1.5in x 3.5in

[JamesVincent]

I have seen the future of the country my friends, and it doesn't look good. I'll start this post off with a story from my Home Depot days. I was stocking dimensional lumber one night and a customer stopped me. "I can't find any 8 foot 2x4s" he exclaimed. "BS" is what I thought but, being the customer service person I am, I said: "I just put 448 of them in the bin, they're there". "No, they're not, you put in the wrong ones." I got off the forklift, walked over to the bin, pulled out my tape measure and run it down a 2x4. "96 inches, on the dot." I said. "I don't need 96 inches, I need 8 feet!" the customer whined. I walked away.

I tell that story so that I can tell you this one. It would seem that Lowe's has been forced into a class action settlement for.... wait for it.... mislabeling their dimensional lumber as 2"x4", 8'. I kid you not, wish I was. Yes, we as a society have become so braindead that Lowe's customers in California could not understand what all those funny little 's and "s meant and had no clue that a 2x4 didn't actually measure 2"x4", especially when they didn't know what the " meant. So they followed the good old American process of suing whomever made them feel dumb. In a $1.6 million settlement order a judge has ordered Lowe's to change the way the mark their lumber bins.

Lowe’s has new rules regarding how it can label building products in California. A Superior Court judge laid out terms by which the retailer must advertise its 2x4s and other dimensional materials in a $1.6 million settlement order and final judgement filed on August 27. The order, brought on as part of a civil consumer protection action, lists three main rules for the retailer to follow going forward:

“Common descriptions” must be followed by actual dimensions and labeled as such. For instance, a 2×4 must be followed with a disclaimer that the wood is actually 1.5-inches by 3.5-inches and include a phrase equal or similar to “actual dimensions.”
“Popular or common product description,” like the word 2×4, must be “clearly described as ‘popular name,’ ‘popular description,’ or ‘commonly called.'”
Dimension descriptions are required to use the “inch-pound unit,” meaning they must include abbreviations such as “in., ft., or yd.,” and can’t use symbols like ‘ or ” to denote measurements.

http://threepercenternation.com/2014/09 ... -labeling/

I'm sorry, I have never heard of such a load of whiney horse shit. If you do not understand any of the common forms of measurement You shouldn't be building things out of lumber. Here, let me repeat that: If you do not understand what 8' means, how in the hell could you ever read a blueprint or a plan when they are all expressed in that way? What are they gonna do next, make them redo how nails are measured 'cuz some dunce can't figure out what a 16p nail is? Let's redo chain too, don't want them to mistake what a 1# chain is. Ooh...ohh... let's make all rope come in decimals now so we don't confuse them with something else, 'cuz 3/4" manilla is just too hard to understand.

And to go through and actually sue a company for using the correct terms cuz you're too stupid to actually learn what you're doing, and to have a judge let it go through and then rule for them, to me, is just...... IDK what it is, my vocabulary is kinda stretched at the moment. My brain is kinda stretched at the moment also. Especially by this:

“Consumers should expect when making product purchases that retailers are providing accurate information,” said Marin County District Attorney Edward S. Berberian. “Especially when misinformation could adversely affect building projects that more often than not rely on precise measurements.”

They are providing accurate information dipshit. They are not only telling you accurate information, they are advertising it in the way it has been advertised for hundreds of years, ever since we figured out kiln-dried wood shrinks in the kiln. They are telling you exactly what it is you're buying. And if you were so worried by "exactness" why didn't you measure it yourself? OMG, so some resident of Dumfukistan screws up his dog house dream house cuz he can't figure it out... you think a contractor can't figure it out? How the hell were they intending on cutting the wood if they couldn't figure out how to measure it? I know I use this word in vain but.... seriously. Alright, rant over, I haz too much of a sadz now thinking about the fate of mankind if this is what we're coming to.

To be fair it was not customers suing Lowe's, it was County AGs suing them after getting complaints from customers, so they sued them for false advertising.

[AndyK]

I'm astonished that Lowe's didn't fight this decision -- OR PERHAPS they intend to do so -- on the simple grounds that anyone who more than a passing knowledge of carpentry knows the facts about dimensional lumber.

On the other hand, Lowe's might be looking at a cost/benefit regarding the litigation and deciding that it will be cheaper to settle.

