Help with Liens

David Merrill · Post by **David Merrill** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:36 am

But I just viewed the lien notices and they were properly recorded.

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Properly recorded where?

http://www.nhdeeds.com/slvn/web/start.htm

You think they are properly recorded at the Register of Deeds?

Is that what you actually think?

Regards,

David Merrill.

P.S. Is this the guy who should know about this?

http://www.averyassociateslaw.com/Bio/MichaelAvery.asp

Post by **The Observer** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:56 am

David Merrill wrote:Properly recorded where?

http://www.nhdeeds.com/slvn/web/start.htm

You think they are properly recorded at the Register of Deeds?

Is that what you actually think?

No, that is actually what I know. You, however, think that they are misfiled. So based on what you think, is there a reason you haven't filed suit? Or do you lack the courage of your convictions?

P.S. Is this the guy who should know about this?

I have no idea what some guy at a random link would know or not know.

Post by **Famspear** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:04 am

Dear David Merrill: OK, let's see, can you help me with this? I found this verbiage on the internet at a commercial web site called debthelp.com. Please read it and give me your critique:

-----"A Notice of Federal Tax Lien gives the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) legal ownership over your property as payment for tax liability. The tax lien certificate may be filed if and only if (1) the IRS assesses your tax debt, (2) the IRS notifies you and sends a demand for payment, and (3) you do not respond in payment within 10 days of notification.

-----"The tax lien certificate grants legal claim to the IRS over all of your property and removes your rights to the property. [ . . . ]"

http://www.debthelp.com/tax-help/tax-lien.html

Do you see any errors in the above quoted verbiage, David?

---Yours, Famspear

Post by **Famspear** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:37 am

Aw, come on David, take a shot at it. This one's not even that hard, and you already have the information that could help you, somewhere in postings by me or others in the past few weeks. This should be very basic for you. Can you find any errors in the posted verbiage? --Famspear

David Merrill · Post by **David Merrill** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:38 am

Famspear wrote:Dear David Merrill: OK, let's see, can you help me with this? I found this verbiage on the internet at a commercial web site called debthelp.com. Please read it and give me your critique:

-----"A Notice of Federal Tax Lien gives the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) legal ownership over your property as payment for tax liability. The tax lien certificate may be filed if and only if (1) the IRS assesses your tax debt, (2) the IRS notifies you and sends a demand for payment, and (3) you do not respond in payment within 10 days of notification.

-----"The tax lien certificate grants legal claim to the IRS over all of your property and removes your rights to the property. [ . . . ]"

http://www.debthelp.com/tax-help/tax-lien.html

Do you see any errors in the above quoted verbiage, David?

---Yours, Famspear

Context. You have just clipped a little out of context verbiage maybe because my post was difficult to understand. Some rude moderator shut off my BBCode.

You might want to check that the liens are filed properly by NH law.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uniform/vol7.html#fedln

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/htm ... 54-B-2.htm

Section 454-B:2

454-B:2 Place of Filing. –

I. Notices of liens, certificates, and other notices affecting federal tax liens or other federal liens including without limitation releases, subordinations, refiled notices, and discharges shall be filed in accordance with this chapter.

II. Notices of liens upon real property for obligations payable to the United States and certificates and notices affecting the liens, including without limitation, releases, subordinations, refiled notices and discharges, shall be filed in the registry of deeds of the county in which the real property subject to the liens is situated. The register of deeds shall receive, record, and index the same in accordance with RSA 478.

III. Notices of federal liens upon personal property, [Like the Brown's alleged lien.] whether tangible or intangible, for obligations payable to the United States, certificates, and notices affecting the liens shall be filed in the office of the secretary of state. In addition, certificates and notices affecting federal liens previously filed in a city or town clerk's office shall be filed in the office of the secretary of state.

Source. 1988, 116:1. 2001, 102:54, eff. June 26, 2001. 2005, 219:1, eff. Jan. 1, 2006.

Oops! The IRS misfiled the federal tax lien against the Browns!

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/ ... -000-.html

Do you suppose that is what it means when they say Under state law? You see Scoop; there are people around here who believe that if the IRS agent chooses this to the US district court venue, they do not have to abide by the state stipulations for process...

