Liberty Dollar Update

[Prof]

No, perfected legitimate security interests survive forfeiture actions, but the rules for foreclosure may change. For example, a person asserting a forfeiture claim would be entitled to notice of a foreclosure. Under most state law provisions, junior creditors are not entitled to notice.

[.]

If it was all silver, 16,000 pounds is about 233,472 troy ounces, which would be $8.17 million at $35/oz. Unknown is what price the government used to come up with $7 million.

Probably a few hundred ounces of gold in the mix. 300 ounces of gold at $1,420/ounce is $426K. $6.574 million in $35 silver would be about 187,828 troy ounces. At 1,000 ounces of gold, 163,485 ounces of silver brings the total to $7 million. Probably also a few thousand pounds of copper being counted in the 16,000 pound total (even though it's not a precious metal,) which would have nominal value at $4.30/pound.

Not hard to believe that he had minted coins awaiting shipment and bullion paid for by customers awaiting minting to satisfy orders for coins in those sorts of amounts. Especially if the coins were being used to launder money. He also has long referred to the seized metal as being "your" (meaning his customers) property.

Under this scenario, there's no need for any bank or other lender to be involved at all.

[Thule]

[...] Especially if the coins were being used to launder money. He also has long referred to the seized metal as being "your" (meaning his customers) property.

Under this scenario, there's no need for any bank or other lender to be involved at all.

For Nuthouse's sake, I hope he has doen some screening before accepting orders. People who need to launder money can sometimes be rather unpleasant if the money is lost.

Do we know if there's a customer register somewhere?

[Gregg]

[...] Especially if the coins were being used to launder money. He also has long referred to the seized metal as being "your" (meaning his customers) property.

Under this scenario, there's no need for any bank or other lender to be involved at all.

For Nuthouse's sake, I hope he has doen some screening before accepting orders. People who need to launder money can sometimes be rather unpleasant if the money is lost.

Do we know if there's a customer register somewhere?

I'm sure the Gambino Family has a record of their purchases that is good enough for them, not like it needs to stand up in court if you know what I mean. Is there an over under on if he lasts in prison any longer than the jury deliberated?

[Nikki]

It would be very interesting to see if there's any significant correlation betewwn the face value of all the outstanding warehouse receipts and the actual amount of metal that was in the vaults.

Since the holders of the warehouse receipts weren't cahrged any annual storage, etc fees, I suspect a large portion of that paper was backed by gold and silver vapor.

[Gregg]

It would be very interesting to see if there's any significant correlation betewwn the face value of all the outstanding warehouse receipts and the actual amount of metal that was in the vaults.

Since the holders of the warehouse receipts weren't cahrged any annual storage, etc fees, I suspect a large portion of that paper was backed by gold and silver vapor.

Obviously, the stuff they took was inventoried and is public, but was it ever introduced into the record how much there SHOULD HAVE BEEN?

[Demosthenes]

Dear Liberty Dollar Supporters,

I sincerely regret to inform you that I was found guilty on all four counts regarding the Liberty Dollar in less than an hour on Friday, March 18. The only explanation is that a strong, anti-liberty person took control of a weak-willed jury and pushed the verdict through in record time in spite of well worded Jury Instructions. A government forfeiture hearing immediately followed the conviction. PLEASE NOTE: Your property is at risk so please continue to read these emails and take action so the government does not steal your property. An appeal is planned but that will take years. More news to follow. An unofficial, but most interesting account of the trial is available via Heather's blog at:

http://www.liberty4free.com/Liberty%20D ... 0Trial.htm

God help you and our country as American descends into a hellish hyperinflationary future without the benefits of the Liberty Dollar.

I am very sorry our efforts to return America to value failed.

Thank you so much for your support.

Bernard von NotHaus
Monetary Architect

[fortinbras]

The only explanation is that a strong, anti-liberty person took control of a weak-willed jury and pushed the verdict through in record time in spite of well worded Jury Instructions.

As an alternative explanation: Von NotHaus had openly advertised his funny money as legal currency, had advertised that some of his coin designs were deliberate copies of old US silver coinage designs, had put "USA" and dollar amounts on his funny money, etc., and that pretty much met all the criteria of 18 USC §486:

18 U.S. Code § 486: Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal.
Whoever ... makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States, or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be ... imprisoned not more than five years.

[Pottapaug1938]

No, von Nuthouse. You lost because you were guilty as hell, and the issue wasn't close enough to keep the jury occupied for even two hours.

