Liberty Dollar Update

[fortinbras]

It may be desirable to keep money attached to "something tangible", but making that something gold or silver means connecting the value of US currency to a metal that is produced primarily by other countries, some of them not friendly to us. So a gold strike in Russia could devalue American money if it were associated with the market price of gold.

Although the connection isn't so obvious, by having FRNs backed by Treasury bonds, the Federal Reserve Notes are associated with the general value of all US resources, including the national parks, the oil reserves, the various federal properties, etc. This is considerably more secure and more reliable than simply tagging the monetary system to gold.

[Gregg]

Just like the Mint Act of 1792 set the grains for a dollar and other denominations in gold and silver grains....so too a Government can increase the money supply or decrease it by lawfully adjusting the amount of grains in the dollar or other denominations. It is their legal mandate to execise such authority.

The salient point being to keep money tied to something tangible. And not created from interest or debt.

If our Government had done followed the path suggested above and our government increased the money supply in porportion to the increase in population, with our current holdings of gold today, a dollar would be worth about .005 grains of gold instead of the approximate 24 grains of gold it started out as in 1792. Now, I don't know if that is even visible; however, it is tangible, and our debts could be paid with it.

Wow, a drive by troll! Your knowledge of economics is almost as minuscule as your .005 grains. Money supply, to those of us who understand the stuff you think you do, is tied to production and increase in wealth. Debt is the mechanism of monetary policy, not the creator of anything. The work you do for the 15 years you're paying on the mortgage is the basis for the payment you receive and the payments are the basis for the increase in the money supply. You, (if you actually work and create things of value) create the new money, every time you make a $2 piece of raw material into a $20 finished good, that's new money. I'd explain further but I'm pretty sure I lost you already, so I won't waste my time. Quit trying to educate yourself on sov'run internet sites and go figure out what the hell you're talking about.

[LPC]

Just like the Mint Act of 1792 set the grains for a dollar and other denominations in gold and silver grains....so too a Government can increase the money supply or decrease it by lawfully adjusting the amount of grains in the dollar or other denominations. It is their legal mandate to execise such authority.

The salient point being to keep money tied to something tangible. And not created from interest or debt.

Why?

If our Government had done followed the path suggested above and our government increased the money supply in porportion to the increase in population, with our current holdings of gold today, a dollar would be worth about .005 grains of gold instead of the approximate 24 grains of gold it started out as in 1792. Now, I don't know if that is even visible; however, it is tangible, and our debts could be paid with it.

The reference to "our debts" suggests that you are equating fiscal policy (i.e., federal revenues versus federal spending) with monetary policy (i.e., the value of the dollar and income that can be earned by a dollar).

Why do you think that the two policies are (or should be) related?

I'm not asking these questions because I need (or even want) an answer, but to suggest that your understandings of macro economics may be superficial, to say the least.

[Imalawman]

Wow, a drive by troll! Your knowledge of economics is almost as minuscule as your .005 grains. Money supply, to those of us who understand the stuff you think you do, is tied to production and increase in wealth. Debt is the mechanism of monetary policy, not the creator of anything. The work you do for the 15 years you're paying on the mortgage is the basis for the payment you receive and the payments are the basis for the increase in the money supply. You, (if you actually work and create things of value) create the new money, every time you make a $2 piece of raw material into a $20 finished good, that's new money. I'd explain further but I'm pretty sure I lost you already, so I won't waste my time. Quit trying to educate yourself on sov'run internet sites and go figure out what the hell you're talking about.

As to the bold quote - I'm not sure I am in total agreement with you there. You have definitely increased value which you've measured in money. You also created a good that given a particular medium of exchange could be used as money. But isn't a bit of a leap to say by adding value to a good, you've created money? I'm aware this is your particular bailiwick, but I'm not sure whether you were just making point or actually believe that everything is "money".

