von Nuthouse at the ANA

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von Nuthouse at the ANA

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

I just got back from helping to run the Boy Scout program at the just-concluded convention of the American Numismatic Association in Boston. A standard feature of these conventions are competitive exhibits; and I was very amused to see that one of the exhibits was on the Liberty Dollar and its related items. Of course, it set out the von Nuthousian view of things, mentioning that von N was in prison (persecuted, natch), without telling people how badly von N has lost in court and how discredited his "alternative money" is. To give proper credit to the exhibitor, the display was very nicely done and took second place in its class.

If I had had more time, I might have looked for Liberty Dollar items on the bourse floor, out of curiosity as to what they are worth on the open market; but instead, I worked on my Barber Quarter and Second Reich minors collections. I also got a key date Canadian nickel for which I've been searching for years.
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Re: von Nuthouse at the ANA

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Pottapaug1938 wrote:[...] I was very amused to see that one of the exhibits was on the Liberty Dollar and its related items. [...] the display was very nicely done and took second place in its class.
The Liberty Dollar has class?
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Re: von Nuthouse at the ANA

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just out of curiosity, what's a 1907 high relief st gaudins bringing these days?
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Re: von Nuthouse at the ANA

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

LPC wrote:
Pottapaug1938 wrote:[...] I was very amused to see that one of the exhibits was on the Liberty Dollar and its related items. [...] the display was very nicely done and took second place in its class.
The Liberty Dollar has class?
Only by accident. I think the class was "exonumia", or non-monetary items.
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Re: von Nuthouse at the ANA

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Gregg wrote:just out of curiosity, what's a 1907 high relief st gaudins bringing these days?
I didn't have time to find out. I could only get to the convention on Saturday; and between my one tour of the bourse floor and my working with the Boy Scouts, there wasn't much time for other things.
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Re: von Nuthouse at the ANA

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Gregg wrote:just out of curiosity, what's a 1907 high relief st gaudins bringing these days?
http://cgi.ebay.com/1907-20-ST-GAUDENS- ... Individual
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Re: von Nuthouse at the ANA

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To get current sight-seen prices for dealer to dealer transactions, anyone can download the coin dealer newsletter for the current week. A High Relief in AU condition is worth around $10K, MS63 around $22K. I was also at the show that featured one of a kind rarities like the 1849 $20 liberty. Appropriately, colonial coins were hot items. Most of those started to become popular when the wampum trade subsided. From the 1620s to around 1650 wampum beads were legal tender between the Colonists and the Indians for debts public and private. A good lecture titled "A Drugg in Time" quoting Bradford who was surprized by the wampum trade.

I was asked by a reporter if it was true that numismatics represent a good investment. I had to explain why for most it is not.
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Re: von Nuthouse at the ANA

Post by Harvester »

Well, coins have proved a very good investment for me. Decision to collect the First Spouse series was fortuitous. And with the US Treasury returning to gold backed currency, well -- I love it. I believe Number Six is referring to the 'Greysheet' from CDN http://www.greysheet.com
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Re: von Nuthouse at the ANA

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For most of the coin dealers who paid $900 plus for their tables at the ANA show, it was not a successful show. There were the exceptions with dealers making big money on buying and selling high end coins. I spoke with a substantial dealer before the pre-ANA show who does a lot of high profit business, much of it cash in good old Massachusetts. He's never been audited. Some of these folks are going to have a little surprize as the technology catches up with their lazy accounting tricks. "You don't have the receipt for your purchase to prove basis of your purchase price? OK, then we'll have to disallow your unsubstantiatable deductions and tax you on the gross".
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Re: von Nuthouse at the ANA

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

So Harvey -- refreshingly reality-free as always -- thinks that the US is going to shift to a gold-backed currency (with gold at such a stable price, y'know)? Check out this excerpt from Wikipedia's article on "Gold Standard":

Prolongation of the Great Depression
Some economic historians, such as UC Berkeley professor Barry Eichengreen, blame the gold standard of the 1920s for prolonging the Great Depression.[9] Others including Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke and Nobel Prize winning economist Milton Friedman lay the blame at the feet of the Federal Reserve [10][11] The gold standard limited the flexibility of central banks monetary policy by limiting their ability to expand the money supply, and thus their ability to lower interest rates. In the US, the Federal Reserve was required by law to have 40% gold backing of its Federal Reserve demand notes, and thus, could not expand the money supply beyond what was allowed by the gold reserves held in their vaults.[12]

