Rehash of TP theories (split from "False Returns")

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Investor

Post by Investor »

There are two Pollock cases, that quote is from 158 U.S. 601, the other case is 157 U.S. 429.
Thanks, I see it.

The point is, Steve, you seem to be missing the point that this whole line of cases, as well as the 16th Amendment, is purely based on the need for apportionment. The language "...from whatever source derived..." is clearly in response to the holding in Pollock, which Congress saw as a poor result. When the language is expanded to "...from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration", it is easier to see why the language is there (once you look at the history of the issue).
Investor

Post by Investor »

How do you know that Springer was "federally licensed? Unless admitted in DC, there is no such license to practice (if you consider a DC license "federal").
I too am a lawyer, but have never heard of a federally licensed attorney. Is this something that was done in the 19th century which has died out? I'm not being a smartass, I am genuinely asking if you know something about this.

But that is really besides the point. The point, as I have repeated, is that the 16th Amendment made it clear that income, even income derived from the ownership of property (interest, dividends, rent, etc.) is not subject to the requirement of apportionment, as set out in Article I, Section 9, applying to direct taxes.
Last edited by Investor on Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SteveSy

Post by SteveSy »

Prof wrote:Stevesy posted:
Springer was a federally licensed attorney the tax was justifiable by taxing the privilege of obtaining and using the license the measure being income. Now before one of you come back and say the Springer court never mentioned any privilege I might add that they didn't mention income from property either. Surely many people and businesses paid taxes on income from property in 1865 as that was a major source of income for the wealthy back then. the court never said in Springer that was excluded however on closer examination taxes on certain types of income were considered direct.
How do you know that Springer was "federally licensed? Unless admitted in DC, there is no such license to practice (if you consider a DC license "federal").

...

So, how do you know that Springer was "federally licensed?"
http://memory.loc.gov/ll/llsl/013/0200/02860256.gif
Famspear
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Post by Famspear »

SteveSy wrote:
The Pollock court made a distinction of why Springer was taxed. The question before the court was is Springer's, and they only considered Springer, income taxable by the income tax. Springer operated a very profitable business, it wasn't just a regular paycheck as some of you like lead people to believe. More importantly, he was a federally licensed lawyer, the court had already made it clear in earlier decisions the measure can be anything as long as the act or activity is taxable. The act of obtaining and operating under a federal license was federally taxable. His income today would be in the millions btw.
Steve, I think you are saying that Springer was a "federally licensed lawyer" and that his "federal license" was somehow material to the Court's decision in Springer or in Pollock. That would be false. As you should well know, Springer's occupation as a lawyer and his attorney's license were not only not factors in the Court's Springer decision, they were not even mentioned by the Court in the decision.

As I and others have written in another forum, Springer challenged the constitutionality of the 1864 Revenue Act. Springer's employment and the source of his income were not mentioned by the Court in its opinion in the ''Springer'' case, but were mentioned by the Court in the 1895 case of ''Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Co.'', 157 U.S. 429, ''aff'd on reh'g'', 158 U.S. 601 (1895). Springer's income was from two sources: income in his profession as an attorney, and interest income on United States bonds. ''Pollock'', 157 U.S. 429, at 579-580.

Springer's challenge was based on the contention that the tax imposed by the statute was a direct tax not apportioned among the states according to the population of each state.

Springer had filed a tax return for the tax year 1865 showing $50,798 in income and $4,799 in income tax, but refused to pay the tax. After Springer's failure to pay the tax, the Federal tax collector advertised for sale, and sold, two pieces of real estate owned by Springer in Springfield, Illinois (one of which was Springer's residence), apparently without physically seizing the properties or ejecting Springer from the properties.

The properties were deeded by the tax collector to the United States government. One of the deeds recited the statutory authority for the sale, but the description on the deed included some errors on the dates of the statutes.

In 1874, the government filed a lawsuit of ejectment against Springer.

Springer fought the government's attempt to remove him from the property by objecting to the sale on various grounds. His primary argument was that the 1864 income tax was a direct tax that had not been apportioned among the states according to population, and that the tax therefore violated Article I of the Constitution.

