What if?

[JamesVincent]

I had a thought earlier. What if we let all the 14th people have what they wish? Whether their tax people, troofers whatever. We let them roll back to before the 14th amendment. They are sovereign citizens of the state they chose to reside in and no longer owe federal taxes. They no longer have the federal man watching over them. When we do this we make it clear that they have no more federal involvement in their lives. We give them a list, something like this:

1. You no longer owe federal taxes. However, since states were allowed taxation in the constitution from the get go, you owe state taxes. And since several states base their taxes off of what the IRS decides your taxes are, you still have to file so the state can decide what your taxes are.

2. Any federal institution or federally funded institution is no longer available to you. Examples:
a. The interstate system was built using federal funds and created by a federal order after the 14th amendment, so you can no longer drive on an interstate. Most states use federal funds to build and repair their intra-state system so you can no longer drive on them either. The driving point is moot anyway because of
b. The domestic automobile manufacturers just received a gazillion dollars in bailout money from the federal government, so you can no longer buy or own a domestic vehicle. All imports are tariffed and inspected by the federal government through one of its agencies to insure that they meet federal codes for safety so you can no longer own or buy an imported vehicle. You may use or own a vehicle that existed before any federal regulations but I dont think horse and buggys are regulated anywhere.
c. All banks in the United States are off-limits also. Not only did the banks receive a huge bailout from the federal government not too long ago, the accounts themselves are insured through the FDIC which you can no longer use.
d. Every hospital in the country has used or been granted federal monies at one point or another to get into, continue, or modify operation so they are also off-limits. You can see a private doctor as long as he has never received federal monies in any way, through student loans, grants, etc or if s/he is federally licensed to practice. Which would still leaving you looking for medicine that has not been funded through federal monies, which I am not aware of any since all pharmaceutical companies receive huge grants for the development and testing of new drugs.
e. You may shop where ever you wish as long as the company you shop at has never received federal monies of any type. Or the manufacturer. Or the distributor. Or... you get the picture.
f. You will have to grow your own food since all food sold in the United States through a licensed store must meet FDA requirements and are checked by the FDA randomly. You may have a garden and you may hunt, but you will have to hunt when the state you live in says you can since that is a state law, not a federal law. But before you go hunting, remember to check that your weapon of choice has never been federally financed in any way or you could be arrested by state officials.
g. You no longer have any protection through a federally funded or assisted police department or fire department. So, literally, if you were on fire and a police officer pissed on you to put you out, another police officer would have to arrest him for aiding you. Same with the fire department. You may be able to find ones that have never been funded by the federal government, but they wouldnt be able to respond to you. Why? How are you going to call them when (a) all the phones are federally regulated to some degree, including cell phones and so are the switchboards that they answer on so you cannot use them or (b) all the vehicles they use to respond with fall not only example b. but are also further regulated since they are emergency vehicles. And their radios are regulated through the FCC, also another federal agency, hence the F.
h. If you a minority, you no longer qualify to be a citizen of any state since the 14th amendment is what gave you citizenship rights to start with. The only people to have any rights under the original constitution were white males.
i. You may not have electricity in your home since all power companies were started and/or maintained with federal funds. You may construct some type of device to generate electricity as long as it does not break any other example, such as the wire itself being federally regulated.
j. You may build your own home as long as it meets state codes, but you may not purchase an already existing home since they have to meet a certain amount of federal codes and more than likely were financed at some point through the federal government.
k. You are no longer allowed to use any currency used by the federal government. If you can find a store not covered by the above examples, you may use a bartering style of system as long as the store owner allows.


I think that about covers everything I can think of. If any others can think of something I missed plus feel free to comment so we can get this ratified.

[JamesVincent]

I did have power companies in there but not sewer or water since its possible they may be state controlled. And telephones were in there too, including cell phones and radios were mentioned also.

[Judge Roy Bean]

Actually, I believe you'd be surprised how many people live off (and how far off) the sociopolitical, if not the technological 'grid'.

Granted, some of them suppose they are further off than they really are, but believe me, there are people who just don't care what happens beyond the sights of their rifles.

The promoters of schemes know how to tap into them as well as the much larger market of wannabees.

