Are social security cards mandatory?

[Pottapaug1938]

PD would be much happier on Saving to Suitors or some such site. For one thing, his legal fantasies will not be challenged; and for another, he can brag (as I'm sure he intended to do all along) about how he posed may questions on Quatloos which the big ol' meanies here couldn't or wouldn't answer.

Confirmation bias does no theory any good, but thanks.

True; but neither does the fact that you have not posted ONE hypothesis on this site which has held up under scrutiny.

[Patriotdiscussions]

Explains itself really



(1) Attestation after examination of documentation
(A) In general
The person or entity must attest, under penalty of perjury and on a form designated or established by the Attorney General by regulation, that it has verified that the individual is not an unauthorized alien by examining—
(i) a document described in subparagraph (B), or
(ii) a document described in subparagraph (C) and a document described in subparagraph (D).
Such attestation may be manifested by either a hand-written or an electronic signature. A person or entity has complied with the requirement of this paragraph with respect to examination of a document if the document reasonably appears on its face to be genuine. If an individual provides a document or combination of documents that reasonably appears on its face to be genuine and that is sufficient to meet the requirements of the first sentence of this paragraph, nothing in this paragraph shall be construed as requiring the person or entity to solicit the production of any other document or as requiring the individual to produce such another document.

Okay, so you've confirmed that you can look things up, and I'm pretty much sure that everyone here agrees that it explains itself, however, I doubt that anyone else here interprets it the way you do. Why don't you explain what you think it means and how it doesn't require a form to be completed for a US citizen?

It explains what it means, and how does it not require a form for a us citizen?

1. the big one is, it does not say, us citizens MUST fill out this form.
2. it is under the section dealing with aliens.
3. the authority for the law specifically states ALIENS
4. the only penalties are for ALIENS
even the definitions of common words such as "hire" are again DEALING WITH ALIENS.



Ok, now your turn.

Show where the law states us citizens must fill out form i9 or be subject to penalties.

[Patriotdiscussions]

PD would be much happier on Saving to Suitors or some such site. For one thing, his legal fantasies will not be challenged; and for another, he can brag (as I'm sure he intended to do all along) about how he posed may questions on Quatloos which the big ol' meanies here couldn't or wouldn't answer.

Confirmation bias does no theory any good, but thanks.

True; but neither does the fact that you have not posted ONE hypothesis on this site which has held up under scrutiny.

well to be honest I did not search the whole site when I posted my threads, perhaps that would of been a better tactic for me.

[Pottapaug1938]

Ok, now your turn.

Show where the law states us citizens must fill out form i9 or be subject to penalties.

8 USC 1324a:

(2) Individual attestation of employment authorization
The individual must attest, under penalty of perjury on the form designated or established for purposes of paragraph (1), that the individual is a citizen or national of the United States, an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence, or an alien who is authorized under this chapter or by the Attorney General to be hired, recruited, or referred for such employment. Such attestation may be manifested by either a hand-written or an electronic signature.

[Patriotdiscussions]

Ok, now your turn.

Show where the law states us citizens must fill out form i9 or be subject to penalties.

8 USC 1324a:

(2) Individual attestation of employment authorization
The individual must attest, under penalty of perjury on the form designated or established for purposes of paragraph (1), that the individual is a citizen or national of the United States, an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence, or an alien who is authorized under this chapter or by the Attorney General to be hired, recruited, or referred for such employment. Such attestation may be manifested by either a hand-written or an electronic signature.

that in NO WAY states us citizens MUST fill out the form

[Patriotdiscussions]

wow it sure looks like this has to do with us citizens, I mean look who does the investigations about this section.

(2) Authority in investigations
In conducting investigations and hearings under this subsection—

(A) immigration officers and administrative law judges shall have reasonable access to examine evidence of any person or entity being investigated,

(B) administrative law judges, may, if necessary, compel by subpoena the attendance of witnesses and the production of evidence at any designated place or hearing, and

(C) immigration officers designated by the Commissioner may compel by subpoena the attendance of witnesses and the production of evidence at any designated place prior to the filing of a complaint in a case under paragraph (2).

[Pottapaug1938]

Ok, now your turn.

Show where the law states us citizens must fill out form i9 or be subject to penalties.

8 USC 1324a:

(2) Individual attestation of employment authorization
The individual must attest, under penalty of perjury on the form designated or established for purposes of paragraph (1), that the individual is a citizen or national of the United States, an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence, or an alien who is authorized under this chapter or by the Attorney General to be hired, recruited, or referred for such employment. Such attestation may be manifested by either a hand-written or an electronic signature.

that in NO WAY states us citizens MUST fill out the form

[Pottapaug1938]

wow it sure looks like this has to do with us citizens, I mean look who does the investigations about this section.

