No property taxes in the USA prior to the 1930s?

[Gregg]

Did I mention I REALLY got into my Western Civ class?

Going overseas to college (LSE) was a big advantage, not much in a practical way, but I ROCK at trivia!

[ASITStands]

Did I mention I REALLY got into my Western Civ class?

Going overseas to college (LSE) was a big advantage, not much in a practical way, but I ROCK at trivia!

Yes, you did! And, some of us like that sort of trivia though it may not be on topic.

[Famspear]

gregg wrote:

Jeffery Plantagenet, wife of the Empress Matilda, whose son was Henry II and grandfather was William the Conquerer. Jeffrey wore a sprig of Planta Ginista (I know that's spelled wrong, but you get the gist) in his hat as an ornament.
Upon the death of Henry I, Matilda had the more legitimate claim to the styles King (Queen) of England, Duchess of Normandy. Jeffrey, who was the Count of Anjuo (hence the name "Angevins" for the dynasty) married Matilda. Matilda's brother, Steven, siezed the throne and Matilda waged a half war to recover it, unsuccessfully. Jeffrey did conquer Normandy and after his death his son Henry went to England to renew the fighting with Steven, eventually a deal was struck whereupon Steven was allowed to die on the throne if he would name Henry his heir. Henry, and his wife Eleanor of Aquataine, accended the throne of England in 1154. Upon his accension, Henry became the most powerful monarch since the breakup of the Roman Empire being King of England, Duke of Normandy, Duke of Aquataine, Count of Anjou and Earl of Brittany, a realm that extended from Scotland to the the northern border of Spain.

Just for the record I did that from memory, not from google etc....and the movie Becket with Peter O'Toole and Richard Burton was one of my all time favorites which led me to do a little reading on the people involved.

Some of us may remember the film The Lion in Winter with Peter O'Toole as Henry II, Katharine Hepburn as Eleanor. I think Richard the Lionhearted was played by Anthony Hopkins. I forget who played the sons Geoffrey and John. The story takes place in the Plantagenet castle at Chinon, France. Some of my French ancestors came from a village near Chinon. Some years ago my wife and I had the pleasure of visiting Chinon and walking through the castle, which has been largely reconstructed. This also happens to be the castle where Joan of Arc recognized Charles the Dauphin in the year 1429. Chinon is an absolutely delightful little town, with stone plaques on the walls of the buildings lining the streets, with inscriptions like "Jeanne d'Arc venant de Vaucouleurs entra dans Chinon le 6 mars 1429 par la porte de Verdun qui s'élèvaient ici" ("Joan of Arc, coming from Vaucouleurs, entered Chinon March 6, 1429, by the Verdun Gate, which used to open - literally, 'used to raise itself' - here").

Here's a web page with a picture of the town.

http://www.37-online.net/gb/castles/chinon_gb.html

[Prof]

Returning to the thread for a moment, I do not think anyone ever posted a response showing that real property taxes were around for a long time before 1930:

See, for example, this case:

Rouse v. State,
54 S.W. 32, Tex.Civ.App., November 22, 1899

I did not bother to check on the original enactment date of the ad valorem real estate tax provisions of the state statues and the relevant Texas constitutional provisions.

And, for what its worth, my limited research indicates that the apportionment provisions of the Constitution were designed to prevent the use, by the federal government, of property taxes on real estate to the detriment of the slave/agricultural states, where wealth was in real estate as opposed to good, equipment (factories), etc. At least some correspondence from the NC delegation, which I found in quoted in my own library, would indicate as much.

[notorial dissent]

Or, they could have just wandered in to their local county tax assessor’s office and asked how far back their tax records go, territory or statehood being the answer, and so much for a really silly statement from fantasy land. Except it would all imply doing some actual research and then believing something other than what they got off the internet or from the guru du jour.

[Famspear]

Or, they could have simply re-read the Supreme Court cases they like to misquote and misinterpret, like Springer (1881) and Pollock (1895), which refer to property taxes as having existed in the United States long before the 1930s.

