Sovereign Ex: Participant Tells His Story

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buck09
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Sovereign Ex: Participant Tells His Story

Post by buck09 »

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Sovereign Ex: Participant Tells His Story
David Kanz, imprisoned for 'paper terrorism,' describes how he got into — and out of — the 'sovereign citizens' movement

Interview conducted by Casey Sanchez
Photography by Mark Wallheiser

At the start of 1995, David Kanz was just another guy in Milwaukee who believed in Jesus, celibacy and dawn-to-dusk, seven-day workweeks at Voice of Christian Youth America (VCYA), a fervently anti-abortion, Christian media operation made up of several publications, 13 radio stations and a television outlet. But by the end of the year, Kanz, then 35, had been transformed from a mild-mannered pastor-in-training to a "paper terrorist" who went to prison for filing a $100 million bogus lien against a Planned Parenthood attorney.

Guiding this metamorphosis, Kanz says now, was Kanz's supervisor at VCYA, Gene Zimmerman, who Kanz revered as a surrogate father. Zimmerman spent part of the summer of 1995 at Justus Township, the armed compound of the Montana Freemen, an antigovernment "Christian Patriot" group based near Jordan, Mont. The Montana Freemen rejected the authority of the U.S. government, declaring themselves "sovereign citizens," and attempted to set up their own government. Zimmerman attended a school run by the group where a mix of anti-abortion extremists, tax protesters, Christian Patriots and other antigovernment types learned how to manufacture and file bogus property liens, bank drafts, arrest warrants and other phony documents commonly deployed by sovereign-citizen true believers.

When Zimmerman returned to Milwaukee, he formed the National Civil Liberties Research Foundation (NCLRF), a legal advocacy group that espouses and offers seminars in sovereign-citizen tactics. He made Kanz its chief officer. VCYA at the time was being sued for defamation by Planned Parenthood attorney Catherine Doyle, the sister of current Milwaukee Gov. Jim Doyle, who was then Wisconsin's attorney general.

According to Kanz, Zimmerman directed him to launch a sovereign-citizen counterattack on Catherine Doyle that included drafting and filing a bogus lien against her for $100 million.

Eventually, Kanz was convicted of forgery and criminal slander of title and served two years in prison. Now, he's speaking out against the resurgent sovereign citizens movement and living openly as a gay man. Both actions put him in the crosshairs of his former allies, some of whom are literally praying for his death. Their wrath is further inflamed by the ongoing legal battle between Kanz and Zimmerman's other former acolytes over control of the National Civil Liberties Research Foundation and the approximately $200,000 in its coffers. That battle erupted after Zimmerman died in 2007 and it turned out that Kanz was never officially removed as an NCLRF corporate officer.

How did the conflict between Catherine Doyle and the Voice of Christian Youth America begin?
A couple of years prior to my arrival at VCYA, she had started a defamation lawsuit because VCYA had reported that she had kicked an 8-year-old girl in the face outside an abortion clinic where the girl and her parents were part of a protest blockade. It wasn't true. Even so, they talked about it [on the air] for weeks and weeks. From what I gathered, Cathy Doyle warned them if they didn't stop she was going to sue them. Well, they didn't stop because they believed that Cathy Doyle, and more particularly her brother, were literally the devil incarnate.

Why?
Because they [the Doyles] were accessories to murder as far as Vic Eliason [VCYA's founder and leader] and VCYA were concerned. They were advocates of a woman's right to choose, so they were murderers, killers, baby killers.

Matthew Trewhella with Missionaries to the Preborn was close to Vic, and Trewhella had a large hand in keeping that mindset stimulated. [Editor's note: In 1994, Trewhella called on anti-abortion churches to form armed militias]. Trewhella went full-bore in defending [anti-abortion double murderer] Paul Hill right after Hill shot a doctor in the face with a shotgun in Pensacola [Fla.]. Trewhella believed what Paul Hill did is what everyone should do. His involvement with VCYA points to how it was a haven for the extreme right, politically. And he's still on their radio programs.

After Gene Zimmerman returned from the Montana Freemen compound, how did he and Vic Eliason describe the sovereign-citizen "true bill" strategy to you?
They told me it was a non-judicial procedure that anyone could use to tie up people's assets and neutralize a political opponent of any kind. They said, "Dave, it's a civil process. There's nothing criminal about it." I was a believer. Fully persuaded. Plus they were bemoaning the fact that if they didn't stop Cathy Doyle and her lawsuit, which was going badly for them, she was going to wind up owning their operation.