Two interesting fall-outs:

1 - Will Home Depot (and all other lumber yards) also post the "this coffee might be hot" warning signs on their dimensional lumber bins?

2 - Which was the bottom-feeding law firm that ran the suit AND how much will the wronged consumers collect? If it's anything like similar cases I've seen in the past, the law firm collects $1.58 million and the remaining $20,000 goes to consumers in the form of $0.50 coupons applicable to their next purchase.

[Burnaby49]

Strangely enough, while Canada went metric over 30 years ago, our lumber is still graded in feet and inches. I suppose to match up to your American standards since that is where we send much of it anyhow. So maybe Lowes was selling Canadian lumber. Our 2X4s are also 1½" by 3½" but as far as I know nobody up here has ever had a hissy fit about it.

[ArthurWankspittle]

Here, and I assume it's the same over there, the reason a 3 x 2 or 4 x 2 isn't 3 x 2 or 4 x 2, is that it is planed from a piece of 3 x 2 and therefore the finished size is smaller. We have gone metric (hell we have supposed to have been metric for about 35-40 years) so the last 3 x 2 I bought was 44mm x 69mm (I think).

[JamesVincent]

A 2x4 starts out as 2"x4" but by the time it gets through the drying and smoothing processes it is 1.5"x3.5". Same with all dimensional lumber. A 1x2 is 3/4"x 1 1/2". Also why 5/4 board is actually 1 1/16", 4/4 board is 13/16", etc. for hardwoods.

[The Dog]

I suppose that this sort of thing occurs when products which have historically been sold to a select group of buyers, i.e. the building trade, starts being sold to consumers.

Some years ago, I used to work for a company serving inter alia the paper industry. One in a while you would come across a report of someone who was horrified that the "woodfree" paper they were buying was actually made from wood!

[chronistra]

My house was built in the 1930s. The 2x4 studs in the walls are really 2" by 4"; the 5/4 trim around the windows is really 1.25" thick. (Nothing in this house is a size easily replaced at the lumberyard.) Somewhere along the line the sizes changed from true to nominal sizes.

[JamesVincent]

My house was built in the 1930s. The 2x4 studs in the walls are really 2" by 4"; the 5/4 trim around the windows is really 1.25" thick. (Nothing in this house is a size easily replaced at the lumberyard.) Somewhere along the line the sizes changed from true to nominal sizes.

Historically 2x4s were 2"x4", which is why they were called that. Most older houses were built with rough hewn lumber, meaning they were cut and then used, they weren't dried or smoothed. And if they were dried it was air dried, which doesn't change take as much moisture out as kiln dried, so it doesn't change the dimensions as much. You'll find a lot of rough cut lumber in floor trusses of old houses, where you'll find 4" x12" trusses instead of 2"x. Partly the reason we have that sizing today is so that every piece of lumber is the exact same size, no matter what mill they come from. In the old days mills would cut the lumber and you would order from them direct. You might order a bunch from one mill and then order more from another mill and find they're slightly different sizes. You don't have that anymore. A 2x4 from Lowe's is the same size as a 2x4 from Home Depot or 84 lumber, or the neighborhood lumber store. Partly it is because kiln dried lumber is more stable.

[chronistra]

This isn't rough-hewn; this lumber was surfaced. (Obviously I have no idea about how it was dried.) I even found one board that had been stamped Weyerhaeuser, so not local mill products either. It sure makes it interesting when I have to replace one.

Of course, I once had a lumber dept manager explain to me how good lumber doesn't grow on trees anymore. (His point was that the old-growth forests are gone, and the fast-growing soft pine isn't nearly the same quality, but it sounded rather odd.)

[fortinbras]

Not to be obtuse, but even I - who can hardly hammer a nail and barely understand the workings of a screwdriver - knew since boyhood that a two-by-four was not exactly two inches by four inches.

e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumber#Dimensional_lumber

[chronistra]

oftwood nominal 2-inch boards are 1.5 inches thick; in hardwood, that same board (more commonly called 8/4) would be 1.75".

Different groups of lumbermen, different standards committees.