[JamesVincent]

Judge, I spent a good chunk of my growing years staying at my grandfathers house, which had no electricity or running water. Had a well pump on the front porch and wood stove for heat and cooking in the kitchen. It was one of the original style West Virginia farmhouses built in the early 1800s. My grandfather wouldnt have had it any other way and loved it there. I had an uncle who was dead set on never paying any taxes so after he left the Army after WWII he did jobs doing carpentry where ever someone would pay him cash and spent the most of his life living in the custom built camper top he built on the back of his 1958 Chevy one ton pickup, the only new vehicle he ever owned. Again, he wouldnt have had it any other way. The only technological thing either of them ever owned were battery operated short wave receivers.

But I guarantee that neither one of them would have been on the internet or anywhere else telling everyone what was owed them.

[LPC]

I had a thought earlier. What if we let all the 14th people have what they wish? Whether their tax people, troofers whatever. We let them roll back to before the 14th amendment. They are sovereign citizens of the state they chose to reside in and no longer owe federal taxes.

You're talking about "rolling back" to a time that never existed.

Even before the adoption of the 14th Amendment, the citizens of the states were subject to federal taxes. See, e.g., Hylton v. United States, 3 U.S. 171 (1796), affirming the constitutionality of a excise imposed on a citizen of Virginia for the ownership of carriages held for personal use. Of the four Supreme Court justices who decided the case, two were members of the convention of 1787 that wrote the Constitution, and one was a member of a state convention that ratified the Constitution.

[JamesVincent]

LPC, I know that and you know that and the government knows that. The people that the thread was directed at seems to have forgotten or ignore that so like I said, give them what they want.

[Gregg]

Screw that, they're still breathing the air the EPA cleaned up for them. Put 'em on a boat and drop 'em off on Gilligan's Island.

[JamesVincent]

You know what Gregg? Good damn point. Totally forgot that one.

l. You are not allowed to breathe American air since the EPA regulates emissions and the federal government has spent a lot of money on cleaning it up.

[silversopp]

If we chose to opt out of the federal taxation, would we also get a refund of all of our tax dollars that were spent buying votes, on pork projects, on useless scientific studies (my favorite one has a headline: "Study show teenage pregnancy rates drop significantly by age 25"), on funding failed federal projects, social engineering, and any other mischief that we don't know about?

Not all tax dollars are used wisely or morally.

[bmielke]

If we chose to opt out of the federal taxation, would we also get a refund of all of our tax dollars that were spent buying votes, on pork projects, on useless scientific studies (my favorite one has a headline: "Study show teenage pregnancy rates drop significantly by age 25"), on funding failed federal projects, social engineering, and any other mischief that we don't know about?

Not all tax dollars are used wisely or morally.

I doubt one individuals contribution to pork projects is significant enough to garner much of a refund.

[silversopp]

I doubt one individuals contribution to pork projects is significant enough to garner much of a refund.

Good point...but to be fair the proposal is to exclude the entire interstate highway system from the person who opts out, not just the 100 feet his individual taxes would have supported.

[notorial dissent]

I have to go along with LPC here, whether or not these wasteoids want to claim “Federal” citizenship, they would still be subject to all the State and Federal taxes and laws that currently exist. If they are working within the United States they are subject to the income taxes then existing, just as are any foreign nationals living and working here. They owe tax on the portion of their income earned within the United States. I do not see, and have never seen what is supposed to be so magical about being a State Citizen. You are subject to whatever laws exist in the state you live in, as well as the Federal laws that apply, and this has always been the same regardless of the 14th or not.

They can declaim US citizenship for so called State citizenship all they want, but that does not relive them of the responsibilities to the Federal laws in place at the time, that simply defies logic.

I will also take the contrarian view here in that I don’t believe that the 14th altered citizenship to any great degree, I still believe it was controlled by federal statute as there were certainly laws in place for naturalization and citizenship at the time which presupposes that the Fed certainly thought they were the controlling party in that function. What the 14th did do was extend/clarify the born here part to include the former slaves so that they could not be excluded by the states claiming they were not covered, and it extended all Federal rights to all the inhabitants of the US which had never been done before. This I think was the bigger change as it affected everyone.