Springer made various other arguments, one of which was that although there was an Act of Congress bearing a certain date, there was no such Act that had been amended on the amendment date cited in one of the deeds. Springer indicated that the statute in question may have been the 1864 revenue act, and argued that if this was correct, the 1864 Act did not authorize the sale of the real estate by the Federal tax collector. 'Springer'', 102 U.S. at 591.

The Supreme Court agreed with Springer that the recital of the Act of Congress in the deed was incorrect. The Court stated that the statute in question was actually the Revenue Act of 1864. ''Springer'', 102 U.S. at 593. Unfortunately, however, the Court rejected Springer's argument that the 1864 Act did not authorize the sale by the tax collector. ''Springer'', 102 U.S. at 593.

The Court then upheld the tax imposed under the 1864 Act, rejecting Springer's argument that the income tax was a "direct tax" within the meaning of Article I.

The Court concluded that "whenever the government has imposed a tax which it recognized as a direct tax, it has never been applied to any objects but real estate and slaves", ''Springer'', 102 U.S. at 599, and ultimately held "that direct taxes, within the meaning of the Constitution, are only capitation taxes, as expressed in that instrument, and taxes on real estate; and that the tax of which the plaintiff in error complains is within the category of an excise or duty". ''Springer'', 102 U.S. at 602.

The holding in ''Springer'' was of course modified in part by the Court in the 1895 case of ''Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Co.'', 157 U.S. 429, ''aff'd on reh'g'', 158 U.S. 601 (1895), where the Court ruled that a tax on income from property in the form of interest, dividends or rent should be treated as a tax on the property itself, and therefore as a direct tax required to be apportioned. The Sixteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution later overruled the ''Pollock'' decision and made clear that there was no requirement for apportionment of income taxes. Later still, in ''Bowers v. Kerbaugh-Empire Co.", 271 U.S. 170 (1926), the Supreme Court reviewed ''Pollock'', the Corporation Excise Tax Act of 1909 and the Sixteenth Amendment, and concluded that Congress had always had the unfettered power to tax income. No Federal court has ever ruled that under Article I or the Amendment, Congress cannot tax income from personal services, income from employments. No Federal court has ever ruled that wages are not income or that wages are not taxable. There are of course statutory exclusions of certain kinds of compensation for services (certain combat pay, certain fringe benefits, and so on), but those are STATUTORY provisions OUTSIDE section 61. They are not constitutional restrictions on the definition of income.

The phony story that Mr. Springer's license as an attorney was somehow material to the Court's decision is an old tax protester lie -- as is the story that the statute in the Springer case taxed only income from Federal employments.

The following is adapted from my commentary from another forum:

Although it's not mentioned in the Supreme Court's opinion in the Springer case, the taxpayer was a practicing attorney. Technically, an attorney is an officer of the court. An attorney in private practice like Springer is not, however, a ''government employee'' (not an employee of the judiciary). I don't recall for sure, but some tax protesters may have falsely claimed that Springer was a government employee and that the Court's holding in the case was limited to income of government employees. That would be false.

Many people who read the phrase "officer of the judiciary" [which was the characterization made by a tax protester] might make three erroneous conclusions: (1) That the Court mentioned that fact in its Springer opinion (the Court did not mention it); (2) That the Court limited its holding in Springer to "officers of the judiciary" (the holding was not limited), and (3) that an "officer of the judiciary" is always a government employee.

Judges, bailiffs, court reporters, and court clerks are government employees. Attorneys engaged in the professional private practice of law are not government employees.

Mr. Springer had correctly pointed out that there was no such Act of "July 1, 1862" on the books. The Court agreed with Springer, but rejected Springer's argument that under the 1864 Act the tax collector's sale was not valid. The Court also rejected Springer's argument that the income tax on Springer's income was a "direct tax".