[Pottapaug1938]

This just in: according to Coin World, von Nothaus has just been found guilty.

http://coinworld.com/News/20110328/Bull ... 10328.aspx

[Gregg]

Wow, a drive by troll! Your knowledge of economics is almost as minuscule as your .005 grains. Money supply, to those of us who understand the stuff you think you do, is tied to production and increase in wealth. Debt is the mechanism of monetary policy, not the creator of anything. The work you do for the 15 years you're paying on the mortgage is the basis for the payment you receive and the payments are the basis for the increase in the money supply. You, (if you actually work and create things of value) create the new money, every time you make a $2 piece of raw material into a $20 finished good, that's new money. I'd explain further but I'm pretty sure I lost you already, so I won't waste my time. Quit trying to educate yourself on sov'run internet sites and go figure out what the hell you're talking about.

As to the bold quote - I'm not sure I am in total agreement with you there. You have definitely increased value which you've measured in money. You also created a good that given a particular medium of exchange could be used as money. But isn't a bit of a leap to say by adding value to a good, you've created money? I'm aware this is your particular bailiwick, but I'm not sure whether you were just making point or actually believe that everything is "money".

I wrote a really good, and really long, answer to this last night, and it's gone...hmmmm. I;ll get back to it this weekend.

[Dr. Caligari]

This just in: according to Coin World, von Nothaus has just been found guilty.

http://coinworld.com/News/20110328/Bull ... 10328.aspx

Which of our resident idiots was predicitng his acquittal? Harvey? SteveSy?

[Demosthenes]

The coin world article said he was convicted on two counts. According to a Nuthouse followers, he was convicted on four counts.

http://www.liberty4free.com/Liberty%20D ... 0Trial.htm

The superceding indictment, however, only had three counts.

18:371 CONSPIRACY TO DEFRAUD THE UNITED STATES BY MAKING, UTTERING AND PASSING COUNTERFEIT COIN, TO WIT: THE LIBERTY DOLLAR
(1s)

18:485 & 2 FALSELY MAKING AND FORGING COUNTERFEIT COINS, TO WIT: THE LIBERTY DOLLAR AND AIDING AND ABETTING
(2s)

18:486 & 2 UTTERING AND MAKING COINS OF SILVER INTENDED FOR USE AS CURRENT MONEY AND AIDING AND ABETTING
(3s)

[Demosthenes]

This just in: according to Coin World, von Nothaus has just been found guilty.

http://coinworld.com/News/20110328/Bull ... 10328.aspx

Which of our resident idiots was predicitng his acquittal? Harvey? SteveSy?

Stevie.

[The Observer]

This just in: according to Coin World, von Nothaus has just been found guilty.

Obviously this was a travesty of justice. If only the jury had been allowed to smoke the same stuff von Nothaus had been smoking, I am relatively certain they would have returned a "Not Guilty" verdict.

[Thule]

This just in: according to Coin World, von Nothaus has just been found guilty.

http://coinworld.com/News/20110328/Bull ... 10328.aspx

"The jury reached its decision in less than 90 minutes."

Tsk tsk, I thought the .gov had "no basis for the case".

[Dezcad]

If only the jury had been allowed to smoke the same stuff von Nothaus had been smoking, I am relatively certain they would have returned a "Not Guilty" verdict.

They'd still be deliberating - in order to get more free meals.

[The Observer]

The coin world article said he was convicted on two counts. According to a Nuthouse followers, he was convicted on four counts....The superceding indictment, however, only had three counts.

I think I figured out the discrepancy:

Verdict expected within 30 days.

Running time is approx. one month.

PS: I am very pleased to hear that some people are coming from as far away as California for the trial! Please remember that you have a 30 day window to attend.

His followers, promised by vonNuthouse that he would be able to hold the government off for thirty days, were mortified and felt absolutely duped when he got round-housed by a 90- minute jury deliberation only after 8 days of trial. So his followers quickly convened a sovrun court at a local Denny's and convicted vonNuthouse on an additional count.

[The Observer]

http://www.wbtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=14279992#

This article claims that the trial lasted eight days. So which is it? Four or eight?

Never mind - I just figured it out. The coin hobby magazine actually said four days of defense testimony. So it stands to reason the government's case lasted for four days.

In which case, where did von Nothaus think the other 22 days was going to come from? Jury deliberations?

[notorial dissent]

90 minutes, OUCH!!!!!, doesn't speak well of the defense efforts to obfuscate what must have been painfully, or maybe boringly, obvious to the jury. If I'd had to listen to one of his monetary speeches, I would probably have convicted on that alone.