So when they portrayed what they wanted me to do as being something so high and meritorious as saving VCYA, that was it for me. We were taught to sacrifice our life for the truth if need be, so I was in. They said I was ideal for the situation because I didn't have a house or a family or a lot of money, so there wasn't much for anyone to come after in a civil lawsuit. They repeatedly dismissed the notion that I could ever be prosecuted criminally. Even after criminal charges were filed, I was continuously told by [Vic and Gene], "Oh, it's a bluff, it's a scare tactic, don't worry about it." [Editor's note: Contacted by the Intelligence Report, Eliason categorically denied any involvement in Kanz's sovereign-citizen activities. "That is an absolute lie," he said. "According to what we found, David has a real problem with truth."]

What advice did Zimmerman have for you once you were indicted for forgery?
Zimmerman was a believer in representing yourself pro se [without a lawyer in court proceedings]. It's what he taught in his seminars: The court is your enemy. The judge is your enemy. So you have to represent yourself. This is the Christian Patriot teaching, an inversion of the way things are supposed to be, because the government is [said to be] corrupt and anti-Christian and out to get us. This was the mindset taught by Zimmerman and the Christian Patriots, that the only way we're going to take back our country is to fight within the legal system and flip it on its head. That was the whole intent.

After I was charged, it was all I could to even get time with him [Zimmerman]. The advice he did give me, I now know it had nothing to do with criminal procedure, it was all civil law, so it was basically irrelevant to the situation. But it's all that Zimmerman knew. I found myself at the Marquette [University] Law Library [in Milwaukee], trying to understand procedure, trying to understand what to do next. I was pissed off, totally, totally, after criminal charges were filed. I didn't sleep. I didn't work.

Did anyone from VCYA go to court with you?
No. I was alone. All I got from them was, "Good job, David, have faith, keep going. God will save you because you're standing up for what's right and Catherine Doyle is a killer." It was a totally anti-intellectual approach.

Some of your filings during the trial referenced the gold fringe on the American flag in the courtroom as evidence of the court's illegitimacy. What was that all about?
The issue with the flag, according to some of the streams of Patriot thought, is this: An American flag with gold fringe on it is not actually a [national] flag, but military colors. The teaching is that the federal government has flipped the relationship between states and the federal government. The states created the federal government but now the federal government claims authority over the states via martial law, symbolized by the military colors — an American flag with gold fringe — which represents an authority that a true Patriot [or sovereign citizen] refuses to recognize. [Editor's note: Gold-fringed flags, which are present in most American courtrooms, are not in fact military or admiralty flags, as Patriots insist.] So I was probably asking that it be removed from the courtroom or some other nonsense.

How did you respond when the jury found you guilty?
I went into shock. They handcuffed and took me through a tunnel into the Sheriff's Department, where I was processed. And I was numb. Probably not catatonic, not unresponsive, but pretty close. For the first two weeks, I basically took food when they brought food in and I slept. I was in a jail cell made for 12; we had 16 people so I was on the floor on a mattress. I was in personal crisis. It was very difficult.

But then after you got out of prison in 1998, you went back to working for VCYA. Why?
I was desperate, and Vic approached me. It was pure guilt on his part. He always told me, "We'll take care of you, don't worry," and the money I was paid [at VCYA] was not bad. A lot better than I was making as a convicted felon. [Editor's note: Eliason confirmed that he personally rehired Kanz. He did so, he said, "to give somebody a chance to get their life straightened out."]

Did you ever ask for an apology?
A few years down the road, I still had some things I wanted to talk to [Vic] about. I said, "You know, I went to prison for you." He questioned my loyalty at that point. I said, "Question my loyalty? I went to prison for you. I committed perjury for you. How could you question my loyalty?" And that's when he terminated me [a second time]. It would have been in 2002. [Editor's note: Eliason denied this exchange occurred. He said he fired Kanz because he'd come to question Kanz' spiritual values and because other employees reported to him that Kanz was "planning to take over" the VCYA.]

Did you ever seek any kind of revenge?
Well, the Department of Justice approached me in 2003. They wanted me to wear a wire and go talk to Zimmerman. And I refused. I was still trapped in the mindset of defending him.

That same day I refused to wear the wire, I went to his office and told him about the investigation. He said, "Well, you should feel privileged, Dave." I said, "I'm not feeling really privileged right now." He said, "Well, you do realize you are a guinea pig and you should feel privileged to be one?" That about knocked me out of my chair. I said, "Guinea pig?" And I let loose with a tirade of expletives. I said, "You're telling me I'm a guinea pig? All along, you pretended you knew what you were doing but it was actually an experiment!" I said, "I may have been someone's guinea pig but I'm not going to be one anymore."

