response to "The Secret," and "think positive" systems....

[Green Lantern]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo

Smile or Die!

[Evil Squirrel Overlord]

She lost me at the refrigerator and her whining about quantum physics.

As a person who works with the unemployed on getting them retrained, gotta say that the people with the positive outlook are more likely to get good service and stand out. I understand the frustrations people are going through, but while positive thinking won't give you a million dollars alone, it will motivate you more than getting up to face a futile day. Why bother trying to roll that Promethian boulder up the mountain looking for a job if you don't think you will find one?

On her "two problems with positive thinking":
1) Delusional Thinking. She begins by entering a strawman about the 2007(wtf?) financial crisis. (Like the quantum physics digression.) And she negates the psychological (and physiological) impact that positive thinking has on the individual and the people that person comes into contact with. (The social aspect.) She also claims that people are being told that their unemployment situation is all in their heads. This is simply not true. (Sans a couple of pundits.)
2) After rambling on about Bush, Iraq, Soviets, Theism she fails to state her second point.

I found this video to be rubbish.

[Green Lantern]

She lost me at the refrigerator and her whining about quantum physics.

She was commenting on those who try to use their understanding of "quantum physics" to sell their ideas that people can change the world (i.e. that observing something changes it as in the light as a particle/wave experiments. She used this to show how the "positive thought" industry moves on once their pet theories are questioned. I didn't think shared cared about quantum physics beyond that---did I miss something?

As a person who works with the unemployed on getting them retrained, gotta say that the people with the positive outlook are more likely to get good service and stand out.

I'd like to believe this, too, but do you have any data showing that "attitudes" impact re-employment prospects beyond finding the strength to get out of bed and get going?

On her "two problems with positive thinking":
1) Delusional Thinking. She begins by entering a strawman about the 2007(wtf?) financial crisis. (Like the quantum physics digression.) And she negates the psychological (and physiological) impact that positive thinking has on the individual and the people that person comes into contact with. (The social aspect.) She also claims that people are being told that their unemployment situation is all in their heads. This is simply not true. (Sans a couple of pundits.)
2) After rambling on about Bush, Iraq, Soviets, Theism she fails to state her second point.

I found this video to be rubbish.

Her second point seemed to be that believing something doesn't make it true. Rubbish? I don't think so, although apparently not stated so that everyone understands. Perhaps her contention that merely pumping people up amounts to immorality is offensive to you? I had the impression that her real problem was with the "positive thought industry" as a cure for our unemployment problems. BTW, I don't think her piece in any way implies that "retraining" as such is a problem. Carry on!

[Deep Knight]

Don't you know that quantum physics has PROVEN that wishing for something makes it real. I recall Schrödinger's famous "pony for Christmas" thought experiment.

[co-shoot]

I really liked the video, I thought she did a great job of applying this to science itself to deduce the most simple science theory of reality into a charted philosophy..

[ClemIsBack]

I'm thinking positive ... $330,000,000 is coming my way tonight at 11pm EST

[Evil Squirrel Overlord]

She lost me at the refrigerator and her whining about quantum physics.

She was commenting on those who try to use their understanding of "quantum physics" to sell their ideas that people can change the world (i.e. that observing something changes it as in the light as a particle/wave experiments.

Really? Then why doesn't she address her argument directly to positive thinking rather than the vague "THEM"? I guess that is my point. She is painting with a wide brush.

She used this to show how the "positive thought" industry moves on once their pet theories are questioned. I didn't think shared cared about quantum physics beyond that---did I miss something?

I never new there was a "positive thought" industry. Nor does her premise and introduction even address one. Her opening argument is that downtrodden people should not be told to think and act positively by support and networking groups. I mean what are support groups there to do? Shout insults at one another? Should you show up to a networking group with a negative attitude that it will a total waste of time? These places are not there to tell you all hope is lost and that despair and desperation are the correct reactions (although they are understandable). They exist to encourage people. Prolonged unemployment sucks, and it is a roller coaster of emotion. Surprisingly a significant number of people do say that being laid off was a positive thing, a growth opportunity as it shook them out of complacency and allowed them to find more fulfilling work (myself included), but in today's prolonged recession it might not be the message to convey to most people. That doesn't change the fact that it does happen.

She quickly moves on to introduce the strawman that the message people are being given in these groups is that knowledge, skills and abilities do not matter, only positive attitude. I know of no legitimate organization or networking group that would advocate this. Certainly no professional leading such groups. From this point she begins to ramble on about America the corporate world, introduces an equivocation about the physical property magnetism and the personality trait of "magnetism", a undefined "they" introducing quantum physics to "mock all of science", and finally that you can change the physical world with your thoughts (which is Scientology, not psychology). Do you see the problem I am having with her video? She is using fallacies and hyperbolas to appeal to emotion. Has she mentioned any specific group or though system? Has she explored any specific theories?