The 1864 Act imposed the tax on "the gains, profits, and income of every person residing in the United States, or of any citizen of the United States residing abroad, whether derived from any kind of property, rents, interest, dividends, or salaries, or from any profession, trade, employment, or vocation, carried on in the United States or elsewhere, or from any other source whatever [ . . . ]" Revenue Act of 1864, 13 Stat. 223, sec. 116 (June 30, 1864). Contrary to what some tax protesters may argue, Springer never contended that the Constitution prohibited the 1864 Act from taxing the income from a "profession, trade, employment, or vocation," or that the 1864 income tax was limited in its application to "government employees" rather than "every person residing in the United States" and "every citizen of the United States residing abroad."

[end of adapted commentary]

Steve, I think you have been reading tax protester literature. Bad, bad, for your mental health, Steve.

By the way, if Mr. Springer was a "federally licensed" lawyer, he was so only if (and to the extent that) he may have been admitted to the bar of a Federal court (which of course many lawyers are). Attorneys are licensed under state law, and are admitted to the bars of the Federal courts based mainly on their state bar admissions. You can call Federal bar admission a "federal licensure" if you like, but it does not change the point that Springer's status as an attorney, as an officer of the court, did not make him a court employee or any other kind of government employee, and was not relevant to the taxability of his income from the practice of law.
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
SteveSy

Post by SteveSy »

SteveSy wrote:
Prof wrote:Stevesy posted:
Springer was a federally licensed attorney the tax was justifiable by taxing the privilege of obtaining and using the license the measure being income. Now before one of you come back and say the Springer court never mentioned any privilege I might add that they didn't mention income from property either. Surely many people and businesses paid taxes on income from property in 1865 as that was a major source of income for the wealthy back then. the court never said in Springer that was excluded however on closer examination taxes on certain types of income were considered direct.
How do you know that Springer was "federally licensed? Unless admitted in DC, there is no such license to practice (if you consider a DC license "federal").

...

So, how do you know that Springer was "federally licensed?"
http://memory.loc.gov/ll/llsl/013/0200/02860256.gif

One thing to remember this was a time of war...it would have been very unpatriotic to contest contributing to needed revenue to fight the evil Southerners. btw, a good portion of the U.S wasn't going to be paying at all so that's why everything under the sun was taxed in the Northern states.
Famspear
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Post by Famspear »

Oh, getting back to tax protester lies: One of the lies is that the statute in Springer taxed only the income of Federal government employees.

The 1864 Act imposed the income tax on:
the gains, profits, and income of every person residing in the United States, or of any citizen of the United States residing abroad, whether derived from any kind of property, rents, interest, dividends, or salaries, or from any profession, trade, employment, or vocation, carried on in the United States or elsewhere, or from any other source whatever [ . . . ]
--Revenue Act of 1864, 13 Stat. 223, sec. 116 (June 30, 1864) (bolding added).
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
Investor

Post by Investor »

All this "federal licensed lawyer" and "the Pollock Court said (did not say) this" stuff is just a tangential departure from the discussion.

Steve, yes or no:

1. Was the Pollock case decided based on the apportionment provisions of Article I, Section 9?

2. Does the 16th Amendment not say that Congress can tax incomes without apportionment?

End of discussion, really.
SteveSy

Post by SteveSy »

Famspear wrote:SteveSy wrote:
The Pollock court made a distinction of why Springer was taxed. The question before the court was is Springer's, and they only considered Springer, income taxable by the income tax. Springer operated a very profitable business, it wasn't just a regular paycheck as some of you like lead people to believe. More importantly, he was a federally licensed lawyer, the court had already made it clear in earlier decisions the measure can be anything as long as the act or activity is taxable. The act of obtaining and operating under a federal license was federally taxable. His income today would be in the millions btw.
Steve, I think you are saying that Springer was a "federally licensed lawyer" and that his "federal license" was somehow material to the Court's decision in Springer or in Pollock. That would be false. As you should well know, Springer's occupation as a lawyer and his attorney's license were not only not factors in the Court's Springer decision, they were not even mentioned by the Court in the decision.
The question was, does he owe the tax plain and simple, they didn't go in to the details. Everything was submitted before hand and it was obvious he was licensed. They didn't mention income from property either and the law clearly taxed that income. Pollock still found Springer distinguishable. If Springer wasn't overruled the only assumption that can be made is that Springer's income was taxable because of what he did and it wasn't simply because he had an income otherwise Pollock would have had to find the tax on rents constitutional to be consistent.
As I and others have written in another forum, Springer challenged the constitutionality of the 1864 Revenue Act. Springer's employment and the source of his income were not mentioned by the Court in its opinion in the ''Springer'' case, but were mentioned by the Court in the 1895 case of ''Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Co.'', 157 U.S. 429, ''aff'd on reh'g'', 158 U.S. 601 (1895). Springer's income was from two sources: income in his profession as an attorney, and interest income on United States bonds. ''Pollock'', 157 U.S. 429, at 579-580.
But they did identify what he did specifically to earn that income. They had to otherwise they would have had to overrule Springer because the Springer case made no distinction.