So was that what finally pushed you out of the Christian Patriot movement?
It probably also had a lot to do with some other realizations I came to about myself. From the time I was 19 until I left Wisconsin, I was basically celibate, and I always had to deal with suspicions [about my sexuality from others in the movement]. I always played it off as I didn't have time for a relationship. That wasn't the truth. The truth was I didn't want a relationship with a woman. And the other option wasn't possible.

When I finally admitted to myself who and what I am, it opened the floodgates. … I had lived my life in craven fear that someone would find out about my sexuality. With good reason, I think, because the people I was involved with prayed for gay people to be killed by God. And I lived in that. I don't know how I did it, honestly or why, but the words that came to my mind that night when I finally just opened the door were, "I can't pretend anymore." I couldn't maintain that charade anymore. I was exhausted and miserable and a felon.

How did your former associates react to you coming out?
When the people in Wisconsin [involved in the NCLRF lawsuit] found out about me in March of this year, they actually conducted a church service at which a friend of mine was in attendance and literally prayed that God would kill me because I was a flaming queer.

Zimmerman was a bridge between the fundamentalist Christian world and the Patriot movement. Now that he's dead, is the Voice of Christian Youth America still involved in antigovernment extremism, as far as you know?
They're out of the Patriot stuff, but they're still involved in the abortion stuff and the attacks against gays. Standard operating procedure when I was there was, whenever donations are down, talk about two subjects: abortion and homosexuals. It still is. Their last fundraiser in May of this year, they talked about nothing but abortion and gays.

What's your advice to those tempted to take on the legal system with sovereign-citizen methods?
Take it from someone who knows and has experienced it. You will go to prison and you will lose your businesses.

Are you willing to risk that to experiment with so-called "legal proceedings" that have proven to be false? When Eugene Zimmerman looked at me and said I was a guinea pig, my world came crashing down. And the first thought that came into my head was what I fool I had been. I thought, "David, you really don't have a grasp on reality. Something is wrong here." It shook me pretty badly. I began to question everything and that probably is a good thing. And then along comes the gay thing. And that's nuclear. Talk about a revamp of my thinking.


Intelligence Report
Spring 2009
Related suit: http://www.wisbar.org/res/sup/1998/96-0680.htm
I’ll help them get more power at the Fed. - Ron Paul
Blup

Re: Sovereign Ex: Participant Tells His Story

Post by Blup »

poor stupid bastard. A friend of mine is in the patriot movement and is just about as wacked out as that guy.

Very strange.
dckanz1

Re: Sovereign Ex: Participant Tells His Story

Post by dckanz1 »

Well,

I am not stupid.

I am not a bastard. My mother and father are still alive and well.

One has to understand the brainwashing that goes on with the threat of eternal fire behind it...

david kanz
Brandybuck

Re: Sovereign Ex: Participant Tells His Story

Post by Brandybuck »

I have never understood people who hate like that calling themselves Christian. Regardless of your stance on abortion, you are commanded to love and not kill. To pray for someone else's death is not Christian, it is satanic.
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Re: Sovereign Ex: Participant Tells His Story

Post by LPC »

dckanz1 wrote:Well,

I am not stupid.

I am not a bastard. My mother and father are still alive and well.
You may be confusing "bastard" with "orphan." Two different concepts.

(Although at common law a bastard legally had neither a father nor a mother. But that's a legal fiction. We all know that bastards don't crawl out from under cabbage leaves.)
Dan Evans
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(And author of the Tax Protester FAQ: evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html)
"Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
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Re: Sovereign Ex: Participant Tells His Story

Post by LPC »

Brandybuck wrote:I have never understood people who hate like that calling themselves Christian.
I think that a lot of people who call themselves "Christian" have never actually read any of the reports (we call them "gospels") of what Christ said.

What's also weird are the people who think that the words of the Old Testament should be taken literally, such as the idea that the earth was created in seven days, but that what Jesus said in the New Testament does *not* need to be taken literally, so that we do not really need to love our enemies.