I am now at 3:29 in the video, when she introduces her first point.

As a person who works with the unemployed on getting them retrained, gotta say that the people with the positive outlook are more likely to get good service and stand out.

I'd like to believe this, too, but do you have any data showing that "attitudes" impact re-employment prospects beyond finding the strength to get out of bed and get going? [/quote]

Did I state that these people with positive attitudes independent of knowledge skills and abilities will automatically get hired? I know personally that a negative attitudes in a job interview generally kill hopes of employment. Let's take this morning. We received an email from some woman who began, "I am depressed, going through a divorce, unemployed, without a car and you are going to do something for me". Granted that none of that will matter to what we do, but it does set the tone based upon negative experiences with similar individuals. Frankly while we understand a person's need to vent, we are here to develop forward looking plans of action but there are no guarantees the program will be right for them. "I can't" or "I won't" will kill their prospects as they convey an aura of failure to us. The less qualified person saying, "I'll do my best let's give it a try" invests us in their success.

Google scholar has a wealth of studies on the effects of positive attitude and coping with unemployment.
Patton, W. and Donohue, R. (1998), Coping with long-term unemployment. Journal of Community & Applied Social Psychology, 8: 331–343. doi: 10.1002/(SICI)1099-1298(1998090)8:5<331::AID-CASP456>3.0.CO;2-6

Amundson and Borgen (1987) examined factors identifed as being helpful or hindering during
unemployment. Hindering factors included: job rejection, fnancial pressures, unpro-
ductive contacts with government employment agency, an unknown or negative
future, ineffective job search activities, negative thinking (negative self-messages) and
spouse or family problems. Conversely, the helping factors included: support from
family, support from friends, positive thinking (positive self-messages), job search
support groups, and career guidance. Amundson and Borgen also suggested that by
providing themselves with positive self-messages, reframing concepts of self-worth,
and rethinking career paths many participants were able to manage stress asso-
ciated with unemployment most effectively. Altering negative cognitions was also a
strategy reported by Caplan et al. (1989).

On attitude and employment;
Coping with unemployment--A contribution to the understanding of women's unemployment
Social Science & Medicine, Volume 25, Issue 2, 1987, Pages 163-171
Bengt Starrin, Gerry Larsson

Abstract

The aim of this paper was to contribute to the understanding of women's unemployment with emphasis on individual reactions in terms of their significance and context. The study was carried out within the methodological tradition of grounded theory. Thirty-six unemployed women were interviewed. The reactions to unemployment were seen in relation to two, systematically generated core variables: ‘the relation to wage labour’ and ‘the relation to alternative activities’. Four different groups of unemployed were identified in light of their relations to these two core variables. They were called ‘the give-uppers’, ‘the clenchers’, ‘the refocusers’ and ‘the ambivalents’. Serious effects of unemployment were found among the give-uppers and the clenchers. The refocusers on the other hand, enjoyed their lives and had replaced the loss of work with other meaningful activities.

On her "two problems with positive thinking":
1) Delusional Thinking. She begins by entering a strawman about the 2007(wtf?) financial crisis. (Like the quantum physics digression.) And she negates the psychological (and physiological) impact that positive thinking has on the individual and the people that person comes into contact with. (The social aspect.) She also claims that people are being told that their unemployment situation is all in their heads. This is simply not true. (Sans a couple of pundits.)
2) After rambling on about Bush, Iraq, Soviets, Theism she fails to state her second point.

I found this video to be rubbish.

Her second point seemed to be that believing something doesn't make it true.[/quote]She is not very clear at to what the point is. It also could be her "it is cruel" to tell people it is all in their heads. Like I said, I'm not sure where she comes up with this notion that this attitude is common in networking and support groups.

Rubbish? I don't think so, although apparently not stated so that everyone understands. Perhaps her contention that merely pumping people up amounts to immorality is offensive to you?

Immorality? WTF? I'm not talking about pumping people up to high levels, I am talking about helping to foster some hope. Alian Bombard noticed that healthy people stranded in life rafts on the ocean typically survived 3 days or less. There was no physiological reason why they were dying so soon. The only thing he could account this death toll to was despair.

I had the impression that her real problem was with the "positive thought industry" as a cure for our unemployment problems. BTW, I don't think her piece in any way implies that "retraining" as such is a problem. Carry on!

I still don't know what you mean by "positive thought industry" since in the beginning she attacks networking groups and support networks. Is their some grand conspiracy I am missing?

I guess my point is that the video is a rambling rant attacking several different strawmen.