(2) Authority in investigations
In conducting investigations and hearings under this subsection—

(A) immigration officers and administrative law judges shall have reasonable access to examine evidence of any person or entity being investigated,

(B) administrative law judges, may, if necessary, compel by subpoena the attendance of witnesses and the production of evidence at any designated place or hearing, and

(C) immigration officers designated by the Commissioner may compel by subpoena the attendance of witnesses and the production of evidence at any designated place prior to the filing of a complaint in a case under paragraph (2).

And your point -- if any -- is...?

[Judge Roy Bean]

Ok, now your turn.

Show where the law states us citizens must fill out form i9 or be subject to penalties.

8 USC 1324a:

(2) Individual attestation of employment authorization
The individual must attest, under penalty of perjury on the form designated or established for purposes of paragraph (1), that the individual is a citizen or national of the United States, an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence, or an alien who is authorized under this chapter or by the Attorney General to be hired, recruited, or referred for such employment. Such attestation may be manifested by either a hand-written or an electronic signature.

that in NO WAY states us citizens MUST fill out the form

What's the point? The employer must, so if you want to be an employee you have to provide the information required to the satisfaction of the employer.

[Pottapaug1938]

From Wikipedia:

The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (IRCA) required employers to verify that all newly hired employees present "facially valid" documentation verifying the employee's identity and legal authorization to accept employment in the United States.[1] The I-9 form or more properly the Employment Eligibility Verification Form is provided by the federal government for that purpose. Every employee hired after November 6, 1986 must complete an I-9 form at the time of hire. Employees must complete Section 1 of the form at the actual beginning of employment. The employer must complete Section 2 within three days of starting work.[1] The employer is responsible for ensuring that the forms are completed properly, and in a timely manner. The I-9 is not required for unpaid volunteers or for contractors.[1] However, a company could still find itself liable if it contracts work to a company knowing that the contractor employs unauthorized workers.[1] On March 8, 2013, the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services USCIS published a new I-9 Form. [2] Use of earlier versions of the I-9 form are only acceptable until May 7, 2013. After May 7, 2013, all employers must use the revised I-9 Form. [3] The revised I-9 form requires input from both the employee and employer (or an authorized representative of the employer). Although the new form is largely the same, several lay-out changes were made in order to make the form easier to read and more user-friendly. [4]

If anyone wants further details, they can go to the Wikipedia site and click on the citation numbers.

[chronistra]

that in NO WAY states us citizens MUST fill out the form

How do you think the employer is supposed to determine who is a US citizen/resident and who is an unauthorized alien? The form is required because it is used as the determinant. The individual who wants to work has to attest that they are, in fact, entitled to work in the United States.

There is no criminal penalty attached to a would-be employee refusing to prove work eligibility, but there are both civil and criminal penalties for employERS who hire unauthorized aliens, so employers who want to avoid those penalties simply don't hire people for whom they cannot obtain proof of eligibility, and the I-9 form constitutes proof.

[JamesVincent]

Form I-9 consists of three sections:

Section One

Completed by your employees

Section Two

Completed by employers

Section Three

Completed by employers for employees who are rehired or whose employment authorization requires reverification

http://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/comple ... t-form-i-9

[Pottapaug1938]

that in NO WAY states us citizens MUST fill out the form

That's true, if you don't mind being unemployed or having to work only in the "underground economy". If you want a regular job, you and your new employer MUST fill out an I-9. It's as simple as that.

[bmxninja357]

even gun toting dopers slangin' crack are required to pay taxes on the proceeds.

ninj

[Patriotdiscussions]

So ALL employees have to fill out a I-9 form? Why does the government come right out and say that then?



Employers must:
Verify the identity and employment authorization of each person hired after Nov. 6, 1986. For employment in the Commonwealth of the Mariana Islands (CNMI), this verification requirement applies to persons hired after Nov. 27, 2009.
Complete and retain a Form I-9 for each em­ployee required to complete the form.


The clue would be, the bolded part does not say every employee hired, like if every employee had to fill one out.

It says for every employee REQUIRED, sort of like beating around the bush that some are not required.

Strange, here you experts say every employee has to, but the gov agency website who wrote the dang form says nothing about everyone, every employee,etc.


http://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/penalties

[ontobserver]

So ALL employees have to fill out a I-9 form? Why does the government come right out and say that then?



Employers must:
Verify the identity and employment authorization of each person hired after Nov. 6, 1986. For employment in the Commonwealth of the Mariana Islands (CNMI), this verification requirement applies to persons hired after Nov. 27, 2009.
Complete and retain a Form I-9 for each em­ployee required to complete the form.


The clue would be, the bolded part does not say every employee hired, like if every employee had to fill one out.

It says for every employee REQUIRED, sort of like beating around the bush that some are not required.

