ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

[worried]

This is a footnote in one of the prosecutor's rebuttals to either Joel or Ed's Sentencing Position (I can't remember which one now after reading all those docs, I just copied this particular footnote:

"The government's Summary of Source and Use of Funds by NASI in the period September 2007 though October 2014 (Exh. C) shows that NAS received approximately $355 million from investors during this time period (94% of all funds received), of which approximately $335 million was used to fund Ponzi payments and some "buy backs" ... sent to investors (approximately 88% of all of NASI's disbursements during this time period). ..."

The numbers in this footnote are interesting, and they suggest that the TOTAL size of the scam was "only" $377M+, but this doesn't agree with the 31,000 contract number very well because that number of contracts with ALL of them at $12k is $372M. I have a feeling (and I do remember reading some statements that corroborate this) that the forensic analysts who came up with the numbers were being conservative (in favor of the defendents) just to avoid criticisms. But... going with these numbers, looking at the diff between what Joel/Ed received vs. what was sent out to 'investors', over $22M was skimmed directly off the top between 2007 and 2014. This 'skim' went to Joel, Ed, Darren Wishner, Mark Soffa, Fuel Doctor, Oasis, etc.... Subtracting that number from the $125M 'loss' experienced by victims, that still leaves $100M. That money either went to winning investor/victims PRIOR to 2007 (unreachable by clawback) or was skimmed undetectably,... probably a combination of both,... either way, it's gone. But, really I think the real numbers are larger, the scam was larger, the skim was larger, these numbers are just what the prosecutor could PROVE beyond credible criticism. The number of pre-2007 'winning' investor victims (there can't be very many relatively speaking) is the big question which determines how much other 'skim' went undetected. But... unfortunately, the whole 'winner' list is put under seal... I was really looking forward to seeing that, even with names redacted... but it doesn't look like we're going to get it.... Like others have said, it's looking like it's going to cost too much to find a lot of that money so it really is gone.

[Lost Income]

I just received the letter below. Per this letter, is it likely that victims would receive one recovery check from Court Restitution abilities, and a separate check from Receiver abilities? Based on current progress and history for this kind of thing, any wild guesses for when victims may see these recovery checks?



The enclosed information is provided by the United States Department of Justice Victim Notification System (VNS). As a victim witness professional, my role is to assist you with information and services during the prosecution of this case. I am contacting you because you were identified by law enforcement as a victim during the investigation of the above criminal case.

NASI Receivership Several investors have inquired about possible recovery through a civil case filed separately from the criminal case. A Receiver, William J. Hoffman, of Trigilid, Inc., was appointed in the civil case regarding Nationwide Automated Systems, Inc. Mr. Hoffman has a website: www.nasi-receivership.com and may also be contacted by telephone (858) 242-1161, or by email: receiver@NASI-receivership.com. The U.S. Attorney’s Office and the FBI are NOT involved in this civil case, and cannot provide information as to the status nor advise on any other mater in relation to the civil case. Reports of a change of address made to our office via the Victim Notification System are for use in the criminal case only. If you are also involved in the civil case, you will also need to notify the Receiver, as the criminal and civil cases are separate. This information is not provided to the Receiver, by our office, when you report an address change on the criminal case. Notices you receive from the Victim Notification System only pertain to the criminal case.

A status hearing is scheduled before Judge S. Otero for February 1, 2016, 10:00 AM at Hearing Location for Western Division Office 2, US Courthouse, 312 North Spring Street, Los Angeles, CA 90012 for defendant(s) JOEL GILLIS, EDWARD WISHNER. The purpose of this hearing is to determine if there are issues that the Court needs to address and to schedule any necessary future court dates. The purpose of this hearing is for the Court to rule on the mater of restitution.

Defendant JOEL GILLIS was sentenced by the Court. The Court ordered the defendant to the following:

Incarceration of 10 year(s)
Followed by Supervised Release of 3 year(s)
Special Assessment of $400.00.

The court scheduled a hearing on February 1, 2016 at 10AM regarding the matter of restitution.

Defendant EDWARD WISHNER was sentenced by the Court. The Court ordered the defendant to the following:

Incarceration of 9 year(s)
Followed by Supervised Release of 3 year(s)
Special Assessment of $400.00.

The court scheduled a hearing on February 1, 2016 at 10AM regarding the matter of restitution.

[notorial dissent]

So it is now looking like the restitution issues will be dealt with in a separate hearing, which could prove quite interesting. That may be as an effort to allow the Receiver more time to get a handle on the situation, but should be a positive event I would think.

[Lost Income]

I agree, seems like this scenario has more positive than negative.

