New Articles February, 2013

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wserra
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Re: New Articles February, 2013

Post by wserra »

gatsby wrote:I found an article related to "American Spirit Arms owner Joe Sirochman." Is that it?
Not exactly. I don't remember the idiot details, and am not going to take the time to look them up because they're, well, idiotic. Essentially, there are some TPs who endow a piece of IRS bookkeeping called an "Individual Master File" ("IMF") with significance well beyond anything it really carries. They will "decode" it for you - for, of course, a substantial fee. They claim something to the effect that the IMF contains certain codes that mean you don't have to pay taxes (you knew that was coming, right?). Among those codes, they tell you, are those that indicate that you reside in the USVI (even if you don't) and that you are a federally-licensed gun dealer (even if you aren't).

'Course, since The Observer both resides in the Virgin Islands and is a gunsmith, he has to pay double taxes.

Bwahahaha.
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Re: New Articles February, 2013

Post by gatsby »

So, in response to last fall's chaos, moderators are a bit trigger-happy on the delete button.

BTW, I don't recall that "several members" objected to the Tim Turner post on religious-mockery grounds. I can't say exactly, of course, because the posts were deleted, but I only remember one person being offended. At least two people came to my defense.

In any case, my motivation is purely entertainment. And I discovered it's fairly expensive, as PACER charged me about $40 for the stuff I downloaded and posted here. When I do something for entertainment, I don't need the hassle of trying to figure out why posts were deleted. This is the second time it has happened in the past month.

For those following RuSA and Tim Turner, there is a thread at The Fogbow, which is more entertainment oriented:

http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopi ... 6&start=25
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Re: New Articles February, 2013

Post by The Observer »

gatsby wrote:So, in response to last fall's chaos, moderators are a bit trigger-happy on the delete button.
No, you have that wrong. In response to last's fall chaos, the moderators are enforcing the new rules where topics will not be allowed to devolve into discussions about politics and religion.
gatsby wrote:BTW, I don't recall that "several members" objected to the Tim Turner post on religious-mockery grounds. I can't say exactly, of course, because the posts were deleted, but I only remember one person being offended. At least two people came to my defense.
Whether it was one, two or "several", the point was that the thread was going downhill because it veered off into religion. At the point, the rule against religious discussions was being violated and the admins/moderators addressed the issue properly.
gatsby wrote:In any case, my motivation is purely entertainment. And I discovered it's fairly expensive, as PACER charged me about $40 for the stuff I downloaded and posted here. When I do something for entertainment, I don't need the hassle of trying to figure out why posts were deleted. This is the second time it has happened in the past month.
Regardless of your motivation, and regardless of how much it costs you (for which there is no requirement here at this site that you have to spend money in order to post), the rules are the rules. If you find that to be a "hassle" then I would suggest that you consider the phrasing of your posts to avoid political or religious-based comments. That way you won't have to worry about trying to figure out why your post was deleted. If your post is politically and religiously neutral, the moderators and administrators won't be removing it just because the next person tries to take the thread down that road.
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webhick
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Re: New Articles February, 2013

Post by webhick »

gatsby wrote:And I discovered it's fairly expensive, as PACER charged me about $40 for the stuff I downloaded and posted here.
None of the posts I deleted from the Tim Turner thread contained links to any documents. And the two posts of yours that Obs deleted from this thread didn't contain any links to any documents. So, it seems that your $40 investment is still intact. I hope you're not implying that your contributions here exempt you from the rules.

Most people are not generally having a problem following the rules. We expect people to slip up here and there and we're trying to take care of it before it gets out of hand. We're not holding it against anyone new. There are a few long-term members who are beginning to make a habit of slipping up and the mods will be stepping into the lounge soon to discuss what to do about that.

After you were criticized for your smiley placement in the Tim Turner post, you threatened to leave. If that NRA comment stood, you would have been attacked for it and likely would have threatened to leave again. Kudos to those who found it politically offensive and turned the other cheek until we dealt with it rather than go on the attack.