[JamesVincent]

As a general rule softwood measurements are given as inches while hardwood measurements are given as quarters. However, it also depends on the application, the grade of the lumber and a bunch of other things. If you go to a Lowe's type store almost everything will be in inches, except for cabinet grade lumber or lumber milled for cabinetry, which will be in quarters, even softwoods or laminates. If you go to a hardwood dealer pricing will be in board foot, not inches or quarters, but the boards will be in quarters generally. (A board foot is the equivalent amount of wood as a board that is 1"x12"x12".) Then you also have the grade of lumber, cabinet grade,#1, #2, #3, all of which denote the amount of visual defects and/or structural defects. Same with plywood. Things like studs will generally be #2 or #3 where as hardwood sold by bulk will be #1 or cabinet grade. All of which are standards set by places like ALSC and are industry wide.

[Number Six]

You probably can never underestimate the potential stupidity of certain customers. There probably is a good reason why customers should always be shown respect no matter how lacking in common sense they may be. As supermarket legend Stew Leonard said: "The customer is always right. Rule two: If the customer is wrong, refer back to rule number one." But he went to federal prison for tax evasion. So there is an illusory aspect to a pure customer being right philosophy. I used to do a lot of tree takedowns. Customers were afraid major hardwoods could crashing through their roofs on a stormy night. No real chance of that happening, and I never met a treeman who refused or tried to argue an idiot customer out of wanted work. That's theoretically at least why certain towns require permits for tree removals and house teardowns if they have important value contrary to the whim of a customer.

I would just try to keep cool and keep educating customers on measurements. It will only get worse as the virtual bubble most people live in gets less and less connected to hard reality.

[Randall]

Just wait til they weigh the patty in their Quarter-Pounder and find it isn't 4-ounces after it's cooked.

[Gregg]

My house was built in the 1930s. The 2x4 studs in the walls are really 2" by 4"; the 5/4 trim around the windows is really 1.25" thick. (Nothing in this house is a size easily replaced at the lumberyard.) Somewhere along the line the sizes changed from true to nominal sizes.

The dimensions are for rough lumber which you can still actually buy from specialty lumber mills, it's rough hewn (and I have six figures in receipts from a home renovation that had to be historically correct) to the dimension that we all call it by. Sometime in the mid 20th century, when homes become much closer to being mass produced, they started cutting and shipping it as smooth finished boards that we all know and love as the 1.5x3.5, partly to allow less skilled workers build a more consistent wall using drywall instead of plaster and latte, and partly to allow mills to ship it in nicely banded bundles that sat and stacked easily on trucks and railroad cars.

My house in Gettysburg has, among many other things like this, true 2x10 floor joists under the floors (new ones that I had replaced) and I assume in the parts of the framing I cannot see, all the 5/4 trim is really 5/4 etc.... and strangely enough, it costs more to have them skip the final finish step..go figure.
The wood that came out, and the original wood that is still in it, is obviously 180 years old and though not kiln dried, I can assure you its as dry as anything baked in a kiln, and it's still more or less a "real" 2x whatever...

[JamesVincent]

I wanted to add this one in because, well, they belong together.

On September 19, 2014, lawyers from the Dallas, Texas law firm of Heygood, Orr and Pearson obtained a $1.25 million jury verdict in federal court in Chicago on behalf of a client who was severely injured while using a Ryobi table saw. The case, one of hundreds of similar defective table saw cases being handled by the firm, involved 30 year-old Brandon Stollings, who was injured in 2007 after his hand came into contact with the blade of his table saw following a kickback event.

http://www.tablesawinjurylawyers.com/he ... y-verdict/

The basis of the suit, as best as i can figure, is that the plaintiff's attorneys claimed that the blade guards that came on Ryobi tablesaws were defective from the factory and required the end user to remove the guard to operate the saw. They also hint that Ryobi has been aware of this problem since 1998? I believe was the year mentioned.

The reasons this one irritates me and makes me want to say that this suit is as full of horse apples as the other are both professional and personal. I actually owned one of the Ryobi table saws mentioned in the suit, bought it in 2000 and used it for several years until I sold it when I bought a bigger saw. It came complete with a blade guard and riving knife. I used that saw quite a bit, made hundreds of cuts with it, never once removed the blade guard to make a cut. As far as the blade guard being kinda foggy, yes, it was. It made not one bit a difference since you don't really need to look at the wood while it's cutting if you set the cut up correctly. You need to look at your hands and watch the wood as it feeds out. We sold several different models of Ryobi saws while I was at Home Depot, every single one had a blade guard and riving knife in a one piece unit. As far as them being clunky to remove every single one had two screws set into the table, took all of a minute to pop off and pop back on. I did take the guard off to clean the table and around the blade, while the saw was unplugged. Only thing I didn't like about it was the table was too small (which is why I bought a bigger one) and I couldn't get the inserts to use a dado head cutter with it (and I was too lazy to make the inserts).

