (1) happens, hoarding all that stuff will do you little good because roving bands of other nutjobs will simply kill you for your precious gold (and if you think you are going to out arm the entire country, which they do, its equally delusional).

[notorial dissent]

I pretty much agree with what LiD says here, with the exception that instead of "roving bands of other nutjobs will simply kill you for your precious gold ", they will hunt you down and kill you for the food and supplies you have, the gold will be of little intrinsic value if you're starving to death.

[DailyPlanet]

"Survivalists are a different breed of crazy, I grant you, but they are crazy nonetheless. They hoard gold, guns, food, and ammo in the belief that when society collapses they will have their own little fiefdom empire and they will be the rambo style king of it all. They fail to understand that: (1) the chance of society collapsing in the way they hope for is next to impossible and (2) even if (1) happens, hoarding all that stuff will do you little good because roving bands of other nutjobs will simply kill you for your precious gold (and if you think you are going to out arm the entire country, which they do, its equally delusional)."

I disagree... partly.
I don't think they are "hoping" to see society collapse.
But they have read history, and found that many, if not all, societies have collapsed eventually in the past. (The Roman Empire being one of the biggest prior examples.) They believe, with much justification, that we are on the pathway towards another grand collapse. If you do not see that, I think you have failed to do the research, or may be delusional yourself.

All their precautions do is: Improve the chances of survival, they do not guarantee it.

I would be interested to know of what you think of the ideas of Mat Stein, and MIT graduate, who has spent years writing what seem to be some rather helpful survival manuals.

VIDEO: Mat Stein "When Tech Fails" on Mike Harris Show
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN4LnkP-wQ4

[LightinDarkness]

I don't mean to derail so this will be my last post on the survivalist thing -

My parents are survivalists, and so are many of their friends. I can say with confidence every single one of them wants society to collapse. Why would people want such a thing? Because they don't really understand what life would be like and they take some sort of perverse enjoyment out of being "right" and finally showing everyone that they aren't crazy.

Here is why survivalist mindset is irrational and delusional. Every event has a chance of happening. Everything. There is a chance - infinitely small - that tomorrow an asteroid hits the earth and we will all die in a flaming ball of fire. The chance that society as we know it will collapse and we will be reduced to roving bands of looters is also extremely small, although I grant you not as small as the chance of a mass extinction event. Rational people prepare for these events based on the chance that they will happen. I put my seat belt on because the chance of a car accident while low is within the realm of possibility. I buy renters insurance because the chance of someone robbing me is pretty low given my area but, it could happen, so its worth the cost. I do not hoard gold, ammo, and bullets because the chance of society collapsing is so low it makes no sense to prepare for anything.

We learn this in probability 101 in high school. The expected return on a decision is the chance that it will happen multiplied by the cost. Lets say, to be generous, the chance of society collapsing in my lifetime is 0.01%. That is an incredibly high chance, by the way, as the actual probability is somewhere in the realm of 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000001%. The cost it would take to be "prepped" for this event is - again to be generous by being cheap - in the neighborhood of $20,000 for my guns, ammo, gold bars, food, bug out bags, etc. The expected return on my investment is therefore $200. You would have to be insane to make that decision. Which is what survivalists are - insane.

I would conclude with nothing there is a difference between crazy survivalists and prepping for a natural disaster that is likely to occur in your area. People in the southeast United States should be prepared for hurricanes. People in California should be prepared for earthquakes. People in North Dakota should be prepared for blizzards. These are events which turn into natural disasters with some frequency, and they occur routinely in these parts of the country. Preparing for such an invent is sane and rational. Preparing for The End of The World As We Know It is nuts.

[davids]

I agree with Pottapaug's point. Which I believe is that like OPPTers, survivalists share in a mentality that fails to see how their actions are ultimately pointless.

OPPTers - and others like them who believe in prosperity programs - spend vast amounts of time writing up and sending out gibberish paperwork (see the OPPT "courtesy notices"). They fail to understand that no amount of gibberish is going to invoke the legal magic fantasy that they believe in.