(f) Place for filing notice; form

(1) Place for filing

The notice referred to in subsection (a) shall be filed—

(A) Under State laws

(i) Real property In the case of real property, in one office within the State (or the county, or other governmental subdivision), as designated by the laws of such State, in which the property subject to the lien is situated; and

(ii) Personal property In the case of personal property, whether tangible or intangible, in one office within the State (or the county, or other governmental subdivision), as designated by the laws of such State, in which the property subject to the lien is situated, except that State law merely conforming to or reenacting Federal law establishing a national filing system does not constitute a second office for filing as designated by the laws of such State; or

(B) With clerk of district court

In the office of the clerk of the United States district court for the judicial district in which the property subject to the lien is situated, whenever the State has not by law designated one office which meets the requirements of subparagraph (A); or...

You will probably agree that this pretty much lets the Browns off the hook.

------------------------------------------------

Now that is easier to read and understand you can all see that the NFTL, the lien, is to be filed at the secretary of state in New Hampshire - not the register of deeds.

I bet Ed Brown is awful glad that Quatlosers are not in a position to judge!

Regards,

David Merrill.

P.S. How about you Scoop? Can you handle the truth?

Post by **Famspear** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:48 am

Dear David -- Regarding your response:

-----"Context. You have just clipped a little out of context verbiage maybe because my post was difficult to understand. Some rude moderator shut off my BBCode.

-----"You might want to check that the liens are filed properly by NH law."

I'm not sure what you mean, but I'm not trying to trip you up on the Browns. My post was not really in response to anything you wrote above, and I don't know why the BBCode problem occurred. I was just asking for your input, because I happened to find that verbiage on the internet and I wanted to see what you thought of it -- it's not a trick question or anything.

I'm not saying that your understanding of tax lien law is correct -- I'm saying it's faulty. I was just quizzing you on the quoted verbiage.

Anyway, it's late. Good night to all.... --Famspear

David Merrill · Post by **David Merrill** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:51 am

Famspear wrote:Aw, come on David, take a shot at it. This one's not even that hard, and you already have the information that could help you, somewhere in postings by me or others in the past few weeks. This should be very basic for you. Can you find any errors in the posted verbiage? --Famspear

It does not take looking very hard to see there is no distinction between the lien and the notice of lien:

(d) 45-day period for making disbursements

Even though notice of a lien imposed by section 6321 has been filed, such lien shall not be valid with respect to a security interest which came into existence after tax lien filing by reason of disbursements made before the 46th day after the date of tax lien filing, or (if earlier) before the person making such disbursements had actual notice or knowledge of tax lien filing, but only if such security interest—

That is from right above my quote for Scoop about Place for filing.

So this comes down to the same question I asked of Judge Roy Bean and Prof - on my Signature (which was also turned off lately). - Where is it that this certificate is filed?

-----"The tax lien certificate grants legal claim to the IRS over all of your property and removes your rights to the property. [ . . . ]"

That is one and the same as the NFTL. Notices are filed.

But let's not let that distract Scoop from what he must honestly do about the Place for filing requirements in New Hampshire. After all, that is a personal property tax lien. Scoop must proceed honestly - or not.

Regards,

David Merrill.

Nikki · Post by **Nikki** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:23 am

David:

Please explain the difference (as you see it) between Real Property -- as mentioned in 454-B:2-II -- and Personal Property -- as mentioned in 454-B:2-III.

And then explain how the home, office, and land are not real property.

That way you can prove that the liens were misfiled.

. · Post by . » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:12 pm

That way you can prove that the liens were misfiled.

In his ongoing dream. Say, where's my motor-scooter? What happened to it?

Post by **Famspear** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:03 pm

Dear David: You wrote:

-----"It does not take looking very hard to see there is no distinction between the lien and the notice of lien"

Sorry, you flunked. Do you know why? --Famspear

Post by **Famspear** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:11 pm

Dear David: Here's a hint. Go back and actual READ this language:

----"Keep in mind that filing of a tax lien is merely a perfection step, and has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the lien against the owner taxpayer. -Prof 5/29/07"

This is the quote you append to your posts. Think about what it might mean. -- Famspear

Imalawman · Post by **Imalawman** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:20 pm

Scoop, good to have you here. (sorry about the hijacked thread from our resident nut case) What's the general feeling from around the area up there? Restless for action to be taken or let live attitude? I think you'll find that we're split on the issue, though everyone's a bit restless for this situation to end.

Post by **Famspear** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:23 pm

Dear David: Here's the language from the other web site again:

-----"A Notice of Federal Tax Lien gives the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) legal ownership over your property as payment for tax liability. The tax lien certificate may be filed if and only if (1) the IRS assesses your tax debt, (2) the IRS notifies you and sends a demand for payment, and (3) you do not respond in payment within 10 days of notification.

