Practical advice for Hendrickson's Heroes

[Famspear]

A posting at losthorizons.com from user "BobNWA":

I will spare you a very long and sad story and just get right to the point.

My advice to you is that you should continue to file a return in the way IRS expects it if you can answer "Yes" to ANY of the following questions.

1. Would the tax you would owe for this year be less than the current frivolous return penalty of $5,000? Would it be less than $10,000 assuming you filed a Form 1040 and at least one Form 4852?

2. Are you planning on filing a Form 843 instead of a Form 4852? If yes, prepare to fight a $5,000 penalty for each one you send....oh and a NOD [Statutory Notice of Deficiency] in about 6 to 12 months.

3. Are you planning on filing a Formal Claim for Refund or some other type of mythological tax expert non-sense to try to get all your money back? If yes, you'll be the happily slapped with another $5,000 penalty within a few weeks of filing it....oh and a NOD in about 24 months give or take.

4. Do you understand that tax laws change every year and for the past few years it has gotten much harder to win against IRS? Did you know the frivolous return penalty used to be $500 and it only applied to returns? Now it's $5,000 and IRS can apply it to anything you send them. Imagine sending a response letter they deem frivolous!

5. Do you enjoy spending your free time with your family, your children, your friends, etc?

6. Do you want to keep your job?

Before you even decide to go down this path, consider the value of your time and the value of your time with your family and children. I am not a troll, I am someone just like you that got sucked into this vortex several years ago and have finally come to my senses that the tax I would owe is far less than the easily slapped $5,000 penalties IRS puts on everything you send to them that they don't agree with, plus I have missed out on several years of my children's lives.

Yeah, I know the system is corrupted. But in the grand scheme of things I'd rather pay a couple of hundred or thousand dollars each year than to spend another weeknight or weekend writing letters and researching solutions. I have binders of letters in my home and baskets of green cards from the post office. I don't have many assets to protect, and I certainly don't want to lose my job over all this mess. What I am trying to say is that it's not worth my time to continue this fight, so I am returning to filing and find every conceivable legal deduction I can to legally reduce my liability as low as possible.

If you have the money and time to fight, go for it. Beat them and spread the word how you did it, but make sure it is something that is bulletproof and will work for everyone until the tax laws are changed.

Don't ever believe anyone who tells you that if something is written in stone it's permanent. The stone can be chipped away or simply crushed and new laws written on new ones. For what is law today is the dust of tomorrow.

Bob

(bolding added)

http://www.losthorizons.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2458

[Thule]

Oh dear... Fanboy #1 Pat Mooney is going to go screaming monkey on BobNWA.

[Famspear]

Back around September 15, 2009, user "BobNWA" began a thread at losthorizons (which he entitled US Tax Court and a CtC Return) with this post:

Ok, I know others have tried to talk about this topic only to have it steer into some variant, but let's get down to it and keep this on topic to the request.

If you have filed a CtC return AND petitioned US Tax Court and either won or lost, please post your story and advice to those of who may have to do this.

If you have case numbers too, that's even better!

Bob

(bolding added)

http://www.losthorizons.com/phpBB/viewt ... ght=#20565

A few days later, he wrote:

5 days later and no replys? Anyone know if TCTaskForce is reponding to emails?

As of this morning, March 21, 2010, Bob has never received a response.

[Famspear]

The angry responses have already begun. When BobNWA wrote:

My advice to you is that you should continue to file a return in the way IRS expects it if you can answer "Yes" to ANY of the following questions.

Crackhead "GregF" responded with:

Bob, did anyone on this board ask for your advice?

Translation of Crackhead GregF's response:

I don't want to hear what you have to say, because it makes me feel uncomfortable.

When BobNWA wrote:

Before you even decide to go down this path, consider the value of your time and the value of your time with your family and children. I am not a troll, I am someone just like you that got sucked into this vortex several years ago and have finally come to my senses that the tax I would owe is far less than the easily slapped $5,000 penalties IRS puts on everything you send to them that they don't agree with, plus I have missed out on several years of my children's lives.

Crackhead GregF responded with this:

If this is just about the 'money', then I would say you have gone down the wrong path.

Translation of Crackhead GregF's response:

As a true kamikaze follower of Hendrickson, I don't care about the money, and I don't care about family and children, either.

These guys really stick together!

[The Observer]

If you have the money and time to fight, go for it. Beat them and spread the word how you did it, but make sure it is something that is bulletproof and will work for everyone until the tax laws are changed.

Which should be the acid test for any de-tax theory being put forth as the magic bullet. This is exactly why Bob could never get any response to his request for a list of CtC victories or losses with case numbers - the win/loss column would have been to embarrassing.