By the way, if Mr. Springer was a "federally licensed" lawyer, he was so only if (and to the extent that) he may have been admitted to the bar of a Federal court (which of course many lawyers are). Attorneys are licensed under state law, and are admitted to the bars of the Federal courts based mainly on their state bar admissions. You can call Federal bar admission a "federal licensure" if you like, but it does not change the point that Springer's status as an attorney, as an officer of the court, did not make him a court employee or any other kind of government employee, and was not relevant to the taxability of his income from the practice of law.
You need to read up on history.....and what licenses were issued during that period.
Cpt Banjo
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Post by Cpt Banjo »

SteveSy wrote:The court in Pollock did not affirm taxes on incomes from professions, trades, employments, or vocations as an excise. They did however say that taxes "on" professions, trades, employments, or vocations was an excise and made it clear in several opinions the measure can be anything, which could include income but the tax is on the use of a privilege. Nicol v. Ames states this very concisely
In dictum, the Pollock court recognized that taxes on income from professions, trades, or employments weren't direct taxes; that's why in the second Pollock opinion they spent so much time on the severance issue:
According to the census, the true valuation of real and personal property in the United States in 1890 was $65,037,091,197, of which real estate with improvements thereon made up $39,544,544,333. Of course, from the latter must be deducted, in applying these sections, all unproductive property and all property whose net yield does not exceed $4,000; but, even with such deductions, it is evident that the income from realty formed a vital part of the scheme for taxation embodied therein. If that be stricken out, and also the income from all invested personal property, bonds, stocks, investments of all kinds, it is obvious that by far the largest part of the anticipated revenue would be eliminated, and this would leave the burden of the tax to be borne by professions, trades, employments, or vocations; and in that way what was intended as a tax on capital would remain, in substance, a tax on occupations and labor. We cannot believe that such was the intention of congress. We do not mean to say that an act laying by apportionment a direct tax on all real estate and personal property, or the income thereof, might not also lay excise taxes on business, privileges, employments, and vocations. But this is not such an act, and the scheme must be considered as a whole.
Your reliance on Nicol v. Ames is misplaced. True, there is language in the decision referring to "privilege", but note that the taxpayers in that case were individuals, not corporations, and that no federal or state license was required to engage in the transactions the taxpayers were involved in. In fact, the taxpayers argued, "It [the tax] is not a 'privilege tax,' within the meaning of that term, because there is no privilege other than that which every man has to transact his own business in his own house or in his own office under such regulations as he may choose to adopt; and such a choice cannot be, in any fair use of the term, a privilege which is subject to taxation."

Although the Court noted that the Chicago Board of Trade (at which the taxpayers conducted business) was a state-chartered corporation, this fact was immaterial to its analysis: "This particular board is incorporated under an act of the legislature of Illinois, though its corporate character does not, in our judgment, form a material considration in the inquiry." Moreover, the Court explicitly stated that a governmental privilege was not required in order for Congress to tax the taxpayers' activities: "Nor is there any doubt that these exchanges facilitate transactions of purchase and sale, and it would seem that such facilities or privileges, even though not granted by the government or by a state, ought nevertheless to be recognized as existing facts, and to be subject to the judgment of congress as fit matters for taxation."

