ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

[wserra]

Maybe if LAX relocated to Wisconsin.

Then it would be WAX.

[JamesVincent]

Speaking of BeverlyHillsMan,... go back and read his long-winded treatise on the virtues of Gillis and his business... this guy is actually pretty smart and he knows what he's doing, he cleverly and smoothly integrates a great little logical fallacy into his presentation by weaving into the dialogue a little "primer" on the "4 types of business". This is a clever tactic used throughout the marketing world and can be a logical fallacy when it's used to make the reader associate/transfer the truth and integrity of the basic facts presented (4 types of business) to the truth and integrity of the product/person being promoted.

A simpler example is dishwashing detergent:
A great way to get around comparing your dishwashing detergent to other detergents, but make readers/listeners think your detergent MUST be superior is to launch into a basic chemistry explanation of how the molecules in the detergent bind to the 'sticky' points of grease so that the grease can't stick to anything else and the grease gets carried harmlessly away never to bother anybody again. The fallacy is the implied, but not stated (that would be illegal), suggestion that your detergent is the only one that knows this chemical secret and therefore is superior.

We had a discussion before in a MLM thread about a cleaning product making water "wetter". Similar chemistry.

BeverylyHillsMan's story and fallacy isn't quite the same, for one, his story is much longer and more involved and is actually a great case study in how to CON people. First, he talks at length about why he should be trusted (he's rich... he says it over and over, that's a technique for making something seem believable), then he pulls out the "4 types of business fact fallacy" and cleverly weaves NASI and Gillis into it with ZERO actual verifiable facts.... I'd be willing to bet the author of "BeverlyHillsMan"'s story is none other than Joel himself... who else would take so much time and care to put something like that together?

Even though you made an incredible series of posts, and I thank you for that, I am still partial to my previous summation of whats his face's post:

blah blah blah they're awesome blah blah blah I'm awesome blah blah they won't give people anything blah blah blah you're all stupid blah blah blah I'm awesome and I'm telling you about it blah blah blah did I mention you're all stupid and sniveling little rats? blah blah

[JamesVincent]

Maybe if LAX relocated to Wisconsin.

Then it would be WAX.

[worried]

To jamesvincent: ... Yes, I have to give you credit for being MUCH more succinct... I have never seen such an eloquent use of the word 'blah'... I laughed quite a bit when I read that...

[Tednewsom]

Gentlemen, I happen to represent WaxMor (pat. pend.), a revolutionary product which will make wax waxier. Just insert WaxMor (pat. pend.) into your cigarette lighter and it will make your wax 20% more waxy in just 12 months. I absolutely guarantee it. I have known me for more than 50 years, and have always had 100% trust in myself. I can put you in touch with a dozen absolutely different satisfied alter-egos who'll vouch for me-- and the incredible amount of wax they've made with their own WaxMor (pat. pend.). Just drop me an email and I'll have them respond directly to you, through my email address.

If you use WaxMor (pat. pend.) for the full 3 years, you will earn Queen Bee status which allows you to sell WaxMor to selected friends, one at a time, of course. And for each new WaxMor (pat. pend.) device you sell, you will get a free pair of wax lips. And if you keep WaxMor (pat. pend.) in your lighter for the full seven years, I promise you-- and I never lie-- you'll have more wax in your ears than Madame Tussaude.

[MarvinGardens]

wait... so, does that IP address for BeverlyHillsMan mean that he WASN'T stuck in an airport in Madison, Wisconsin when he wrote that like he said?

Maybe if LAX relocated to Wisconsin.

So how does that work? Even if a person's email server is located in LA or anywhere, if he posts an email from a remote location you can trace that email to the remote location?

Have you busted that poster?

[webhick]

wait... so, does that IP address for BeverlyHillsMan mean that he WASN'T stuck in an airport in Madison, Wisconsin when he wrote that like he said?

Maybe if LAX relocated to Wisconsin.

So how does that work? Even if a person's email server is located in LA or anywhere, if he posts an email from a remote location you can trace that email to the remote location?

Well, we're talking about forum posts, not email. When you registered the forum logged your IP. Each time you post, the forum logs your IP along with your post. As a result, this makes it easier to catch sock puppets because two people making posts from the same IP are almost always the same person. IP's on this forum are only visible to moderators and admins.

Emails are another animal. I don't have the means to figure out a person's IP based on their email address. Now, should someone send me an email I might be able to pull their IP from the headers, but that depends mostly on the email provider.

Have you busted that poster?

I ain't exactly doing a victory dance. We have one stupid lie and a name that's neither Joel nor Ed.