In Springer v. United States, 102 U.S. 586 (1881), there are even references to what appear to be NATIONAL property taxes: e.g., the Act of July 14, 1798, ch. 75, 1 Stat. 53 (tax on "real estate" and "capitation tax on slaves"). Property taxes apparently were also imposed by federal statutes in 1813, in 1815, and in other years, per the Springer opinion.

By the way, I confess that I am massively ignorant about the details of the property taxes reportedly imposed by these statutes. Anybody know anything about these?

[ASITStands]

In Pollock I there's a reference to taxes on incomes in certain colonies prior to the constitution and union, but of course, no one wants to believe taxes on incomes existed.

They were, of course, familiar with the modes of taxation pursued in the several states. From the report of Oliver Wolcott, when secretary of the treasury, on direct taxes, to the house of representatives, December 14, 1796, - his most important state paper (Am. St. P. 1 Finance, 431), - and the various state laws then existing, it appears that prior to the adoption of the constitution nearly all the states imposed a poll tax, taxes on land, on cattle of all kinds, and various kinds of personal property, and that, in addition, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Delaware, New Jersey, Virginia, and South Carolina assessed their citizens upon their profits from professions, trades, and employments.

As 'Famspear' says, emphasis added.

Meanwhile, does anyone have any comments on this video?

[LPC]

Returning to the thread for a moment, I do not think anyone ever posted a response showing that real property taxes were around for a long time before 1930:

From the first Pollock decision (157 U.S. 429):

From the report of Oliver Wolcott, when Secretary of the Treasury, on direct taxes, to the House of Representatives, December 14, 1796, his most important state paper, (Am.State Papers, 1 Finance 431) and the various state laws then existing, it appears that, prior to the adoption of the Constitution, nearly all the States imposed a poll tax, taxes on land, on cattle of all kinds, and various kinds of personal property, and that, in addition, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Delaware, New Jersey, Virginia, and South Carolina assessed their citizens upon their profits from professions, trades, and employments.

The full text of the report can be found through the Library of Congress.

[Quixote]

As can the text of the 1798 act. As can be seen, the tax is apportioned among the states, but not, contrary to TP "research", imposed on the states or collected by the states.

[Cpt Banjo]

Meanwhile, does anyone have any comments on this video?

These deadbeats are pretty disgusting, but it was unclear from the story how many of these people's cases had already gone through the process and how many were still litigating the validity of their deficiencies. For those with a final determination against them, I'd publish their names and photos in the paper and embarrass the hell out of them. I'd also hire private collection firms to file collection actions (the state and city obvously don't have enough manpower).

[Evil Squirrel Overlord]

There it is. They taxed cattle back then. I am not a cow; therefore I am not required to pay taxes nor taxes on my cows.

As for the Magna Carta, If you read it correctly there is a wonderful recipie for maidenhead pudding.

[webhick]

There it is. They taxed cattle back then. I am not a cow; therefore I am not required to pay taxes nor taxes on my cows.

As for the Magna Carta, If you read it correctly there is a wonderful recipie for maidenhead pudding.

What if you marry a cow? Do you have to file separately from your spouse in order to avoid the cattle tax? And what about the kids? They're half-cow...are they taxed on their cow half or does the human half exempt them from being taxed altogether? Can you claim them as dependents?

[Imalawman]

There it is. They taxed cattle back then. I am not a cow; therefore I am not required to pay taxes nor taxes on my cows.

As for the Magna Carta, If you read it correctly there is a wonderful recipie for maidenhead pudding.

What if you marry a cow? Do you have to file separately from your spouse in order to avoid the cattle tax? And what about the kids? They're half-cow...are they taxed on their cow half or does the human half exempt them from being taxed altogether? Can you claim them as dependents?

I believe that under the tax code in place at the time, when a person married a cow, they were simply executed. Took care of all the tax complications.

[The Observer]

What if you marry a cow? Do you have to file separately from your spouse in order to avoid the cattle tax? And what about the kids? They're half-cow...are they taxed on their cow half or does the human half exempt them from being taxed altogether? Can you claim them as dependents?

I believe that under the tax code in place at the time, when a person married a cow, they were simply executed. Took care of all the tax complications.

This sounds like a case for...Theodoric of York, Medieval Judge!