[worried]

I read the 'orientation' handbook for the federal prison at Lompoc where I figure Ed and Joel will be staying (if you look at the wikipedia page for the prison at Lompoc, there is a fellow ponzi-scammer still serving a 20-year sentence there for a much smaller scam). The only part of that handbook I found comforting was the part where all inmates are REQUIRED to work on paying any restitution.... but, the rest of it was very disappointing to me. Ed and Joel will surely get out early, there are several incentivizing ways to trim days off a sentence (to the tune of a couple of months per year or more). It's a low-security 'prison' with dormitory living quarters... dormitory!... They can buy all kinds of niceties at the commissary with money they earn or get sent to them, they can, and are encouraged to be involved in recreational activities of all sorts... Lompoc is clearly not "punishment", it's "rehabilitation"... Joel and Ed don't need rehab... disappointing...

[Tednewsom]

What's the chance of a class action suit against the pair of 'em -- and the company, and assorted John Does and John Doe companies?

It was clearly and admittedly a criminal enterprise since they pleaded guilty. Surely that ought to be a legal head start, a stipulation, because you don't have to prove it, just point that out in the suit. And there's probably a dozen or two or three deep-pocket targets, individual and corporate, which benefitted directly from moneys swindled. Offhand, as callous as it sounds-- that nice guy pal of Wishner's who was temporarily in a financial jam, who received an instant check for $10,000. Fuel Doctor, on both a company and partner level. The dressing room trailer outfit. Old lady Gillis. All the cute little Gillises. How much did Grampa skim from the proceeds to establish nest eggs for the family? Or buy them a home for a wedding present? How much stolen money was given to charities to bolster the crooks' peer esteem?

The counter-argument might be "But this was from their own personal funds!" OK, fine, but every dime they made was profit from an illegal enterprise.

[Tednewsom]

Looks like California law provides a good place to start

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displ ... =186-186.8

[Lost Income]

All this continues to reinforce my point about lots of money having gone somewhere for 19years. In the end the crooks families will win by magically having enough money to continue their life style with Joel & Ed in jail, while the victims get back peanuts.

[Hyrion]

All this continues to reinforce my point about lots of money having gone somewhere for 19years

Lots of money gone somewhere, agreed.

In the end the crooks families will win by magically having enough money to continue their life style with Joel & Ed in jail

Perhaps - but there's also the possibility the money has mostly been well and truly spent/wasted and the crooks families won't have the same life style they might be accustomed to.

There's not really any sense being bitter about something that hasn't happened yet, if it ever does - it's not good for ones health and even more pointless if it's based on a thought that's mistaken.

Would you have valid reason to be upset in the event the crooks families do end up living an oppulent lifestyle because the receiver couldn't link the money? Absolutely - that's a reasonable response.

But unless that's actually proven, unless it actually happens, any thoughts dwelling on that are - at this point - only a possibility. And it'd be a real pity if your health went into serious decline due to the stress levels you're putting yourself through which may only be based on shadows and illusions because of something that might not even happen.

[Lost Income]

Thanks. I'm not fretting over this, just expecting an outcome which is most likely. Not taking the crooks directly from the court room to jail after sentencing so they further enjoy themselves on the streets, begins the disappointment.

[Judge Roy Bean]

What's the chance of a class action suit against the pair of 'em -- and the company, and assorted John Does and John Doe companies?

About zero.

[worried]

Today is the day for Joel and Ed. They become long-term guests of the federal prison system..... where they belong....

I hope their families visit them every week and relate to them how their own lives have turned to crap and that they are realizing just how badly they were betrayed and victimized themselves...

I take some pleasure in knowing Joel and Ed will be reading their orientation handbook pretty soon. Even though their prison experience won't be as movie-hellish as I had hoped, it does help to drive home the reality that they're going to deal with on a daily basis, that they will be forced to at least SAY they realize what scumbags they were and start on paying restitution.

[webhick]

The BOP's Inmate Locator shows both Ed & Joel as "Not in BOP Custody." That doesn't mean that they didn't turn themselves in, just that it might take a day or two to show up in the system.

Ed's Registration Number is 68555-112
Joel's Registration Number is 68556-112

[MarvinGardens]

Is there any information about whether or not the receiver is pursuing recovery from the persons who acted as commissioned referrers for the scheme?

[The Observer]

Interesting, they separated the dynamic duo. Gillis ended up north of his residence in Lompoc. Wishner ended up in Terminal Island which is smack dab in the middle of LA/Long Beach Harbors.

[Tednewsom]

Interesting, they separated the dynamic duo. Gillis ended up north of his residence in Lompoc. Wishner ended up in Terminal Island which is smack dab in the middle of LA/Long Beach Harbors.

Lompoc is quite a hike from where Gillis lived, like wa-a-a-a-y north. Terminal Island is probably closer to either of their homes geographically... but not known for its country club atmosphere. Not at all.

[worried]

Any news about the restitution hearing (as if it really matters)?

I just want to hear that they're getting more reminders of how disgusting they are...

[Tednewsom]

At least a few more of the net winners have contracted to pay off their ill-gotten gains, some in the six figures.

[The Observer]

At least a few more of the net winners have contracted to pay off their ill-gotten gains, some in the six figures.

Details? Links? Cites?

[Tednewsom]

A regular 2nd tier salesperson, several years' association with the outfit; Los Angeles; no links, just inside info.