-----"The tax lien certificate grants legal claim to the IRS over all of your property and removes your rights to the property. [ . . . ]"

What's wrong with this verbiage? First, neither the issuance nor the recordation of a Notice of Federal Tax lien gives the IRS legal ownership of your property. Neither the issuance nor the recordation "creates" the lien. The lien is created by operation of law once (1) the IRS assesses the tax, (2) the IRS notifies you and sends a demand for payment, and (3) you do not pay within the prescribed period (generally, 10 days). NONE OF THIS REQUIRES THE ISSUANCE OR RECORDATION OF A NOTICE OF FEDERAL TAX LIEN.

The tax lien certificate itself does not grant legal claim to the IRS over all of your property -- it's the creation of the lien tha does that.

Neither the creation of the lien nor the issuance or recordaton of the NOTICE of the lien removes ALL your rights to the property. Assuming you still hold the property (which is the case 99% of the time) you still have at least "some" property interest. The actual full divestiture of your ownership of the property comes much later in the collection process.

David, you just don't seem to be able to understand what you read. I and others here have already explained to you that the recordation an issued NOTICE of Federal tax lien (sometimes referred to, simply and somewhat misleadingly as recording the "lien") simply establishes the IRS's priority right AS AGAINST OTHER CREDITORS OF THE taxpayer.

If the IRS wanted to, it could legally seize a taxpayer's property encumbered by the Federal tax lien and sell that property to satisfy a tax debt, ultimately divesting the taxpayer of all right, title and interest in and to that property -- without ever issuing and recording a Notice of Federal Tax Lien.

--Famspear

Post by **The Observer** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:32 pm

David will never answer any of the above pertinent questions honestly. To do so would destroy the myths that he has created and sold to his marks.

So David will ignore the wording in 454-B:2-II and pretend that the notice of lien has to be recorded in the Secretary of State's office. Why? Remember that his "lien termination" scheme depends on the "terminator" filing the worthless paperwork with the SoS' office - not the county clerk or recorder's office. David will conveniently ignore the fact that the government has proceeded against the real property of the Browns and pretend that its personal property at issue.

David knows that filing the "termination" papers with the county offices will do absolutely squat about stopping the real property forfeitures. Sending his victims to the county office would reveal in no time at all the total uselessness of his scheme and result in a angry "terminator" looking for a refund and perhaps a pound of flesh. So David sends the "terminators" 180 degrees in the opposite direction and then advises them to "convince" the third party holding assets of the levied properties or monies that the lien has been "terminated" and they should not turn the money over the government.

That is why I got great amusement from pinning David down and forcing him to blurt out (and twice at that!) that failure to convince the third party meant that the terminators would have to go to district court. Readers are realizing that there must be something horribly wrong if the "termination" process means they still will have to seek out the lawyer in black robes for relief.

And readers are noting that this is the place that David avoids like a plague- and for good reason. David knows he will not get to first base with his useless theories in district court. This is why you don't see him filing class-action lawsuits on behalf of "suitors" for all the lien notices that were "misfiled" against them. A perfect example is this thread - David claims the lien is misfiled, but we have yet to see him challenge this in federal or state court.

In other words, David is just blowing smoke.

David Merrill · Post by **David Merrill** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:51 pm

It seems to scare him a little:

You might want to check that the liens are filed properly by NH law.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uniform/vol7.html#fedln

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/htm ... 54-B-2.htm

Section 454-B:2

454-B:2 Place of Filing. –

I. Notices of liens, certificates, and other notices affecting federal tax liens or other federal liens including without limitation releases, subordinations, refiled notices, and discharges shall be filed in accordance with this chapter.

II. Notices of liens upon real property for obligations payable to the United States and certificates and notices affecting the liens, including without limitation, releases, subordinations, refiled notices and discharges, shall be filed in the registry of deeds of the county in which the real property subject to the liens is situated. The register of deeds shall receive, record, and index the same in accordance with RSA 478.

III. Notices of federal liens upon personal property, [Like the Brown's alleged lien.] whether tangible or intangible, for obligations payable to the United States, certificates, and notices affecting the liens shall be filed in the office of the secretary of state. In addition, certificates and notices affecting federal liens previously filed in a city or town clerk's office shall be filed in the office of the secretary of state.

Source. 1988, 116:1. 2001, 102:54, eff. June 26, 2001. 2005, 219:1, eff. Jan. 1, 2006.
Oops! The IRS misfiled the federal tax lien against the Browns!