[David Merrill]

Pete's process can be salvaged by getting away from the superfluous arguments he advises upon IRS-assessment and implementing redemption of lawful money nunc pro tunc. In other words one shows non-endorsement and lawful money demand on a few paychecks and then challenges a social fraud.

One cannot be expected to sue all the people who were conditioned like your civics teachers, the bank tellers, your parents etc. So you simply hold an accusation in counterclaim that you would have redeemed lawful money since your first paycheck ever, had you been taught about the 1913 remedy in good faith.

Fraud vitiates all contracts!

Pete's arguments, if challenged by the IRS would bring sanctions to any attorney if brought up in tax court.



Regards,

David Merrill.

[Doktor Avalanche]

Translation of Crackhead GregF's response:

As a true kamikaze follower of Hendrickson, I don't care about the money, and I don't care about family and children, either.

These guys really stick together!

Nailed it.

[Nikki]

arguments, if challenged by the IRS would bring sanctions to any attorney if brought up in tax court

[Famspear]

Uh, oh. Now a user called sojudave responds to GregF's anger:

Greg,

Bob didn't say anything out of the ordinary did he? Let's face it, it's about the bottom line. That always has been and will continue to be money. Why do you have a job? For the principles or for the money? All he said was to seriously consider the cause and effect of filing CTC, and let's face it, how many success stories have you found on this forum? Your reaction to his post comes across as brainwashed. If CTC is the way the truth and the light, then an open and rational discussion should be no problem, and your reaction would not be warranted.

http://www.losthorizons.com/phpBB/viewt ... 3886#23886

(bolding added)

I think it is interesting that GregF ignored Bob's repeated references to the effect on Bob's family, and tried to pretend that Bob was only concerned about "the money." GregF himself pretends to want to stand only on "principle".

[Nikki]

Doreen is working very hard for equality. She wants a prison sentence just like her husband:

BobNWA- Frankly, weasels like you disgust me. Your six rhetorical questions are asinine, seeming to only encourage others to be the wuss that you've revealed yourself to be. Even if you're not a troll, you lack moral character, since someone who knows a truth but is willing to look the other way for his own security is nothing more than a coward.

Think about what you're saying. 1)"the tax that I would owe" is an acknowledgment that you don't believe you actually owe it, yet you're willing to bend over and give it up. 2)"find every conceivable legal deduction I can to legally reduce my liability" is disingenuous, since you know you have no legal liability anyhow. 3)What kind of example are you setting for your children? When the going gets tough, you crawl under a rock. Nice job, Bob NWA. I wouldn't want them in my kids' circles. Um, Doreen, who's going to take care of YOUR offspring when your husband is in prison and your home is sold off?

Don't post here anymore. We don't need your despair. We have enough of our own.

sojudave- You're off-point. An "open and rational discussion" isn't a problem; whining and belly-aching is. Of course we work for money or barter or whatever, but handing over a portion of our labor in exchange for being "allowed" to do it is pure slavery. If that suits a person like Bob, "May your chains rest lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

As far as your sarcasm "let's face it, how many success stories have you found on this forum?" What do you expect? Folks come here looking for assistance when encountering unlawful resistance. Do you not read the newsletter? I think there may be a few success stories posted there. Cite one. Any one. Hello, Doreen?

[Doktor Avalanche]

Uh, oh. Now a user called sojudave responds to GregF's anger:

That doesn't sound like someone who's been dipping in the soju.

[LPC]

A parallel parable may be like (maybe not) the drunk who said: "I've lost my wife, my house, my job, my car, but you know what? I'm STILL thirsty."

Thanks, but no thanks.

I'm still "thirsty" to be free of tyranny and oppression that really doesn't/ shouldn't apply to me...

Is SaintPaul admitting that his "thirst" to be free of "tyranny and oppression" is a self-destructive addiction?

[Nikki]

The decorated dog is more of a patriot then any ten of the CrackHeads -- Doreen included.

[Gregg]

I've been down your road since 1980, and taken the typical hits: lost wife; lost house; "detained" for five (5) months pre-trial, but acquitted on all counts; lost monies through liens/levies; and within last year have received eight (Cool Frivolous Return Penalty notices "due to CTC filings" at, you guessed it, $5,000.00 each. But you know what? It makes all the difference in the world, to me, as an American, to fight these insidious demons.

Setting here on my deck, looking out over the golf course, thinking about the renovations ongoing at my house in Gettysburg, and all the other "merely material things" I've amassed over the years, I don't begrudge the IRS the few bits they took along the way. But after reading the genius above, for just a minute, I wish I was free like him instead of the slave he knows I am....

[Lambkin]

Is SaintPaul admitting that his "thirst" to be free of "tyranny and oppression" is a self-destructive addiction?