Survivalists are a different breed of crazy, I grant you, but they are crazy nonetheless. They hoard gold, guns, food, and ammo in the belief that when society collapses they will have their own little fiefdom empire and they will be the rambo style king of it all. They fail to understand that: (1) the chance of society collapsing in the way they hope for is next to impossible and (2) even if (1) happens, hoarding all that stuff will do you little good because roving bands of other nutjobs will simply kill you for your precious gold (and if you think you are going to out arm the entire country, which they do, its equally delusional).

Fair enough, but survivalists, which I know a few, aren't really nuts. And to be a survivalist one doesn't have to be ignorant of the basic concept of inflation. In fact, most of the ones I know of are fans of asset-backed currency, to limit inflation, or of holding gold or silver, for the very reason that it is a hedge against inflation. So, again, even if you agree that "survivalists are big weirdos" that doesn't make Pottapaug's point any kind of analogy. No offense to Pottapaug.

I'll add that being weird isn't yet a crime. One poster in this thread commented that his parents are survivalists and then even engaged in the piling on of the forum groupthink, saying that survivalists want society to collapse. I don't think so. They may think it will collapse, they may want to prepare for it, but I doubt that they want it to happen.

And to those who say it couldn't happen, how close did we get in 2007-2008? If people really knew what was going on in those weekend-long meetings in which bailouts, government brokered bank purchases, etc. were happening, where Shearson Lehman failed, etc., what would have happened? It could have turned out much different. And this is despite the MYTH of the supremely knowledgeable guys running our investment banks and all the supposed safeguards against a collapse. As one poster pointed out, societies have collapsed before.

And just to be clear, there is no OPPT thought in this post; those guys are nuts, IMHO. But they aren't survivalists and it isn't a fair comparison/analogy/generalization. Other than the fact that many people who post here dislike both groups.

[DailyPlanet]

"I can say with confidence every single one of them wants society to collapse. Why would people want such a thing? Because they don't really understand what life would be like..."

Those are the people that YOU know, possibly.
That's why I included the Mat Stein video.
I get no sense at all from him that he wants a collapse. He has thought long and hard about what is coming, and what we will need to survive.

Yes. I agree with Mat, that our complex society is highly vulnerable to many vectors of collapse. A solar flare strong enough to take out the electric grid, does look inevitable. And Mat suggests we prepare by having more transformers, and being able to live from days, weeks, or months without electricity. If you think he is crazy, I would think you have not read (or heard) his explanations.

I certainly do not dislike people who think ahead and take precautions.

The OPPT cult members are different. They AVOID reality, live in a dream, and fail on the basic task of researching the ideas they are espousing. I can see no similarity between Heather and her fantacists and Mat Stein, and his grim and well-researched realism.

[davids]

Anyway, I just wanted to emphasize that the point wasn't to criticize Pottapaug, whose posts I like, or anyone else. It is just that equating survivalists or physical metals purchasers with OPPT types is bad thinking, and that's what we're all against here, right? Right. Okay, good. Now back to your regularly scheduled debunking!

[DailyPlanet]

Morons on the Move

Not sure what to do? Quit your job, and become a New Age "inspiration guru"

The 'Even In Doubt' Project INDIEGOGO VIDEO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1aQGs0c_kA

Its like Hopegirl without the QEG scam

There's nothing new here, and this is like a pale, brain-drained version of the past:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbVMZGzBWuc

At least Tim O. had some erstatz spirituality to go with the slacker lifestyle

[KickahaOta]

A belated response:

Yeah, the net result is -0- !!! If everyone has $10 billion dollars then it is the same as having $1, you can't buy anything more with it than before because the economy would still be in the same place.

This is actually wrong, in an important way -- though it's a way that the OPPTers haven't thought through either, of course.

