The Real LB Bork Thread

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wserra
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The Real LB Bork Thread

Post by wserra »

LB Bork's magnum opus appears to be a screed called "The Red Amendment". It's not available to read online, since Bork wants you to pay $30 for it (or $35 for the "Deluxe Edition"). I'd sooner give to Lyndon LaRouche. Still, Bork has put up an entire site devoted to it. It gives you a pretty good idea what this guy is about.

Bork begins his description of his own work with a quote from former Congressman John Rarick of Louisiana:
We have tolerantly permitted the habitual misuse of words to serve as a vehicle to abandon our foundations and goals. Thus, the present use and expansion of the 14th Amendment is a sham — serving as a crutch and hoodwink to precipitate a quasi-legal approach for overthrow of the tender balances and protections of limitation found in the Constitution.
Now, I knew I recognized the name, so I looked into John Rarick. He was one of the last diehard segregationists in Congress. He was a judge before he went to Congress, and once referred to integration as "a tool of the Communist conspiracy." As a Congressman, after Martin Luther King was assassinated, Rarick called him "a Communist errand-boy" and a man "whose only claim to fame was disobedience of the law". When someone like this - in 1967 - complains about how the federal government "overthrow[s] the tender balances and protections of limitation found in the Constitution", it's perfectly clear what he's saying - leave the bubbas in Louisiana to their oppressive devices. Southern politicians used such racial codes routinely in the early days of the civil rights movement.

I don't know if Bork realizes this. If he does, he adopts odious ideas from a racist past. If he doesn't, it shows the level of his "scholarship". He can choose whether he displays evil or ignorance.

So the "Red Amendment" refers to the Fourteenth. Bork clearly finds it to be the root of all evil: it "was used to impose illegal taxes, create an illegal central bank, issue worthless fiat money and confiscate the lawfully-held gold of American citizens". It is, in Bork's words, an "ungratified Amendment". Bork doesn't cite a single case, statute or constitutional provision in support of all those claims of illegality. Bork offers several excerpts on another page; not a single citation to anything among them. Apparently Rarick is enough.

The problem, according to Bork, has to do with one's "Nationality". You need to "correct" your "nationality" in order to become free. Bork will kindly help you with this - for a fee, of course.

So what's all this stuff about "Nationality"? Well, he has put up a pdf called "Nationality Premise". I'll try to describe that "premise", but a warning to the reader - legally, it's gibberish. That makes it difficult to describe. While I love the poem, try describing Lewis Carroll's "Jabberwocky" to someone who hasn't read it.

The gibberish begins in the first non-introductory paragraph: "The general make-up of the American union under the law of nations is that each state is a country (or nation)." That, of course, is nonsense, and Bork just states the nonsense with no support, as though it's obvious. As is typical of sovereign lawyer wannabes, he grabs a legal concept and uses it in a context in which it has no application. There is, of course, a "law of nations". It is a poorly-defined body of principles which is intended to guide relations between countries, and has nothing whatsoever to do with those countries' internal governance. The law of nations, combined with treaties and international agreements, make up international law. The Constitution is supreme over treaties, agreements and the "law of nations". Reid v. Covert, 354 U.S. 1 (1957). Bork's train derails just out of the station.

Bork commits the same sleight of hand in another of his screeds which has made the paytriot rounds, one he calls "Income Tax! Do you Volunteer?":
Before going into great detail—simply put—you are in the wrong nation!
This whole legal issue is based on international law (a.k.a. Law of Nations).
Well, no, it isn't. The Constitution - including the Fourteenth Amendment - is the supreme law of the land. Once case - Reid - blows down the entire house of cards.

There really is little point in going line-by-line through either of these tracts when their premise is wrong. Still, the reader who goes farther finds sentence after sentence of breathtakingly wrong legal fantasy, stated either without citation or with a citation that fails to support (actually, usually contradicts) Bork's proposition.