Well, as the old saying goes, let the spinning and appeals excuses begin. I don't foresee any better luck there than he had at trial, but I'm sure he'll have lots of excuses to explain why he lost.

Anyone know what the final charges were when they went to trial since the article was a little vague?

[The Operative]

In which case, where did von Nothaus think the other 22 days was going to come from? Jury deliberations?

I fully expect to hear from Nuthouse how his lawyers didn't present the case he wanted to present or how the judge wouldn't allow his list of witnesses. He probably wanted to call Geithner, all the members of the Board of Governors, Ron Paul, and probably every kook from the Ludwig von Mises Institute in order to illustrate some great currency conspiracy.

[fortinbras]

http://www.coinworld.com/News/20110328/ ... 10328.aspx

Guilty on two counts
BY MARY JANE SKALA
COIN WORLD SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT

Bernard von NotHaus, creator of the Liberty Dollar, was found guilty on two counts this morning in his counterfeiting trial at the federal courthouse in Statesville, N.C.

He was found guilty of making counterfeit coins and an intent to defraud. Sentencing will be held in several months.

The jury reached its decision in less than 90 minutes.

In this week's four days of defense testimony, von NotHaus maintained that his "medallion" was not legal tender. He said each piece contained the NORFED name and telephone number, but the government pointed out that the silver pieces bore a very strong resemblance to legal U.S. tender coins.

Forfeiture hearings began after the verdict was read in regard to property belonging to von NotHaus and others that was seized by the U.S. government.
-- -- -- -- -- --
EARLIER ARTICLE
http://www.coinweek.com/news/news-at-a- ... h-15-2011/

Federal trial opens for Liberty Dollar founder: Von NotHaus faces federal counterfeiting charges
BY STEVE ROACH
COIN WORLD STAFF

Trial began March 8 in the U.S. District Court for the Western District of North Carolina in Statesville, where Bernard von NotHaus — creator of the Liberty Dollar – is being prosecuted on three criminal charges related to counterfeiting.

In a March 6 e-mail to his supporters, Von NotHaus defined the case as an "epic battle ... one lone stubborn individual American vs. the might and fright of the U.S. government."

He added, "The lines are clearly drawn between an individual's freedom, to come up with creative ways, such as barter to deal with government mismanagement of our economy and its continued nullification of our Constitution."

Von NotHaus founded the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve Act and Internal Revenue Code, or NORFED, in 1998. He worked with merchants to accept his private barter currency, Liberty Dollars, as payment. NORFED was later renamed Liberty Services.

Liberty Dollars were produced as both precious metal and copper rounds bearing a face value and as gold and silver certificate warehouse receipts.

The federal government alleges that Von NotHaus, with three other defendants, worked together to violate the law by making Liberty Dollars the government characterizes as "coins" of silver "intended for use as current money" and "in resemblance of genuine coins of the United States ..."

Von NotHaus was federally indicted on May 19, 2009, on three counts involving counterfeiting, and he requested that he be tried separately from his co-defendants.

The U.S. Mint posted a consumer alert about NORFED on its Web site on Sept. 13, 2006, stating that using the Liberty Dollar as currency violates federal law.

A jury composed of nine men and three women, seated March 8, will determine von NotHaus' guilt or innocence.

U.S. Assistant Prosecutor Craig Morenao, in opening statements, said the government would set out to prove that von NotHaus deliberately told people to give Liberty Dollars as change for Federal Reserve notes, in direct violation of laws that specifically prohibit the use of passing originally designed coins as current money.

The prosecution stressed that Liberty Dollars have numerous traits resembling official U.S. coins.

Among the 75 exhibits presented by the prosecution were Liberty Dollars, a T-shirt screened "U.S. Mint can bite me!" and production items confiscated from the privately owned Sunshine Mint in Idaho, where Liberty Dollars were produced under contract.

The prosecution's first witness, an FBI special agent, testified that the Liberty Dollar resembles and is confused with U.S. currency, and that the marketing of the Liberty Dollar was a multi-level marketing pyramid scheme.

Undercover FBI agent

On March 9, the prosecution presented testimony from an undercover FBI agent who trained at Liberty Dollar University between August 2005 and April 2007, as part of an FBI investigation.