Accordingly, your attempt to extract from Nicol a rule to the effect that the existence of a governmental privilege is a necessary condition for the imposition of an income tax is doomed, as is your implied claim that all excises must involve governmental privileges. As a result, the dictum in Nicol as to the characterization of Springer's receipts is simply a factual description, not an indication that a governmental privilege is a necessary condition to an excise; in fact, the language in the decision explicitly belies any such conclusion.
Springer was a federally licensed attorney the tax was justifiable by taxing the privilege of obtaining and using the license the measure being income. Now before one of you come back and say the Springer court never mentioned any privilege I might add that they didn't mention income from property either.
You continue to try to spead the lie that Springer's federal license was the rationale for the Court's decision; it wasn't, and if you had the least shred of intellectual honesty, you'd acknowledge this fact. The reason Springer's income wasn't mentioned was that it had no bearing on the Court's conclusion that the income tax was in the nature of a duty or excise; consequently, the existence of the license was as immaterial to the decision as was the letter his last name began with.
"Run get the pitcher, get the baby some beer." Rev. Gary Davis
SteveSy

Post by SteveSy »

Famspear wrote:Oh, getting back to tax protester lies: One of the lies is that the statute in Springer taxed only the income of Federal government employees.
Is that a strawman you're constructing there? Did I ever say such a thing....quote it, you are in fact the liar. I guess when you lack the ability to rationally discuss an issue you have to throw some ad hominem attacks.

The 1864 Act imposed the income tax on:
the gains, profits, and income of every person residing in the United States, or of any citizen of the United States residing abroad, whether derived from any kind of property, rents, interest, dividends, or salaries, or from any profession, trade, employment, or vocation, carried on in the United States or elsewhere, or from any other source whatever [ . . . ]
--Revenue Act of 1864, 13 Stat. 223, sec. 116 (June 30, 1864) (bolding added).
Less than 1% paid the income tax....so not "every person residing in the United States" was taxed on their gains, profits and income. Very nice attempt to deceive people by surgical quoting though. The only people who were liable for the income tax were the very wealthy businessmen, everyone else was excluded insuring common workers didn't get taxed.
Last edited by SteveSy on Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Investor

Post by Investor »

Why does this have to devolve into personal attacks. Steve, Famspear did not say that YOU were spreading the lie the Springer tax was only on federal employees, he said that it was a common TP lie.

Is there any way we can keep just one thread from turning into personal attacks, name calling and challenges?

This is why I left the world of Quatloosia for such a long stretch. I was hoping maybe it was a little more civil these days.
Prof
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Post by Prof »

Although the Civil War tax statute called the tax a "license," this is exactly how the Springer court phrased the issue before it:
**7 Was the tax here in question a direct tax? If it was, not having been laid according to the requirements of the Constitution, it must be admitted that the laws imposing it, and the proceedings taken under them by the assessor and collector for its imposition and collection, were all void.
The Springer court did not even mention the word "license."

It then concluded that:

Our conclusions are, that direct taxes, within the meaning of the Constitution, are only capitation taxes, as expressed in that instrument, and taxes on real estate; and that the tax of which the plaintiff in error complains is within the category of an excise or duty. Pomeroy, Const. Law, 177; Pacific Insurance Co. v. Soule, and Scholey v. Rew, supra.

You are correct to point out that Springer was rich, rich, rich. I would suggest that only someone as rich as Springer could have afforded to fight this matter all the way to the Supremes.

TAX ON ORDINARY FOLKS:

There was no attempt or expectation that ordinary folks would be taxed by the income tax, even at the time of the ratification of the 16th. Most Americans had very little taxable income. Most Americans were small farmers, and most had very little cash -- enough to pay the bank, the store, and the land taxes, with enough left over to get through the next year.

Now, we exclude from taxation poor Americans, but most Americans have moved into the middle class (or blue collar class) and have income levels beyond just enough to survive, so the tax burden reaches deeper into the population.

You, who want to cite history, ignore the changes that have come about in the last few hundred years.
Last edited by Prof on Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SteveSy

Post by SteveSy »

Investor wrote:Why does this have to devolve into personal attacks. Steve, Famspear did not say that YOU were spreading the lie the Springer tax was only on federal employees, he said that it was a common TP lie.