[Tednewsom]

Here's a little research puzzler. A couple years ago I found a website or blog which dealt with investment possibilities, the pros and cons, apparently run by a couple of Aussies. Most of the discussions, therefore, tended to be about stuff Down Under or in the South Pacific area generally. To these unsophisticated eyes, the members of the board were as hip to the ins and outs of this universe as those on Quatloos.

The honcho of the site apparently crossed paths with and interviewed "Joel"-- only his first name was used in the original post, oddly-- who gave the website guy a long, involved pitch on how scrumptious the ATM leaseback business was, what a no-lose deal, blah blah blah. The guy's initial comment on the interview was resolutely positive: Joel was such a great guy, the return investment was appealing, you don't have to work for your money, just sit back and let it flow in.

I posted a link to this discussion and the boys over there said, "Whoa. Yeah, hey, wait a minute... this thing looks like a duck... quacks like a duck..."

I cannot find the site anywhere anymore. I would have thought even a dead blog would show up with a Google search as being cached. It may be instructive to hear the pitch from the Horse's Mouth.

[webhick]

I cannot find the site anywhere anymore. I would have thought even a dead blog would show up with a Google search as being cached. It may be instructive to hear the pitch from the Horse's Mouth.

Google's cache consists of the indexed version of a page. It's a handy backup in case a site goes down temporarily. If a site is down for longer, Google removes it from the index and subsequently dumps the cached version.

If you want to see a cached version of a dead website, your best bet is the Wayback Machine. It often contains many many versions of a given page. The catch is that you can't search it like you do the internet. You need to know a URL. Any url for the original site might turn up something useful.

[Tednewsom]

Yes... and if you don't happen to have saved a URL for four years and can't remember the name of the site... back up ten yards and punt?

[webhick]

Yes... and if you don't happen to have saved a URL for four years and can't remember the name of the site... back up ten yards and punt?

Well, if you didn't keep wiping your browser history so no one would know what kinky shit you're into, you'd be able to look it up... but NO, NO, NO you just had to go and try to cover your tracks and then come here and expect the Illuminati to tell you where you've been.

I've got news for you pal, I know where you've been and there isn't enough brain bleach in all of time and space to help me forget.

[Arthur Rubin]

Yes... and if you don't happen to have saved a URL for four years and can't remember the name of the site... back up ten yards and punt?

On a serious note; if you can remember a the URL of a page that linked to the old site, you can check the archives of that page.

[Tednewsom]

Well, gosh, guys. Of all the URLs I've memorized over the years, the thousands of websites for which I've embedded a twelve-digit alphanumeric code, that seems to be the only one which has slipped my mind. Darn the luck.

webhick.... I have enough on my plate just keeping the International Alien Conspiracy abreast of the anti-Andromedan propaganda on this site. Those Illuminati boys never carry their own weight. As for wiping my trail... heck... it's on IMDB for everybody to see.

[imnewhere]

OK first-time writer here:

I am invested and did so in the past year.

Yes I understand all of the concerns. I've read every word. We all have to make our own decisions and I do agree there are reasons to believe that it is a fraud, however, there are two things, IMO. in favor of this investment:

1. Relationships. I never make an investment unless there is a proven track record and I personally know several people that have been doing business with Joel for at least 15 years. They have never missed a check. Of course this does not constitute a guarantee.

2. Business Model. Based on all of the facts as I know them, in order to achieve a 20% return you need 13 people a day to make a withdrawal at a location that is typically open 24 hours a day. My returns have reflected about 20 people a day. Is this reasonable? Is there plenty of money to go around at $ 2.50/transaction to satisfy all involved parties? (me@20% minumum, NAS, store owners, maintenance company, etc.) Obviously my answer to that question has been yes, it seems reasonable.

There is no doubt that many people throughout time have done unsavory things and bilked many investors out of billions of dollars... and yes, I usually sign up for the adage..."If it's looks too good to be true then it most likely is"...however this investment does pass my personal snuff test so I am hoping for the best and will keep my eyes open as much as possible. That's all I can do.

[worried]

You (above poster) are not thinking clearly, you are letting your emotions decide for you. Read these:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/05/mad ... =allsearch
(there was also a pictorial on CNN recently that showed VERY famous, VERY well-respected victims like Steven Spielberg, etc.,... you can be in GOOD company and still be a dupe)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jordanmagli ... itigation/

http://bernsteinlaw.com/publications-li ... itigation/

and this one is especially scary:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/26/opini ... .html?_r=0 ... it says that even though huge banks were clearly complicit in Madoff's scheme, the only people who are paying are the individual victims who "profited" from the scam.