If someone suddenly walked up to each person on the planet and handed them $10B US-- and assuming that the world simultaneously converted to this one currency, so that the effect of this wasn't simply to cause that currency to implode -- the effect wouldn't be to leave everyone's wealth unchanged. The effect would be to suddenly equalize everyone's wealth, with the exception of a very few outliers like Warren Buffett (and even they would suddenly only be 'slightly better off than the neighbors'). If I had $5K in net wealth before the 'prosperity packages' and my neighbor had $500K, the difference in our wealth now might as well be zero.

To the extent that the OPPTers have thought of this at all, they would probably hold it out as a wonderful thing -- that everyone now gets to live the same rich, comfortable lifestyle. But that's because (I would suspect that) the vast majority of OPPTers live in wealthy, developed countries. And so they think that such a reset would raise them up -- because their mental benchmark for what is "average" is the other residents of their own country. But even though the OPPTer may very well be quite poor relative to others in their country, they are still almost certainly way, way above average relative to the standard of wealth of the world. Never forget that about half of the world's population lives on about $2US per day or less.

So suddenly handing everyone $10B would be an unimaginable boon for the residents of impoverished countries (at least if they could make it through the initial economic shocks), but it would be an unimaginable catastrophe for everyone -- even the poor -- in countries like the US and Canada.

[DailyPlanet]

"...it would be an unimaginable catastrophe for everyone -- even the poor --
in countries like the US and Canada."

True enough.
Once the spending from those formerly-poor countries hit the market, everything would go up and price, and American could no longer afford the things they can afford now. So they would be worse off, and eating less, and buying less luxuries than they have now.

No one would get out of bed for less than $1 million, so services would shoot up in price, and all that nice money they have would soon be depleted on the basics of life

[Gregg]

"...it would be an unimaginable catastrophe for everyone -- even the poor --
in countries like the US and Canada."

True enough.
Once the spending from those formerly-poor countries hit the market, everything would go up and price, and American could no longer afford the things they can afford now. So they would be worse off, and eating less, and buying less luxuries than they have now.

No one would get out of bed for less than $1 million, so services would shoot up in price, and all that nice money they have would soon be depleted on the basics of life

But wait! That would lead to hyperinflation, and it would take two truckloads of currency to buy a basket of groceries, which would lead to having to print new currency, and the $10,000,000 bill (Richard Nixon on the portrait, commonly called "dick bills") would be the new waling around folding cash you'd need for a bottle of Mt Dew. And that would lead to rampant speculation about...

wait for it....

the RV of the US dollar!

It's all part of the wonderful circle of crazy!

[Deep Knight]

This is why the $10 billion will be in gold instead of worthless paper! And the Law of the One states that you HAVE to accept gold in payment at its spiritual value, so even though everyone will have $10 billion, we'll all be rich with servants and such, every one of us, even the servants. The only problem is, the plan is to deliver this by regular Post to each of our front doors, and most of us don't have front steps or porches that would support the 278 tons this much gold at current prices would weigh. Once each and every one of us gets an upgrade, then the blessing can start shipping!

[AndyK]

DK is missing a critical point.

He is weighing the gold based on current prices.

It's obvious that making everyone gold-based billionaires will hyperinflate the value of gold (after all, there are only so many megatons of gold on the planet). This will result in small envelopes of gold leaf being adequate to distribute the billions.

[DailyPlanet]

"This is why the $10 billion will be in gold instead of worthless paper! And the Law of the One states that you HAVE to accept gold in payment at its spiritual value, so even though everyone will have $10 billion, we'll all be rich with servants and such..."

There's one small problem : There isn't enough Gold.

One this planet we are acknowledged to have about 5 Billion ounces, less than one ounce per person.

$10 Billion at $1,220 is 8.2 million ounces per person.

How many people would get that 8.2 million oz?
If there really is 5 Billion ounces, the answer is just 610 people. Not the whole planet.

I wonder if there are that many True believers in OPPT left?
More like 60, I would have thought