In the early 1930s, the Federal Reserve defended the fixed price of dollars in respect to the gold standard by raising interest rates, trying to increase the demand for dollars. Higher interest rates intensified the deflationary pressure on the dollar and reduced investment in U.S. banks. Commercial banks also converted Federal Reserve Notes to gold in 1931, reducing the Federal Reserve's gold reserves, and forcing a corresponding reduction in the amount of Federal Reserve Notes in circulation.[13] This speculative attack on the dollar created a panic in the U.S. banking system. Fearing imminent devaluation of the dollar, many foreign and domestic depositors withdrew funds from U.S. banks to convert them into gold or other assets.[13]

The forced contraction of the money supply caused by people removing funds from the banking system during the bank panics resulted in deflation; and even as nominal interest rates dropped, inflation-adjusted real interest rates remained high, rewarding those that held onto money instead of spending it, causing a further slowdown in the economy.[14] Recovery in the United States was slower than in Britain, in part due to Congressional reluctance to abandon the gold standard and float the U.S. currency as Britain had done. It was not until 1933 when the United States finally decided to abandon the gold standard that the economy began to improve.[15]
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Re: von Nuthouse at the ANA

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Thanks for that analysis, Pottapaug1938. In response the "economic royalists" over at Lew Rockwell I'm sure would have equally strong arguments to back up their "Austrian" economic position.

The unregulated investing and speculating before the Great Depression was surely a big reason for the collapse. A solution to the possibly entropic and inertial economic effects of hard assets, is to require that they be inventoried on tax forms and thoroughly taxed like all other investments. I have had to work to get CPA's to even tax my hard assets. I called up the IRS to get a proper tax rate for profits on hard assets--I was given the wrong answer, they are actually not to be taxed like property but at a higher rate. The fear of paytriots is that if they properly inventory their assets, and list their kids on tax forms, that they will become targets when TSHTF. So they prefer to live in fear. I doubt the IRS has in recent history used tax filing information provided in good faith against the citizen, or the census information for that matter.

The mystery to me is why Boston, one of the U.S. premier cultural and college towns had so few non-collectors visit the "World's Fair of Money" last week. There were mint representatives from around the world, notes and coins stretching back to the beginning of money production. Also, there were good presentations from numismatic experts. I guess coin collecting has an aging demographic.
Last edited by Number Six on Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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'Choose loss rather than shameful gains.' (Chilon Fr. 10. Diels)
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Re: von Nuthouse at the ANA

Post by bmielke »

Number Six wrote:
The mystery to me is why Boston, one of the U.S. premier college towns had so few non-collectors visit the "World's Fair of Money" last week. There were mint representatives from around the world, notes and coins stretching back to the beginning of money production. Also, there were good presentations from numismatic experts. I guess coin collecting has an aging demographic. It must be a lot more fun to play with gadgets.
Was College even back in session last week? They may still be home for the summer.
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Re: von Nuthouse at the ANA

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Number Six wrote:
The mystery to me is why Boston, one of the U.S. premier college towns had so few non-collectors visit the "World's Fair of Money" last week. There were mint representatives from around the world, notes and coins stretching back to the beginning of money production. Also, there were good presentations from numismatic experts. I guess coin collecting has an aging demographic. It must be a lot more fun to play with gadgets.
August is not a good time to get the college crowd to come in for anything; but I do feel that coin collectors are, as you say, an aging demographic. When I was active in my local coin club, up until 10 years ago (my Scouting activities meant that something had to go), I was one of the youngest members, and I was in my late 40s at the time. As a merit badge counselor for the Coin Collecting merit badge, I do see young coin collectors; but too many of the Scouts who come to me seeking the badge have come seeking an easy badge, thinking that they can bring in the bag of coins from their dresser, add a few others from circulation, and call themselves coin collectors. They are shocked to realize that, as the requirements say, their collections must be properly mounted and displayed, and that they must have good coin grading skills.

The problem, too, is the current state of U.S. coinage. The quality, by and large, is terrible. The designs are flat and cartoonish (I was incredibly disappointed in the BSA silver dollars), and feature ugliness like a concave shoulder on the Lincoln cent. The shifting designs on the quarters, cents and dollars prompt only hoarders who hope to make a buck flogging the coins on eBay, or hoard all they can thinking "these don't look familiar, therefore they must be rare, and I can get lots of money someday if I put away as many as possible". There is little political will for changing the designs and coming up with something new and refreshing, for fear that political p*ssing matches will result over who or what is portrayed on the new designs (special interests, of all varieties, running amok), or for saving tons of money and abolishing the $1 bill.

Then, too, I only have to look at my own pocket change. In my boyhood during the 50s and 60s, I remeber D and S mint coins being common among the coins I encountered; but today, a D mint coin is something I rarely encounter. Due to hoarding, I still have not seen all of the 2009 cents, or any of the new 2010 cents. Collecting US coins by date and mint is an exercise most people have long since given up -- and since that's how most US coin collectors get their start, this means that the old collectors will not be relaced by an equal number of young collectors over time. Add to that the fact that speculators and investors have bid up the price of higher-end coins beyond the price range of many true coin collectors; and the sad reality is that many collectors don't see the point of beginning to collect a series of coins, knowing that the higher-end coins are often out of their reach (this is why I collect a lot of foreign coins).