So what do you do if "you are interested in claiming your nationality of right held under International Law", even though there is no such thing? Well, I'm sure all the readers will be shocked to learn that you pay Bork. You fill out the form and send it to him with $450. You later send him another $300, perhaps one-time and perhaps every year, it's not clear. What do you get for your (at least) $750? Well, "the legal process involves a procedure, which is not much different than filing a tax return". Oh, it's a "procedure". Informative. What "procedure"? Well, "the process is executed based on research of law and the knowledge of administrative procedures". I get it - it's a procedure procedure. The double-talk just goes on, without Bork ever saying what he does. I wonder why that is?

And what do you supposedly get for your money? Bork offers several things:
Q: Am I expatriating? A: Yes, technically
No, "technically". The only means of expatriation are set forth in 8 USC 1481. Look at them. "Pay Bork" isn't on the list. And, of course, if you did successfully expatriate, you wouldn't be entitled to be here without doing all the things aliens must do.
Q: If I was a registered voter will this be held against me? A: No. Because of the fraud that is being committed nothing is ever said, questioned or done pursuant to such issue.
The only true answer here. But it won't "be held against me" because it doesn't do anything.
Q: Do I have to pay state and federal Income Taxes after I terminate my federal status? A: As a general rule: No.
False, possibly criminal. Correct answer: this mumbo-jumbo has no effect on your obligation to pay taxes. If you made enough that you had to pay beforehand, you still do. Ask Bork to tell you of one verifiable instance of someone not having to pay income tax. Just one.
Q: Does the United States Constitution still apply to me? A: Only for issues that pertain to public lawor when the federal government deals with you. Example: The gun laws that the federal governmentpasses generally will not apply to you in your country.
But Bork doesn't buy into "sovereign citizen" nonsense. No indeedy. So ask him for one person who can show that federal law doesn't apply to him. Just one.
Q: How are my legal matters handled as a national de jure? A: Most matters will be handled in a different manner; however, depending on the situation they may be no different.This is where studyof the law will be beneficial. The Coalition may be able to assist in these matters.
Oh. Most things will be different, except those things that won't be different. Pay them more, and maybe they'll explain.
Q: What will my employer say when I request that he stop withholding taxes? A: What can he say. . .He has to stop withholding or he is stealing (misappropriating) your property
Izzat so? No authority? You know the drill: ask Bork for one verifiable instance in which an employer who refuses to stop withholding - as any major employer will - has been found to be "misappropriating your property". Don't hold your breath.

The various "People's Awareness Coalition" sites have a truly extraordinary bullshit density - the amount of nonsense per column cm. There are many, many more examples.

The rules of this thread: we welcome anyone who wishes to prove any legal basis at all for this stuff, certainly including Bork himself. However, what happened to the last "LB Bork" thread isn't going to happen to this one. Posts free of both fact and law will be moved to the appropriate place.
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bmielke

Re: The Real LB Bork Thread

Post by bmielke »

wserra wrote:
Q: Does the United States Constitution still apply to me? A: Only for issues that pertain to public lawor when the federal government deals with you. Example: The gun laws that the federal government passes generally will not apply to you in your country.
But Bork doesn't buy into "sovereign citizen" nonsense. No indeedy. So ask him for one person who can show that federal law doesn't apply to him. Just one.
I would just like to point out that most federal gun laws are based on restricting certain people, like the Gun Control Act of 1968 that restricts Mentally Disabled, Felons, and other certain criminals from owning guns.

The other laws are like the National Firearms Act of 1934 that restrict certain types of guns and devices. the GCA of 1968 places further restrictions.

To me this is advocating unregistered Machine Guns and explosive devices. Most of the restrictions placed on guns and gun ownership are on the state level.
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Re: The Real LB Bork Thread

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

Don't hold your breath, Wes. All you'll get, from the Borkheads, is a lot of verbal tapdancing and a demand that YOU reinvent the legal wheel by proving the truth of law that is so well-settled as to be beyond dispute by the legal community.
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Re: The Real LB Bork Thread

Post by Prof »

Sovereign theories about the 14th Amendment, intended primarily to enfranchise newly freed slaves, seems deeply rooted in the racism which was pandemic in post-Civil War politics, particularly but not exclusively in the South.