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/ ... -000-.html

Do you suppose that is what it means when they say Under state law? You see Scoop; there are people around here who believe that if the IRS agent chooses this to the US district court venue, they do not have to abide by the state stipulations for process...

(f) Place for filing notice; form

(1) Place for filing

The notice referred to in subsection (a) shall be filed—

(A) Under State laws

(i) Real property In the case of real property, in one office within the State (or the county, or other governmental subdivision), as designated by the laws of such State, in which the property subject to the lien is situated; and

(ii) Personal property In the case of personal property, whether tangible or intangible, in one office within the State (or the county, or other governmental subdivision), as designated by the laws of such State, in which the property subject to the lien is situated, except that State law merely conforming to or reenacting Federal law establishing a national filing system does not constitute a second office for filing as designated by the laws of such State; or

(B) With clerk of district court

In the office of the clerk of the United States district court for the judicial district in which the property subject to the lien is situated, whenever the State has not by law designated one office which meets the requirements of subparagraph (A); or...
You will probably agree that this pretty much lets the Browns off the hook.

Regards,

David Merrill.

The Observer and Famspear just do not seem to think that processes of law have anything to do with a tax lien arising from law. The Place for filing is not the register of deeds. Are you trying to say the NFTLs are real property tax liens? Those are the style of liens to be filed at the register of deeds.

Are you saying that the personal property tax liens are not filed at the register of deeds?

I bet Scoop, to protect his feelings of honor and dignity has completely forgotten about Quatloos. How about it Scoop? Will you just acknowledge that you know about the statutes requiring the NFTLs you are speaking of be filed with the secretary of state?

Regards,

David Merrill.

Post by **Demosthenes** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:15 pm

Plainfield

Browns' total bill grows to $3 million

By Margot Sanger-Katz
Monitor staff

June 21, 2007 8:00AM

Ed and Elaine Brown owe the state and federal government close to $3 million in unpaid taxes, interest, penalties and criminal fines, according to a review of deeds and court records for the couple.

The Browns, who were convicted of conspiring to evade federal income taxes in January, have been holed up in their Plainfield home for months, resisting arrest on bench warrants. In April, they were each sentenced to prison terms of more than 5 years. The records suggest that if they ever leave their fortified hilltop home, it will likely be taken from them to satisfy their debts.

Elaine Brown was found guilty of evading federal income taxes on the nearly $1.9 million she earned as a dentist between 1996 and 2003. At trial, prosecutors estimated that her unpaid taxes were about $625,000 for those years. But with interest and penalties, that number has jumped to close to $2 million, according to a federal tax lien filed against her property.

Brown was also found guilty of failing to withhold employment taxes for the workers at her practice. A separate federal lien shows that liability for those taxes has risen to $194,000.

In addition to the federal tax liens, the Browns also face a state tax lien for business profit taxes that Elaine Brown did not pay in 2002 and 2003. That lien, which was filed earlier this year, comes to $343,000.

The judge in the couple's criminal case also found that the couple must forfeit $215,000, because the money was tied to criminal acts in their conviction. The judge's order permits the government to seize the Browns' real estate to satisfy that judgment.

The IRS has already taken one piece of Brown real estate: the West Lebanon office building that housed Elaine Brown's dental practice. IRS criminal investigations agents and U.S. Marshals carried out that seizure earlier this month. But the sale of that property is unlikely to raise enough money to cover all of the Browns' debt. According to town assessing records, it's worth about $833,000.

Whether the Browns have any money is uncertain. At trial, Elaine Brown testified that the couple had invested all of their income in their home. But in interviews, Ed Brown has indicated that he has enough money to pay his wife's tax bill, provided someone can show him a law that requires him to do so.

"If they feel it was an obligation and they could prove it is, we would take care of it immediately," Brown said Monday. "We would write out a check in 48 hours."

Jean Weld, an Assistant U.S. Attorney who was working on the case several months ago, said in March that she suspects the Browns have other assets, though probably not enough to pay all their bills.

"I can't believe that every time that she had cash receivables or whatever, that money was received, that they would go to Lowe's or Home Depot," Weld said at the time. "I have a sense that there's probably some money."

Marshals have disconnected phone lines at the Brown home in Plainfield. Messages left yesterday for an IRS spokesman and Robert Rabuck, the Assistant U.S. Attorney who took over for Weld, were not returned.

Quatloos!

Help with Liens

Re: Place for filing

Re: Place for filing

for Scoop