That would be the first step, but no, I don't think so. A 12-step program for the tax denier is not a bad idea but most of the LH regulars are a long way from understanding the damage they have done to their families. I suspect there are more like BobNWA who do come to realize what they have done but most of them probably don't come back and admit their errors on the forum.

[Joey Smith]

Coincidentally, the LostHeads website seems to be down.

[Lambkin]

Coincidentally, the LostHeads website seems to be down.

I just checked. Unfortunately your optimism is unwarranted.

[Nikki]

I realize that I'm not the most highly compensated of Quatloosians since I hold a simple sararied job.

Nevertheless, (having just given TurboTax a thorough workout) I suspect that my combined Federal and state taxes for this year probably exceed the gross income gross income of most of the LoserHeads.

Despite that, I will go to sleep tonight in my own little beddie secure in the knowledge that I will not be receiving any communications from the IRS this year except for a very small refund check.

[/gloat]

[Famspear]

Things are heating up. BobNWA writes:

You want a story. Fine. You want discussion. Fine. Call me a coward, that's fine too. But don't call me stupid because yes it is about the money, my wife, my house and my children. I don't like tyranny either, but from a business perspective, it's more cost-effective to me to pay the $1k to $2k in tax than to try to fight of $10,000 penalties plus an NOD for another $12,000. But do what you want to do, I won't stop you. However I feel it is important for those out there reading these forums to understand that there is no silver bullet. No one has been right, at least not for very long, and ends up getting nailed because they strayed from the flock of large numbers.

When I started this journey for tax freedom is [sic] was reading some 30 page document from some guy I can't remember anymore. Then it moved on to Irwin Schiff, and we all know what happened to him.

After Irwin, it was another nut who claimed he had the answer to beating the IRS with a Default. He died in Belarus and no one who listened to him either won against IRS.

I didn't even listen to Larken Rose or Dr. Clarkson or even Charles Conces because they wanted me to buy packages from them and their stuff didn't work either. Oh, and Conces died too about two years ago still fighting IRS.

Next up is Pete. Now Pete had it right, except that IRS has construed the Form 4852 to mean something else than its intended purpose and a new Tax Return Team has formed to try to analyze the law and apply it along with rebutting the presumptions made by the information returns filed. The laws were changed a couple of years ago and now just about everything we did when we did what Pete revealed doesn't seem to work anymore either.

I personally believe the root of the problem is in the information returns and getting whomever tries to file them to not file them. There is no remedy that I have found in the code to get them removed from the record and let's face it, a business needs the employee's wages for their tax deduction. Do you really think they are going to give that up?

If you truly want to live tax-free and not have any dealings with IRS, then you will have to live in the underground economy and off the books. How? Go buy storage units at auctions and sell the stuff online on craigslist.

For me, I don't want to lose my current job and lose my family, they are more valuable to me than anything in this world. I don't want governmental tyranny either, but my wife always tells me that as one person I cannot change the world. I am not a coward for going back into the fold, I am simply biding my time while the rest of you get nailed that stray from the flock. Some get away, others get taken down really bad and I don't want to be one of those that gets taken down.

One guy got so sick of dealing with IRS he smashed his plane into a local office recently. For some people, this fight is your life and if it's how you want to spend it that's your choice. I choose to no longer fight. I have better things to do like enjoy the outdoors while I can with my wife and my children.

(bolding added).

Doreen responds:

Bob - I think I was very clear. I don't want your story. I don't want your discussion. You are a coward, though I didn't see where anyone called you stupid. As for Peter and I, it isn't about the money (which includes the house); it's about the legacy we leave our children. You choose to leave them a lawless government, rather than the one the Founders envisioned for them and their grandchildren. We stand up for our kids and futures.

Your history lesson is garbage as well, purely meant to discourage courageous patriots who are just beginning the fight from which you and yours will benefit. I'd suggest you encourage them instead, since you've lost the b..ls to fight the battle alongside us. If your family is so important, it seems you'd want to secure their free future, rather than leave them in slavery. (Btw, the underground economy is not available to everyone, but I hope you can help your kids live free there.)

In addition, regarding your sad history, it appears that you were taken in by some well-meaning (and some not-so-well-meaning) people before you stumbled upon Peter's research. As is so often the case, individuals blame CtC for not miraculously fixing years of screw-ups. This isn't Wonderland; typically, if you do it right the first time, there are no problems.

Please don't distract any further those of us fighting your battle for you. We don't have time for your whimpering posts. Our success against this lawless government is a question of numbers and you've chosen to go back to the negative column. If you find your resolve once more, I'd welcome you back, but until then...

(bolding added).

[Doktor Avalanche]