When the 14th Amendment was used to crush the segregationist/Jim Crow South beginning in the '50's, Souther racist politicians began to search for ways to characterize the 14th and the Federal government as a tool of radicals. Since "communists" were bad radicals, as opposed to racist, segregationist know-nothing radicals who hated and feared all non whites, including those mongrel Jews, those greasy Italian Catholics, etc., etc., all of the Federal government actions in the desegregation era could be charaterized as "commie" inspired.

Unfortunately, there are still those who somehow see the 14th as not part of the fabric of the law and the Constitution. It was, after all, "forced" on the South. True or not, the validity of a Constitutional Amendment can only be challenged in the political arena. Courts do not entertain such nonsense, for very good reasons.

And, nonsense it is. No court has ever adopted any of these theories, although the Utah Supreme Court and perhaps others have criticized the adoption of the 14th, even the know-nothings in circa '50's Utah didn't try to declare the 14th ineffective or inapplicable.

Bork, and Jurist, are just whistling in the dark.

Also, like our old friend Stevesy, non of the folks understand didly about the common law, how it worked, how it works today on the Federal level. Their writings are best described as "silly." Even "nonsensical" gives too much credit to the thought processes and "research" involved.
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Re: The Real LB Bork Thread

Post by Thule »

wserra wrote:
Q: What will my employer say when I request that he stop withholding taxes? A: What can he say. . .He has to stop withholding or he is stealing (misappropriating) your property
Izzat so? No authority? You know the drill: ask Bork for one verifiable instance in which an employer who refuses to stop withholding - as any major employer will - has been found to be "misappropriating your property". Don't hold your breath.
On the other hand, you have several cases where people haved sued over withholding, and getting laughed at in court. So here it is. The three most likely explanations why there are no cases where an employee successfully terminates withholding.

Number 3. The cases where the employees won are all sealed away to prevent the truth from leaking out.

Number 2. They used the wrong methods, the wrong words and didn't pay me first

Number 1. [unhinged gibberish and demands that others prove some unrelated point]
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Re: The Real LB Bork Thread

Post by ProfHenryHiggins »

Hmm.

If I'm reading this correctly (which may be debatable), Bork is offering citizenship for sale to some "other" nation, much like Audie Watson (of Florida and the Pembina Nation) did?

Considering what the courts ruled regarding Watson, I would think that Brett Bork should be worried about being arrested for breaking the same laws he did.
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Re: The Real LB Bork Thread

Post by wserra »

ProfHenryHiggins wrote:If I'm reading this correctly (which may be debatable), Bork is offering citizenship for sale to some "other" nation, much like Audie Watson (of Florida and the Pembina Nation) did?
You're putting too fine a point on it, HH. The stuff's gibberish. Still, the way I read it, Bork claims to be able to get you free of the feds by becoming a "state national".

It's nonsense. But what really catches LE attention is the claim that you don't have to pay taxes.
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The Jurist

Re: The Real LB Bork Thread

Post by The Jurist »

wserra wrote: I don't know if Bork realizes this. If he does, he adopts odious ideas from a racist past. If he doesn't, it shows the level of his "scholarship". He can choose whether he displays evil or ignorance.
The late John Rarick was on my radio show and had shown no sign of being "a racist".

I look at this as advertising. The Judge even thinks so... Thanks for the post!
And, been at this for over 10 years and it is dong well.

And, only a racist would play the racist card, Wesley.

We will have a workup on you soon, This is you, right...

http://www.iromlaw.com/Bio/WesleySerra.asp

And Wes, assumption is the mother of all defamation tort actions.
The Jurist

Re: The Real LB Bork Thread

Post by The Jurist »

wserra wrote:
ProfHenryHiggins wrote:If I'm reading this correctly (which may be debatable), Bork is offering citizenship for sale to some "other" nation, much like Audie Watson (of Florida and the Pembina Nation) did?
You're putting too fine a point on it, HH. The stuff's gibberish. Still, the way I read it, Bork claims to be able to get you free of the feds by becoming a "state national".