If you are involved in a Ponzi scheme, it's not just you who will suffer. Anyone who associates with you financially WILL EVENTUALLY be looked at. That means forget the inheritance for your kids... you want the government coming to them 20 years from now and demand that they pay up for their college education that your 'investment' paid for, etc.? THAT is what you are risking if you ONLY use your "snuff test" to decide whether to invest in something or not. If it REALLY is such a big money maker, then it's worth paying a REAL financial analyst/lawyer to give you UNBIASED advice on whether to invest in it or not. Otherwise, you're in a fantasy and risk the above consequences for yourself and your beneficiaries.

For the sake of MY family member (who is otherwise EXTREMELY intelligent and hard-working, and a self-made successful person by the way) that is hopelessly suckered in to this mess, I can only hope that ALL of you out there STOP feeding this scam so it can die as soon as possible minimizing the damage to ONLY what has been done already....

Also go back a page or so on this forum and read the part about how Gillis IS BREAKING THE LAW by selling unregistered securities... there is NO valid argument against this, I even posted a plain language summary of a pertinent US Supreme Court ruling I got from a Cornell website. It's all over the internet people, all you have to do is WANT to see the TRUTH instead of clinging to only your BELIEFS in something you really HOPE is true.

[worried]

Why are people who have already bought into Gillis' ATM 'business' posting on this forum?

Why are they even here ON this forum?

Is it because even though they've bought the con, they're still nervous because deep down they KNOW they should have paid for REAL advice instead of just "hoping for the best" as the above poster put it? .... OR.... are they here on this forum because they've been asked to get on here and write positive things to offset the negative effect of the FACTS being shown here?

Note that NOT ONE post that promotes Gillis and his scam has, or points to, any OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE to prove that it's not a scam.... OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE people... NOT anecdotes... REAL, HARD EVIDENCE in the form of REAL, official documents written by REAL lawyers, financial types, etc., that reveal whether or not it is a scam.

If you're one of the 'nervous' investors, you're not alone, and you shouldn't feel ashamed, that is, unless you continue to ignore your conscience... act on that conscience now, do the right thing: pay a REAL lawyer or SOMEBODY to look at this 'business investment' of yours and tell you what to do and DO IT. Don't listen to me, listen to a REAL UNBIASED professional that you've PAID to be on YOUR SIDE, NOT Joel's.... I'm willing to bet they'll start devising an exit strategy for you very quickly....

[Tednewsom]

OK first-time writer here:

I am invested and did so in the past year.

I have just one question. Which price did you pay for your ATM?

[JamesVincent]

OK first-time writer here:

Welcome to Quatloos.

I am invested and did so in the past year.

Sorry to hear.

Yes I understand all of the concerns. I've read every word. We all have to make our own decisions and I do agree there are reasons to believe that it is a fraud, however, there are two things, IMO. in favor of this investment:

1. Relationships. I never make an investment unless there is a proven track record and I personally know several people that have been doing business with Joel for at least 15 years. They have never missed a check. Of course this does not constitute a guarantee.

Just being in business awhile does not a legit business make. We talked about this before.

2. Business Model. Based on all of the facts as I know them, in order to achieve a 20% return you need 13 people a day to make a withdrawal at a location that is typically open 24 hours a day. My returns have reflected about 20 people a day. Is this reasonable? Is there plenty of money to go around at $ 2.50/transaction to satisfy all involved parties? (me@20% minumum, NAS, store owners, maintenance company, etc.) Obviously my answer to that question has been yes, it seems reasonable.

13 point something to be exact but I get the drift. HOWEVER, according to numbers provided by SomeYuppie that is at $4.00 per, not $2.50 per. You still get you fitty cents and someone else takes the rest. (Yes, that was intentional.)

There is no doubt that many people throughout time have done unsavory things and bilked many investors out of billions of dollars... and yes, I usually sign up for the adage..."If it's looks too good to be true then it most likely is"...however this investment does pass my personal snuff test so I am hoping for the best and will keep my eyes open as much as possible. That's all I can do.

Could make sure you don't drop anymore into it.

[Red Flag]

Christ...I tried WAXMOR and God Almighty...it works!

Thanks Tednewsom!

[worried]

If you are on this forum looking for information about Joel Gillis' Nationwide Automated Systems, Inc. ATM-Leasback 'business' ...

BEFORE you 'invest', go hire a REAL accountant to advise you on this first, if it's worth giving tens of thousands to Joel, it's worth the few hundred (or more) for real, professional legal/financial advice.

If you've ALREADY invested but are searching around because you're still nervous...go hire a REAL accountant to advise you what to do next, if it's worth giving tens of thousands to Joel, it's worth the few hundred (or more) for real, professional legal/financial advice.

Otherwise, if you just blindly hand over your money based on your 'instincts', you are part of the problem... and you WILL pay the consequences for it eventually... (or your heirs will)