If you would prefer to contribute to a forum where you can post your political and religious opinions but end up in the middle of a war to defend those beliefs, then there are other forums which encourage that behavior. If you want to contribute meaningfully, like you have been, you are more than welcome to stay.
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Re: New Articles February, 2013

Post by gatsby »

The Observer wrote:
gatsby wrote:BTW, I don't recall that "several members" objected to the Tim Turner post on religious-mockery grounds. I can't say exactly, of course, because the posts were deleted, but I only remember one person being offended. At least two people came to my defense.
Whether it was one, two or "several", the point was that the thread was going downhill because it veered off into religion. At the point, the rule against religious discussions was being violated and the admins/moderators addressed the issue properly.
It "veered off into religion" only because one person said they were offended by it. Under that kind of policy, you can kill any discussion about sovcit use of religion by one person saying they are offended by the placement of a smiley -- which is what happened here -- or even how a sovcit's remarks are quoted in a post. The same is true for posts that refer to someone else's political remarks.
The Observer wrote:Regardless of your motivation, and regardless of how much it costs you (for which there is no requirement here at this site that you have to spend money in order to post), the rules are the rules. If you find that to be a "hassle" then I would suggest that you consider the phrasing of your posts to avoid political or religious-based comments. That way you won't have to worry about trying to figure out why your post was deleted. If your post is politically and religiously neutral, the moderators and administrators won't be removing it just because the next person tries to take the thread down that road.
I suspect you know what I was saying here re my "motivation. I already spend time since the first deletion in pondering the "phrasing of" my posts to consider whether this board's mutaween will take it down because one person found it offensive.

What's political and what's not? If I had compared Pratt's gun group to RuSA or the Michigan Militia instead of the NRA, would it have been deleted? Similar comparisons between different degrees of radicalism are regularly made in the Tim Turner and RuSA threads. Is this political: "Tim Turner makes Timothy McVeigh look sane"? What if a militia member registers here and then argues that "McVeigh was a true American patriot" and professes offense?

At a minimum, moderators should delete the offending content, but keep the comment "shell" in place with a specific comment on why the content was deleted. For instance: "Comment included political remark comparing one gun group to another."
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Re: New Articles February, 2013

Post by gatsby »

webhick wrote:None of the posts I deleted from the Tim Turner thread contained links to any documents. And the two posts of yours that Obs deleted from this thread didn't contain any links to any documents. So, it seems that your $40 investment is still intact. I hope you're not implying that your contributions here exempt you from the rules.
Both of you jumped on that sentence; it's easy pickings. It was clear I was saying that I'm posting for my own entertainment, which I discovered also has a personal price tag; if I were posting in a career capacity, I would expected such parsing of my posts. My bad.
webhick wrote:After you were criticized for your smiley placement in the Tim Turner post, you threatened to leave.
I believe I wrote, "I won't post here anymore." I decided to continue posting about 10 days later because of very supportive comments, now deleted, from folks like "LightinDarkness" and others.
webhick wrote:Kudos to those who found it politically offensive and turned the other cheek until we dealt with it rather than go on the attack.
"Go on the attack" -- no pun intended, I'm sure -- over a reference to an industry-lobbying group? Maybe I should get into an industry where so many non-employees do my PR work for me!
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Re: New Articles February, 2013

Post by JamesVincent »

Gatsby, your posts have been, for the most part, entertaining. Some of the things you have posted re:Tim Turner and others have been informative and insightful for those of us who don't have the time or resources to see things for ourselves. And while you may feel you are being picked on, it is much better that some of your posts were deleted. Some of the slopes you have tried treading on you do not want to go down, especially not in the political climate we are in now. Even before I left back in last what, September?, there were posts that were getting incredibly far from good taste. And the atmosphere is as charged now as it has ever been. That is why the rules are there, to keep it away from Quatloos. I can completely understand your frustration, since I had a whole thread deleted and locked because of someone else's political comment. However, those are the rules now and the moderators are only enforcing them the best way they can. By the way, I am one of the ones who "turned the other cheek and waited for the mods to deal with it" So, yes, things can upset people, whether you think so or not.
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Re: New Articles February, 2013