I don't know if you are going to be at the next Bay State show; but if you are, send me a PM with your business name and I'll be sure to look for you.
Last edited by Pottapaug1938 on Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: von Nuthouse at the ANA

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I would also add, as some major dealers have commented, there may be an image problem, not helped by buyers like "cash for gold" and sellers like Goldline who rave about how the price of gold and silver have gone up, while either offering a lot less than the actual value of the coins or selling at inflated prices. You can fleece the sheep only so long before they wise up to the racket.
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Re: von Nuthouse at the ANA

Post by Brandybuck »

While Lew Rockwell is indeed a nutbag, do not tar all of Austrian economics with his ravings.
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Re: von Nuthouse at the ANA

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

... and, courtesy of www.coinflation.com, here is a story about two rocket scientists who stole a coin collection and then cashed in most of it at a coin-counting machine:

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2010/aug ... n-collect/
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Re: von Nuthouse at the ANA

Post by Harvester »

Pottie, hopefully you're not relying on wikipedia as a definitive source. Recall that our very own Jay admits to approximately 1000 wiki edits per year on the subject of income taxation. That speaks to something. My theory is he's either been sent to do it, or, he's very concerned that the truth creeps in and he must constantly edit it out as it springs up.

"Reality-free" eh? Well, we shall soon see who's more grounded in reality. The fat lady is about to sing.

It occurs to me that when it happens Famspear just might shut down Quatloos. Then where should we all meet up? I guess sooey makes sense since many of us already have logins, no?


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Re: von Nuthouse at the ANA

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Warrior on, psycho.
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Re: von Nuthouse at the ANA

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Pottapaug1938 wrote:... and, courtesy of http://www.coinflation.com, here is a story about two rocket scientists who stole a coin collection and then cashed in most of it at a coin-counting machine:

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2010/aug ... n-collect/
Unfortunately there are still buyers of coins who will pay cash who run jewelry shops, coin shops, set up at flea markets and hotels or are listed in directories as such. If sellers look "suspicious" they may get reported but I wouldn't count on it. The thieves may wait for their hot merchandise to fall off the radar of law enforcement which can take quite a while. A Maryland coin dealer was followed from a New England show last fall, probably a transponder put on the underside of his vehicle, and when he pulled off the highway to have dinner with his relative, had his million dollar inventory looted in minutes. The coins and bills were impossible to sell with all the attention law enforcement was spending on the case. He luckily got his inventory back.
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Re: von Nuthouse at the ANA

Post by Gregg »

Number Six wrote:I would also add, as some major dealers have commented, there may be an image problem, not helped by buyers like "cash for gold" and sellers like Goldline who rave about how the price of gold and silver have gone up, while either offering a lot less than the actual value of the coins or selling at inflated prices. You can fleece the sheep only so long before they wise up to the racket.
I remember a particular commercial that ran on late night talk radio a few years ago that every night "Gold has gone up 2,000%" (gold at the time was maybe $400) and I for the life of me couldn not figure out why they thought anyone wouldn't question when exactly Gold was that cheap? Another thing I didn't realize until someone I know sent for the free information was that at least one of these companies isn't pushing bullion gold, but "collectable" coins and they aren't what a decent coin collector would call collectable at all. One of the screaming headline ads in his his little book (a line I still see on TV today) is silver dollars in "uncirculated" to 'Brilliant uncirculated" condidtion. I don't do it enough to know what those terms equate to, but I do know enough to know if you're paying a collectable premium it's best to get MS63 or higher, and I am fairly sure that a lot lower grade coins, things I always knew as "cull dollars" can be called "uncirculated" or 'Near uncirculated" but to a serious collector for most coins that's a non-starter. It would be for me, and I really don't know much beyond I don't consider anything less than an MS63 when I buy one, and who cares what the descriptive term is.
Anyhow, I looked with him through his little booklet with the "super special" prices, and compared it to what had sold recently on E-bay, which for things like this I consider a near perfect market, "the right price will prevail in aggregate" as an economist would say, and the prices were anywhere from 40%-50% higher than what E-bay indicates they were worth. As far as I can tell they were pulling the more perfect Von Nuthaus scam in that they had the same markup but they were US legal tender. I was kind of upset but on reflection it did occur to me that the customer base had a large percentage of people who listen to Glenn Beck or Coast to Coast AM and figured it might be better from letting these people have too much pocket change so fleecing them may be a left handed public service.

But I will have the 1907 HR someday, someday.
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