Strange, here you experts say every employee has to, but the gov agency website who wrote the dang form says nothing about everyone, every employee,etc.


http://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/penalties

You are correct that not every employee is required to fill out the form; those hired before Nov 6, 1986 don't have to complete one.

[Pottapaug1938]

So ALL employees have to fill out a I-9 form? Why does the government come right out and say that then?

http://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/penalties

All right, then. From your own source:

"Complete and retain a Form I-9 for each em­ployee required to complete the form."

The I-9 also states:

"Section 1. Employee Information and Attestation. (Employees must complete and sign Section 1 of Form I-9 no later than the first day of employment, but not before accepting a job offer."

In other words, Sparky: if you don't fill out your portion of the I-9, and the employer does not fill out his/hers, you are going to have a very hard time working legally within the U.S.

[chronistra]

The clue would be, the bolded part does not say every employee hired, like if every employee had to fill one out.

No, the clue would be that they don't have to repeat the requirements every time.

Do you want it to be worded like this? "Verify the identity and employment authorization of each person hired after Nov. 6, 1986. For employment in the Commonwealth of the Mariana Islands (CNMI), this verification requirement applies to persons hired after Nov. 27, 2009. Complete and retain a Form I-9 for each em­ployee hired after Nov. 6, 1986, except in the Commonwealth of the Mariana Islands (CNMI) where this requirement applies to persons hired after Nov. 27, 2009."

That is functionally the same as the actual text, but is more awkward. The first sentence sets out the requirements. As it is written, every time they need to refer to the persons required, they can simply say "each employee required to complete the form" rather than repeating all of the requirements (which also means that if they need to change the requirements for any reason, they need be changed in only one place).

[Pottapaug1938]

Employers must:
Verify the identity and employment authorization of each person hired after Nov. 6, 1986. For employment in the Commonwealth of the Mariana Islands (CNMI), this verification requirement applies to persons hired after Nov. 27, 2009.
Complete and retain a Form I-9 for each em­ployee required to complete the form.


The clue would be, the bolded part does not say every employee hired, like if every employee had to fill one out.

It says for every employee REQUIRED, sort of like beating around the bush that some are not required.

So now you are playing word games over the meaning of "each" vs. "every". I don't know which world you inhabit, Pal; but the one which the rest of us inhabit makes little, if any, distinction between the two. The bottom line -- once again -- is that if you want to work legally in the U.S., you're going to need to fill out your portion of the I-9; and you can bet that your employer is going to give one to you, because he/she will want to avoid the legal hassles which would result if they didn't give you the I-9 and then submit it on your behalf.

Just because a legal phrase is not worded the way you want it to be worded does not mean that you can pretend that it means something other than what it plainly means.

[Gregg]

Explains itself really



(1) Attestation after examination of documentation
(A) In general
The person or entity must attest, under penalty of perjury and on a form designated or established by the Attorney General by regulation, that it has verified that the individual is not an unauthorized alien by examining—
(i) a document described in subparagraph (B), or
(ii) a document described in subparagraph (C) and a document described in subparagraph (D).
Such attestation may be manifested by either a hand-written or an electronic signature. A person or entity has complied with the requirement of this paragraph with respect to examination of a document if the document reasonably appears on its face to be genuine. If an individual provides a document or combination of documents that reasonably appears on its face to be genuine and that is sufficient to meet the requirements of the first sentence of this paragraph, nothing in this paragraph shall be construed as requiring the person or entity to solicit the production of any other document or as requiring the individual to produce such another document.

Okay, so you've confirmed that you can look things up, and I'm pretty much sure that everyone here agrees that it explains itself, however, I doubt that anyone else here interprets it the way you do. Why don't you explain what you think it means and how it doesn't require a form to be completed for a US citizen?

It explains what it means, and how does it not require a form for a us citizen?

1. the big one is, it does not say, us citizens MUST fill out this form.
2. it is under the section dealing with aliens.
3. the authority for the law specifically states ALIENS
4. the only penalties are for ALIENS
even the definitions of common words such as "hire" are again DEALING WITH ALIENS.



Ok, now your turn.

Show where the law states us citizens must fill out form i9 or be subject to penalties.

It doesn't no citizen is required to fill out the form, and there is no penalty for refusing to do so. However, employers are required to prove that all employees are legally eligible to work in the US, and the only way to do so is to provide the form upon demand. So yes, as an applicant or new hire CAN refuse to fill it out with no punishment. The leap of logic that you cannot seem to grasp is that, in order to protect themselves, employers can quite reasonably decide to not hire you, since by doing so they are just assuming that you are not an illegal alien not entitled to work in the US and the penalty would be on them.

You have the absolute right to be an asshole, but you cannot make others bear the responsibility for it.