It's nonsense. But what really catches LE attention is the claim that you don't have to pay taxes.
Gibberish. A word used by attorneys who have no legal retort for someone's position. The use of the term is generally a sign of jealousy or incompetency. Sometimes they use the word "nonsense" in place of it.
wserra wrote:The gibberish begins in the first non-introductory paragraph: "The general make-up of the American union under the law of nations is that each state is a country (or nation)." That, of course, is nonsense, and Bork just states the nonsense with no support...
There are references of law in that document this Quattard, Wesley, notes. I suggest that you all look closely at it. This guy is an attorney and depends on case law for his education in law, aside the money he wasted on law school. I have worked with attorneys, and most of them do not even know what a law dictionary looks like. Not to mention not even knowing the law that encompasses the foundations of which the courts make their decisions on. Beware of this guys advice!
Last edited by The Jurist on Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
ProfHenryHiggins
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Re: The Real LB Bork Thread

Post by ProfHenryHiggins »

Which state do you reside in, Jurist?
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Re: The Real LB Bork Thread

Post by Demosthenes »

ProfHenryHiggins wrote:Which state do you reside in, Jurist?
He's in Wisconsin...
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Re: The Real LB Bork Thread

Post by LPC »

The Jurist wrote:I have worked with attorneys, and most of them do not even know what a law dictionary looks like.
I really did laugh out loud at reading that.

I've been practicing law for more than 30 years, and I can probably count on one hand the number of times I have consulted a legal dictionary in the course of my practice. Law students must sometimes use them because they may run into a word or phrase that they don't understand and don't even know where to start researching, but for a good, experienced lawyer to look in a law dictionary would be very odd.

Jurist's comment simply shows how ignorant and inexperienced he is.
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Re: The Real LB Bork Thread

Post by Dr. Caligari »

I've been practicing law for more than 30 years, and I can probably count on one hand the number of times I have consulted a legal dictionary in the course of my practice.
The law is made by legislators (state or federal) when they enact statutes, and by courts when they issue decisions. To cite statutes and court decisions is to cite, quite literally, the law. Legal dictionaries are written by people who are not lawmakers or judges; dictionaries are, at best, one person's opinion of what a legal term means. Add to this the facts that legal terms change their meaning over the years, making older dictionaries obsolete, and that the same word can mean two wildly different things in different areas of the law ("prosecution," to give one example, means something very different to a patent lawyer than it does to a criminal lawyer), and you see why Bork's reliance on dictionaries shows that he is using sleight-of-hand, not law, to make his arguments.
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Re: The Real LB Bork Thread

Post by Prof »

Jurist posted the following:
Gibberish. A word used by attorneys who have no legal retort for someone's position. The use of the term is generally a sign of jealousy or incompetency. Sometimes they use the word "nonsense" in place of it.

wserra wrote:
The gibberish begins in the first non-introductory paragraph: "The general make-up of the American union under the law of nations is that each state is a country (or nation)." That, of course, is nonsense, and Bork just states the nonsense with no support...
There are references of law in that document this Quattard, Wesley, notes. I suggest that you all look closely at it. This guy is an attorney and depends on case law for his education in law, aside the money he wasted on law school. I have worked with attorneys, and most of them do not even know what a law dictionary looks like. Not to mention not even knowing the law that encompasses the foundations of which the courts make their decisions on. Beware of this guys advice!
Let's start with "gibberish." Jurist suggest that this is a quick put down, not a response, used by lawyers. Unfortunately, he is correct about the "put down" part -- because gibberish is a word which refers, says the dictionary, to "rapid, inarticulate or unintelligible talk...." Jurist's statements quoted above are unintelligible, at the very least.

He suggests that lawyers depend on case law for their education in the law. That is correct, in some large part, and in fact is particularly correct when refering to the common law. However, the statement is unintelligible, because Jurist then says that lawyers "do not even know what a law dictionary looks like."

Like most lawyers, I actually own and sometimes use a Law Dictionary-- mine is the 4th Ed. of Black's, which I purchased my first year of law school. A law dictionary, like any other dictionary, is a quick start on a word or something like that with which I may be unfamiliar. But, like my now 47 year old copy of the Standard College Dictionary, purchased my first year of college, I would not rely on a dictionary for more than spelling, punctuation, and a quick start. Even the OED is not a very complete reference work beyond the simple, quick start. Jurist's comments about legal dictionaries appear to be a little like saying that a surgeon should rely upon his book store remainder copy of Gray's Anatomy.