[JamesVincent]

Im going to have to agree with ESO on this one. Not only for the reasons, and very good ones they were, he stated but also that she missed or ignored the whole point of most of the "positive thinking" programs out there. The point is that by switching your attitude from a negative one to a positive one increases the chances of you being able to do anything positive in life. Lets take dating as an example. If you are constantly negative and gloomy, do you think the opposite sex is going to find you attractive, unless they themselves are negatively oriented? If you do "attract" another negative person, did you improve your life, or make it even worse? However, a person with a positive attitude, even if they have problems, has a much better chance of attracting another positive person into their life and making a positive jump in their life.

The biggest part of "The Secret" was that like attracts like and if you are positive, you attract positive people to you, which I dont think anyone can really argue against. You dont attract positive people through a negative attitude. By attracting other positive people to you, the group as a whole grows stronger and you get more benefits from that stronger group. If you are a computer tech and you start attracting other positive people to you it can mean getting a better job you may not neccesarily have the background for, but with a good attitude and some connections, you may be able to get it.

The positive attitude itself and by itself may not solve the worlds problems for you, but it creates the basis for a creation that a negative attitude cannot create. Like ESO said, an employer will be exponentially more likely to hire a positive person than a negative person. As someone whos hired people before and been hired before, I would have to agree with that 100% and I dont see a way to argue against it. If you go into an interview with a smile and good words, you have a better chance of getting that job then if you go in with gloom and doom and mumbling.

Something else mentioned in "The Secret" that this lady totally neglected to mention was that you not only have to have the positive thoughts, you have to open yourself up to opportunity and prepare yourself for change for you to be able to do anything. The positive thoughts by themselves do not get you all that you desire, but the desire and drive to do something and the willingness to change or work towards that goal do get get you further than you would without it. By invisioning where you want to be and laying out a plan to get there, you will eventually get there. It doesnt happen overnight or all at once like she seems to be implying, it takes time and effort. The attitude is just a first step towards the goal, it is not the only step. All of you guys who went to college, especially all of you who have J.D.s, M.D.s or P.H.D.s, do you think you could have gotten through the years of college and the endless testing and studying without a positive attitude and a clear goal in mind. Somehow I doubt it.


edit: had to correct something, didnt sound very good.

[JamesVincent]

I still don't know what you mean by "positive thought industry" since in the beginning she attacks networking groups and support networks. Is their some grand conspiracy I am missing?

I guess my point is that the video is a rambling rant attacking several different strawmen.

I think what she and others are referring to is the sale of books like "the Secret" or any of the other books similar to them. "The Secret" itself was based on the studies of Napoleon Hill when he wrote "Think and Grow Rich" so I guess that would also be lumped in also. She seems to have a problem with Rhonda Byrne who wrote "the Secret" but it is not the only book out there who talks about positive thinking. She takes so many things out of context that its kinda hard to understand where the real problem is.

[Cathulhu]

After burning out as a psychotherapist in the late 70's (working with abused kids at the time; when the desire to slam the abusive parent against the wall is getting overpowering, it's time to get out of Dodge) I've come to agree with the estimable Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction. Happiness is a learned condition. And learning requires a certain open mindedness.

[co-shoot]

After burning out as a psychotherapist in the late 70's (working with abused kids at the time; when the desire to slam the abusive parent against the wall is getting overpowering, it's time to get out of Dodge) I've come to agree with the estimable Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction. Happiness is a learned condition. And learning requires a certain open mindedness.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Why does that not surprise me?

[Deep Knight]

I have nothing against positive thinking per se, and believe that everyone should go looking for a job with a positive outlook and not anger. What I believe the author of this piece was focused on was that this line ignores the real problem of outsourcing jobs – perhaps some people should get angry about this and look for a political solution to the general problem (which would be too late for those who have already lost their job anyway). In other words, if positive thinking is the only response, then problems will never get taken care of.

Let’s take climate change (global warming) as an example. There are those who believe it’s happening, and those that don’t for a variety of reasons. A debate we should have (somewhere other than this forum). On new-age forums you see a lot of people who believe that simply thinking good thoughts about it climate change will make it not so. Garbage. While having a positive attitude might help you, it’s not gonna change reality. Just my opinion, but I would love to see a real study that showed anything different (and no references to “100 monkeys,” it turns out that this didn’t really happen either).

[Unidyne]

"You can wish in one hand and piss in the other. Let me know which one fills up first."
- John Grenke (My grandfather)

[Gregg]

My thoughts on why positive thinking is BS

NESARA

I agree life may be better if you have a good attitude, but I think your attitude affects your own actions more than some new age karma kind of stuff.

[Evil Squirrel Overlord]

Maybe it is time I found out what NESARA is.

[Deep Knight]

Maybe it is time I found out what NESARA is.

It's simple, instead of gathering nuts for food or to store for the winter, your minions just need to wait until NESARA is announced and they get millions and millions of nuts. This is because the International trees defauded squirrelkind by pretending that nuts grew on them instead of the TRUTH that they make them from nothing. In otherwords, it's a program that brings out the nuts.