Is there any way we can keep just one thread from turning into personal attacks, name calling and challenges?
Where did I call him a name. The implication was that I was lying, where else was a TP quoted saying such a thing in this thread, it has been just you guys and I, no TP has contributed to this thread.
This is why I left the world of Quatloosia for such a long stretch. I was hoping maybe it was a little more civil these days.
I'm all for that.....don't make up stuff or imply something that attacks my character and we have no issue. You won't see me ever calling someone a name simply because they don't agree with me.
SteveSy

Post by SteveSy »

Prof wrote:Although the Civil War tax statute called the tax a "license," this is exactly how the Springer court phrased the issue before it:
**7 Was the tax here in question a direct tax? If it was, not having been laid according to the requirements of the Constitution, it must be admitted that the laws imposing it, and the proceedings taken under them by the assessor and collector for its imposition and collection, were all void.
The Springer court did not even mention the word "license."
True, and they didn't mention income from property either, yet that was found to be a direct tax at a later date wasn't it? The tax laws clearly taxed income from rents yet the Springer case did not claim it was a direct tax. Obviously the only issue the court dealt with was is Springer's income taxable otherwise Pollock would have had to either overrule Springer or conclude a tax on rents was an excise to be consistent. Springer did not hold income in general was taxable by excise.
Last edited by SteveSy on Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Agent Observer

Post by Agent Observer »

Your verbal pixie dust is failing you, Stevesy. When confronted with reality, you immediately start picking apart words like "on" and "derived" looking for some hidden super-secret meaning that you can contort into supporting your theory. It's pretty eveident, and ironic in the following statements:


Stevesy first says (in this thread):
I have issue with judges finding meaning in phrases and sentences that just isn't there.
Then when confronted with the reality that his stance is baseless he says:
"From whatever source derived can only be a limitation.
Geeze, talk about having your cake and eating it too. I mean really, if you cant understand a very clearly stated prepositional phrase, it basically undercuts anything else you have to say, especially when you begin it with "I believe" or "I disagree with the court" and launch into diagramming the sentences for the hidden illuminati meanings. It's pretty funny to watch your denial of reality and nitpicking your way through unwinnable positions. You really have to ask yourself, though, how narcissistic is it to insist that, for the past 100+ years, all the judges and lawyers have been wrong, all the court cases decided against your position are irrelevant, and (also your contention) that the vast majority of Americas (all 360 million people) are too stupid to realize what only Stevesy is truly intelligent enough to understand.

Beyond being narcissistic (to the point of being flat out crazy), you fail to understand that without a system of taxes, the government ceases to exist. What would result is anarchy. Somehow, you seem to believe that commerce and market forces would fill that government void, which is simply fantasy. Without government, there would effectively be no commerce, only 'might makes right.' Then who would you whine to about your philosophical injustices? There would be no police to protect your business, no one to put out a fire in your home, no medical facilities to care for you when you were sick; but hey, that's ok, you'd still have your entire "income," which would amount to whatever you could hide from those who were more powerful and could take whatever they wanted (a group you clearly would not be a part of).
Investor

Post by Investor »

Where did I call him a name. the implication was that I was lying where else was a TP quoted saying such a thing in this thread, it has been just you guys and I, no TP has contributed to this thread
I didn't say you called him a name. I made a general request to all posters and you got defensive as if I singled you out. But, you did call him a liar. For the record, I did not see Famspear's comment as implying you were a lying about the issue to which you took offense. I saw it as clearing up something that he (and I) have seen others say - giving you the opportunity to explain if you bought into such lie.
I'm all for that.....don't make up stuff or imply something that attacks my character and we have no issue.
Again, I wasn't singling you out. The conversation was just heading (needlessly) into a personal fight. I was merely appealing to the collective forum not to let it get there.

Edit: I do realize you get a lot of the stupid name calling sent in your direction, and I don't condone it. That being said, I think you do your share of dishing it out as well.
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Post by Imalawman »

Why don't we just start over. Its getting off track....
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