Post by The Observer »

gatsby wrote:It "veered off into religion" only because one person said they were offended by it. Under that kind of policy, you can kill any discussion about sovcit use of religion by one person saying they are offended by the placement of a smiley -- which is what happened here -- or even how a sovcit's remarks are quoted in a post. The same is true for posts that refer to someone else's political remarks.
Therefore it appears you understand the rules then. If the conversation ends up becoming about politics and religion, it is not going to survive. It does not matter how one intends their comments to be taken, if the thread devolves into a discussion about politics and religions instead of scams and scammers, then the admins/moderators are going to step in.
I suspect you know what I was saying here re my "motivation.'
I don't know what you suspect. All I am going by is your statement is that you engage and post here primarily for your entertainment value. That is not a reason to allow a thread to result in a controversial political or religious discussion.
I already spend time since the first deletion in pondering the "phrasing of" my posts to consider whether this board's mutaween will take it down because one person found it offensive.
We don't have mutaweens here. But again, this is the type of statement that starts creating dissension and controversy and can lead a thread downhill. Should a devout Muslim read your post, they are going to immediately see your comparison as being offensive and will want to respond to debate your comparison. This is exactly the controversy that we wish to avoid.
If you disagree, then perhaps this is not a site at which you should participate.
What's political and what's not? If I had compared Pratt's gun group to RuSA or the Michigan Militia instead of the NRA, would it have been deleted?
It might have, it might have not. Depends on the sort of reaction we start seeing, especially from our regular posters. Depends on how you phrased your comparison. In fact, it depends on a lot of things. So many things that I actually take it on a case by case basis. And if I am not sure, I get the admins involved.
Similar comparisons between different degrees of radicalism are regularly made in the Tim Turner and RuSA threads. Is this political: "Tim Turner makes Timothy McVeigh look sane"? What if a militia member registers here and then argues that "McVeigh was a true American patriot" and professes offense?
If a militia member logs in here and wants to argue about the patriotism of McVeigh, then their posts are going to get hammered. The purpose of Quatloos is to talk about scammers, not the patriotism of a militia member. If the original post is judged to have generated the controversy then it will get hammered as well. On the other hand, if the original post had said nothing about McVeigh and the succeeding posts tried to inject McVeigh into the thread, then the original post is not going to get deleted. So in my sincere opinion, posters should choose how to express themselves thoughtfully, and not just throw out responses that are going to generate controversy.
At a minimum, moderators should delete the offending content, but keep the comment "shell" in place with a specific comment on why the content was deleted. For instance: "Comment included political remark comparing one gun group to another.
And as I pointed out above, that is my intent when I have to intervene. But if the original post is tending to be sticking a thumb in people' eyes, I will be deleting it.
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Re: New Articles February, 2013

Post by The Observer »

wserra wrote:'Course, since The Observer both resides in the Virgin Islands and is a gunsmith, he has to pay double taxes.

Bwahahaha.
But you are forgetting that I get to oppress the masses twice as much as you do.
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Re: New Articles February, 2013

Post by grixit »

gatsby wrote:
What's political and what's not? If I had compared Pratt's gun group to RuSA or the Michigan Militia instead of the NRA, would it have been deleted? Similar comparisons between different degrees of radicalism are regularly made in the Tim Turner and RuSA threads. Is this political: "Tim Turner makes Timothy McVeigh look sane"? What if a militia member registers here and then argues that "McVeigh was a true American patriot" and professes offense?
McVeigh was actually convicted. There is no question that he was a mass nurderer. But in fact, if someone wanted to claim that his *political position* was valid, without defending his crime, i think they'd be ok. Likewise, however outrageous someone might find statements by individual members of the NRA, as an organization, it is merely political, and therefor, by the rules of this forum, it may not be lumped in with the militia groups who have moved from politics to officially promoting or participating in deadly conspiracies/
gatsby wrote: At a minimum, moderators should delete the offending content, but keep the comment "shell" in place with a specific comment on why the content was deleted. For instance: "Comment included political remark comparing one gun group to another."
No, because that invites meta argument. It would probnably be good to give their reasons in a private msg, though.
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