When you read some of the things that Jesus is reported to have said, and think about the implications of what he was saying, it really is rather breathtaking in its radicalism.
Dan Evans
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(And author of the Tax Protester FAQ: evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html)
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Re: Sovereign Ex: Participant Tells His Story

Post by Gregg »

Throughout history most of the most evil people have also been the most religious.
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Re: Sovereign Ex: Participant Tells His Story

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

CaptainKickback wrote:
Gregg wrote:Throughout history most of the most evil people have also been the most religious.
Or made themselves into "false idols" of worship and adulation through cults of personality. Like Mao, Castro, Stalin, Hitler, to name a few of the worst.
Kim Il-Sung and Kim Jong-Il (and their wannabe, Kim Jong-Un) deserve a place there, too.
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Re: Sovereign Ex: Participant Tells His Story

Post by LPC »

Gregg wrote:Throughout history most of the most evil people have also been the most religious.
I would say "pious" or "sanctimonious" and not "religious," because I think that there's a difference.
Dan Evans
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(And author of the Tax Protester FAQ: evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html)
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Re: Sovereign Ex: Participant Tells His Story

Post by Gregg »

LPC wrote:
Gregg wrote:Throughout history most of the most evil people have also been the most religious.
I would say "pious" or "sanctimonious" and not "religious," because I think that there's a difference.
That's a good point I would be hard pressed to not agree with.
The other examples are all from the more or less recent past, but if you go back to the middle ages, one of the top catagories for truely dispicable leaders would be "Popes" and even more numerous though less well known "Bishops". I have many times thought that the current radical islamic movement resembles in many ways the Catholic Church around the end of the 12 century. When the first Crusaders invaded Jeruselum, the Islamic clergy who at the time controlled the city were very tolerant of the Jews and Christians who lived there, and it was a peaceful enough place. It wasn't until the Pope needed a war to divert attention elsewhere and called for Europe to send out it's second sons, unemployed lesser nobles and empty out the jails and go run the heathens from the Holy Land that it became a problem. A problem we're still trying to fix.
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Re: Sovereign Ex: Participant Tells His Story

Post by GlimDropper »

First off, let me reiterate CaptainKickback's welcome to dckanz1. Mr.Kanz, the focus here, by and large is a factual refutation of the arguments the sovereign gurus sell. It is very easy to refute these arguments on a point for point factual basis, so much so that it almost obscures the bigger issue, that being people don't believe sovereign patriot arguments because of facts but almost rather despite them.

I come from a "faith based" background and several of the people I love never really learned more than the most basic critical thinking skills. After all, if you're a good person and if all the people you deal with are good people, being critical is almost a mental illness or perhaps even worse, a sin. The ugly truth of course being that those who value blind faith as a cardinal virtue are the most susceptible to being manipulated by those who only pretend to be as faithful, or as blind.

I may state these ideas poorly or in terms other than how you identify them as but I suspect you understand what I'm saying. The sovereign gurus don't traffic in fact but rather in some species of faith. If a simple recitation of legal precedents and historical fact could dispel their sales pitch this argument would have been over decades ago. David, you understand from personal experience the "why's" of patriot mythology when we're still grasping the "what's." I for one would thank you for anything you might choose to share with us. Either or anyway, I do wish you well.
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Re: Sovereign Ex: Participant Tells His Story

Post by wserra »

On-target post, GD.

We all - surely including me - would do well to remember to reserve the ridicule for those who know better, especially the promoters. If a Bork shows up, or someone pushing Hendrickson's crap, or one of the kinds of sponsors of frauds who seem to appear most often in the MLM forum, they're fair game. But the victims are not.

Not that that's what happened here. In context, I read the phrase "poor stupid bastard" generally as one of pity, not abuse. The poster had no way of knowing that the target would show up here, and if s/he had known, would likely have chosen different words.

Welcome to Q, David.
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Brandybuck

Re: Sovereign Ex: Participant Tells His Story

Post by Brandybuck »

GlimDropper wrote:First off, let me reiterate CaptainKickback's welcome to dckanz1. Mr.Kanz, the focus here, by and large is a factual refutation of the arguments the sovereign gurus sell. It is very easy to refute these arguments on a point for point factual basis, so much so that it almost obscures the bigger issue, that being people don't believe sovereign patriot arguments because of facts but almost rather despite them.
This is true. My dear mother (whom I love dearly) falls into this camp. She believes anything written at WorldNutDaily as being the truth, simply because "they are good Christian people". When I presented to her several facts demonstrating Obama's citizenship, she replied with the straightest face you can imagine, "but I don't want him to be president!".

Facts have nothing to do with this mindset. They are only obstacles that get in the way of the preferred belief. All of the evidence hunting and legalistic speke and the pseudo-scientific posturing only exist to put an air of rationality on the nuttiness. It takes a great shock to get through that mindest. Unfortunately the shock that can get some folks to see the light can also send others in deeper.
Blup

Re: Sovereign Ex: Participant Tells His Story

Post by Blup »

Yeah sorry about that buddy, didn't mean to impugn your intelligence or familial history. It was my way of suggesting that you were taken advantage of due to your relative lack of.. shall we say... analytical sophistication.