She testified that the training stressed that Liberty Dollars were not numismatic items but rather currency that was meant to be spent. On cross examination, she confirmed that Liberty Dollars were always referred to as currency and never as a coin.

On March 9, Daniel P. Shaver, the U.S. Mint's chief legal counsel, testified that no entity other than the U.S. Mint may mint U.S. coins and that the FBI requested that the Mint post a "Hot Item" to the Mint's Web site regarding the potentially confusing Liberty Dollars.

The defense's cross examination of Shaver brought out that individual design elements on U.S. coins are not trademarked, and that trademark violation is noncriminal.

On March 10, an FBI agent testified about confiscating dies, blanks, silver bullion and records from the premises of the private Sunshine Mint, which struck the Liberty Dollars.

Brian Silliman, a numismatist and professional grader employed by Numismatic Guaranty Corp., testified as an expert witness on similarities between Liberty Dollars and U.S. coins.

The government rested its case after slightly more than two days of testimony at 12:25 p.m. on March 10.

The trial was recessed until March 14 to allow time for defense witnesses to arrive in North Carolina.
--0--

[notorial dissent]

In which case, where did von Nothaus think the other 22 days was going to come from? Jury deliberations?

I fully expect to hear from Nuthouse how his lawyers didn't present the case he wanted to present or how the judge wouldn't allow his list of witnesses. He probably wanted to call Geithner, all the members of the Board of Governors, Ron Paul, and probably every kook from the Ludwig von Mises Institute in order to illustrate some great currency conspiracy.

I'm quite sure Bernie wanted to get up and give one of his patent pending, guaranteed coma inducing rants about monetary and fiscal policy and his view of how it all works, after all he is a world renowned "monetary architect and specialist" at least in his mind, and I am sure the jury and all concerned are quite happy he didn't get to. If Bernie's defense was reduced to arguing that US coins aren't "trademarked", then I can see why it was such a short trial, I wondered how they would try and get around the charges, and I would guess they didn't from the looks of it.

Bernie shares the same delusions that Pete has, that he is right, and everyone else is wrong, and that if they would only listen to him they would see the error of their ways. I do think Nutty believes the nonsense he is spewing, and I also believe that he is a conman and cheat, since there is no reason he can't be all three.

The counterfeiting conviction I didn't doubt for a minute, I didn't think anyone who was not in as much of a plant induced fog as von Nutjob could help but see that one. I was pretty sure it was a foregone conclusion just on appearances. So they convicted him on defrauding the United States as the fraud charge, and they didn't convict on the uttering charge, I wonder why? I guess the question is now, since they have him on the counterfeiting charges, are they going to come back on money laundering charges, as I had heard that brought in to the equation at one point?

The forfeiture hearings ought to be interesting, but I don't think they are going to bode well for the rest of his victims, I just have a bad feeling about that. That one is going to be something else. I'll bet the sentencing recommendation report ought to be entertaining reading as well.

[Judge Roy Bean]

From the FBI:

Von NotHaus, who remains free on bond, faces a sentence of up to 15 years’ imprisonment on count two of the indictment and a fine of not more than $250,000. Von NotHaus faces a prison sentence of five years and fines of $250,000 on both counts one and three. In addition, the United States is seeking the forfeiture of approximately 16,000 pounds of Liberty Dollar coins and precious metals, currently valued at nearly $7 million. The forfeiture trial, which began today [*][/b] before United States District Court Judge Richard Voorhees, will resume on April 4, 2011 in the federal courthouse in Statesville. Judge Voorhees has not yet set a date for the sentencing of von NotHaus.

*March 18 press release:
http://charlotte.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/pr ... 031811.htm

[LPC]

In addition, the United States is seeking the forfeiture of approximately 16,000 pounds of Liberty Dollar coins and precious metals, currently valued at nearly $7 million.

I'm sure I've asked this before, but where on earth did this nut get $7 million in precious metals?

Are there banks out there crazy enough to lend money to "monetary architects"?

And I assume that a perfected security interest will not survive forfeiture of property used in a crime (which is what the coins and metals seem to be), which means that anyone who did lend money to NutHouse will be SOL.