The other reason I don't like this suit is this is the kind of *find an idiot to do something stupid so we can sue* suits that have plagued this country. This is the exact same type of suit that has caused manufacturers to put warning labels on everything, from the Do not put hands or feet in this slot while the blades are turning on a lawnmower to Do not lean this aluminum ladder up against power lines on ladders to Do not remove blade guard while saw is in use on table saws. Yes, that warning is on the saws. Not only table saws but cutoff saws, radial arm saws, circular saws, any type of power saw. Yet... some idiot removed the blade guard and hurt himself and became a new millionaire. My big radial arm saw, also bought in 2000, has it stickered all over the saw and imprinted in the blade guard itself.

I have done woodworking since I was barely able to see the top of my grandfather's workbench and did it professionally for several years doing furniture restoration. I have used dozens of different power saws over the years, made probably tens of thousands of cuts on big saws, have even worked in a sawmill to help family out now and then with some SERIOUSLY big saws. Still have all my fingers and have had exactly two (2) kickbacks. One was on a table saw in a furniture shop and one was on my radial arm at home. Neither time was I injured and the time on the table saw the board had not gone through far enough to hit the riving knife when it kickbacked. Know why I wasn't injured? Because I do not stand in the way of the board in case it does kickback. All the technology in the world will not save you if you treat something capable of reducing your hands to nubs instantly with indifference. And you will do more to save yourself by treating your tools with the respect they deserve then any technology can replace.

I will tell you one thing, and this falls under the *Don't attempt this at home kids, you may injure yourself* category. There are very specific cuts you cannot do with a blade guard in place. I have done them multiple times and never once injured myself. I have seen others do the same cut, never injure themselves. I watched the mackdaddy of all woodworkers, Norm Abrams himself, do them. Last time I checked he had all his fingers. It is, like almost everything in life, all about the preparation. The Seven Ps apply to real life as well as they did in the military.

Edit: Just wanted to add that one of the comments I saw about this article said: Maybe the saw should have come with a warning that said; " Stupid people should not use". So I'm guessing I'm not the only one pissed off over this suit.

[JamesVincent]

Now the same law firm that handled this case, Heygood, Orr & Pearson, is using Facebook to look for more victims of table saws. Isn't there something about actively looking for a suit like that?

[Duke2Earl]

I too have been using power tools and especially power saws for many years and I too still have all of my fingers. I too learned many years ago to stand a bit to the side when pushing a board thru a table saw or using a radial saw (I have both). What is key is understanding exactly how the power tool operates, what exactly the tool is doing, where all of your body is when the tool is operating, and giving what you are doing your absolutely undivided attention. My father taught me to do all that and give power tools the respect they deserve many years ago. And I have taught several younger people in turn.

Unfortunately, I have known those who have been injured. In each case the injury could have been avoided. I have even seen cases where the person operating the power tool did not understand the most basic of rules... how to stop the tool in case of any problem. Unfortunately I know of no cure for stupidity.

[JamesVincent]

Unfortunately, I have known those who have been injured. In each case the injury could have been avoided. I have even seen cases where the person operating the power tool did not understand the most basic of rules... how to stop the tool in case of any problem. Unfortunately I know of no cure for stupidity.

I, too, have seen my share of accidents that were completely avoidable. I talked about the one at the Dundalk Marine Terminal before where a co-worker lost 3 fingers and his thumb ripping plywood down on a table saw. Teaches you a lesson when you have to look for your friend's fingers in the sawdust. Since they were ripping an 8' sheet of ply lengthways they couldn't use the blade guard and did the cut improperly. Totally avoidable. My uncle has had his sawmill for around 30 years now. The only person who ever lost a finger was not to a saw, but due to a stakebody truck. Again, learned a lesson in why not to wear rings while getting in and out of a truck. He has had a couple of accidents over the years with employees, again, every one avoidable. The last one I remember was someone cutting out gun stock blanks on a 24" bandsaw. He pushed the blank too fast through the saw, had his hand in line with the blade, and, presto!, almost lost a thumb. The simple things will save your ass.