Next, there is another unintelligible statement:
Not to mention not even knowing the law that encompasses the foundations of which the courts make their decisions on.
Since I am in court a lot, and have spent far too many years on both sides of the bench, and taught law school full-time for a number of years (and, before that, taught American history), I think I and most lawyers "know" those "foundations" to which Jurist refers -- it is gibberish to say that lawyers and judges don't know constitutional, statutory, and case law. How else could a lawyer interpret, advise, argue, and even sometimes win lawsuits or give accurate advice? Some of us are even pretty good legal historians, and can tell you where a statute or a case or even a constitutional provision came from.

To describe what Jurist wrote as gibberish is quite correct and quite accurate.
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Re: The Real LB Bork Thread

Post by Dr. Caligari »

To describe what Jurist wrote as gibberish is quite correct and quite accurate.
Further evidence of that is that, when challenged, Jurist doesn't defend any of his bogus legal theories; he attacks his critics and makes vague threats of bringing defamation lawsuits. He never says, for example, "of course following my program makes you exempt from income tax-- here is a published ruling of the IRS or a published decision of a court ruling in favor of one of my clients." (In the real world, it is the IRS and the courts who decide whether someone is tax exempt or not, not L.B. Bork or his dictionaries.) In fact, for all his noise about dictionaries, he doesn't even quote a dictionary definition that supports his delusional theories; he just wants you to take it on faith that somewhere, in some dictionary, there is an entry that supports his nonsense.
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Re: The Real LB Bork Thread

Post by Nikki »

Isn't a valid claim of defamation predicated upon the untruth of the alleged defamatory statement?

If that's the case, then all of Bork's thinly veiled threats are nothing more than posturing -- performing for an audience of potential purchasers of his book and / or his services.

Which nicely segues into a Will Rogers story:

Will was asked (and paid) to speak at some significant meeting of the executives of some public utility company. Said company was named something like (no offense intended if this is a real company and not the one at issue -- literary license privileges invoked) Public Service Electric Company. For mind-numbing hours, various executives rose and spoke at length about the significance of the word "Service" in the company name. Finally, they yielded the podium to Will. "You all are so focused on service. Just remember, that's what stud bulls do to cows. Thank you and good night."

Somehow, that seems to be an appropriate description of Bork's relationship with his customers.
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Re: The Real LB Bork Thread

Post by The Jurist »

This is so entertaining; it is truly an exercise at the look at human behavior.

Do you ego-maniacs even realize that I have high-jacked this thread? You are so busy looking at what I stated about the incompetency of attorneys that you lost sight of its subject matter. Since it's always easier to engage in ad hominem attacks instead of looking at the issues, I'm not surprised that I, and my "ignorance" and "delusion" have become the subject of the thread, unfortunately that is specifically what identifies to me that you have no clue as to the subject matter that was previously put forth.

As I am finding out that most of you "people" are virtually lost in what encompasses the foundations of law, could any one of you attorneys, lawyers (whatever), provide an explanation of what illustrates private law in statutory construction?

This is a very important issue of law due to the fact it will assist in establishing to destroy Serra's diatribe about me apart. If you fail to answer it will illustrate that you are all just, well, plain good old-fashioned, gossipers that are very high on yourselves.
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Re: The Real LB Bork Thread

Post by ProfHenryHiggins »

So why do your detractors tear you a new anus regarding your stance on voting, Jurist?

From several of the websites I've reviewed, it appears that people believe you consider the act of voting to be a crime. I find this mind-boggling.
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Re: The Real LB Bork Thread

Post by Nikki »

"Jurist" seems to have "issues" with standard English "usage."
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Re: The Real LB Bork Thread

Post by Thule »

The Jurist wrote: Do you ego-maniacs even realize that I have high-jacked this thread?
Soooo.... You'd rather high-jack threads than defend your own claims.

But you're right, let's get back to topic. How about the idea that an employer must stop withholding taxes once you declare sovrunity. Any examples of people going to court with that theory?
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