"The only explanation," indeed....

[fortinbras]

Last year, when Von NotHaus was indicted, he tried to get the case dismissed on the pretext that the US govt could prosecuted only those crimes committed inside DC, and that he was not a corporation or a US citizen(!) and several other "can't fix stupid" sovrun-type arguments. After demonstrating that sort of legal skill, I am surprised that the jury took as long as it did.

[webhick]

Hey Bernie:


HA!

[Demosthenes]

URGENT ACTION: Bad News for your Property!

Dear Liberty Dollar Supporters:

Thank you, thank you, thank you for the 100s of replies. The two most common words re my conviction were "sorry" and "sad." I wholeheartedly agree and am sorry I can't reply to every email. URGENT we have no time to lose to protect your property from gov theft!

Please do NOT let the government steal your property!!!

I have just learned that the government will aggressively defend against any claims once the judge decides on April 4th whether or not the property in whole or in part is subject to forfeiture. This means that the government may steal your property i.e. the silver that backs the paper or digital Liberty Dollar Warehouse Receipts 'without just compensation' i.e. fair market value! Please stand up for your Fifth Amendment!

URGENT ACTION IS REQUIRED IMMEDIATELY!!!

Unless you are identified as an "interested party" on the official record prior to the April 4th Forfeiture Hearing on Monday morning, you may not have standing with the court to redeem your Liberty Dollar warehouse receipts or the gov process may be so encumbered that the government prevails and steals your property.

You do not have to identify the total value of your paper or digital Warehouse Receipts that you are holding to qualify as an "Interested Party." So, even if you are holding just one $1 Liberty Dollar silver certificate, you are qualified as an "Interested Party" and encouraged to register - IMMEDIATELY.

Registering is easy, fast and free: Simply email the statement below to Assistant US Attorney Thomas R. Ascik <thomas.ascik@usdoj.gov>, the government attorney who is trying to steal your property. And send a CC to me <Bernard@LibertyDollar.org> and I will send all the emails to the attorney who will represent you after you sign an attorney/client agreement. Your CC to me is very important! Please do NOT forget to CC me so you will be on the list to have your property or its fair market value returned to you.

EMAIL THE STATEMENT BELOW to Thomas Ascik with a CC to me. Be sure to include your name and address:

I hereby certify that I am the bearer of Liberty Dollar warehouse receipt(s) and an interested party in any forfeiture action regarding my property. I demand the return of my property or its fair market value in a timely manner and to be informed with sufficient time to reply to any and all actions until my property is returned.

INCLUDE YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS
SHARE THIS IMPORTANT MESSAGE WITH YOUR EMAIL LIST!!

Please note that you will need to sign an attorney/client agreement and agree to pay a contingency fee prior to any legal services. NO FEE is required at this time.

But that may not be enough! If you are holding a serious amount of paper or digital Warehouse Receipts, I strongly encourage you to attend this Forfeiture Hearing on April 4, 2011 at the Federal Courthouse, 200 W Broad St. in Statesville, NC. I know the time is short, the distance is great and the cost is dear; but that is the best suggestion I can make at this time for anyone with a serious amount of paper or digital Warehouse Receipts. If you do appear, you will be called as a witness and officially recognized as an interested party in the court record.
NOTICE: There is a small chance that the Hearing may be continued (postponed) so please email me for the latest info for the Hearing.

Please do NOT let the government steal your property!! At the very least, email Thomas Ascik and send a CC to me to protect your silver. Stand up for your property and continue to be a part of the Liberty Dollar effort by demanding the gov return your silver or its fair market value.

Glenn Beck devoted his Friday, March 25, 2011 show to exposing the Federal Reserve and featured Ed Griffin. Google "glenn beck federal reserve" to find the show.

Now Anybody can be a "Unique Terrorist" Please read this open letter to America calling for your cry out about my conviction.

Click HERE for a list of recent articles regarding the BVNH conviction.
Please get your article published and contribute to this public outcry or encourage someone to do so.

Meanwhile I will continue to work with my attorneys to find justice. Stay tune.

Thanks again for your support!

Bernard von NotHaus
Monetary Architect
Bernard@LibertyDollar.org
________________________________________
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[Judge Roy Bean]

URGENT ACTION: Bad News for your Property!

Dear Liberty Dollar Supporters:

...
Registering is easy, fast and free: Simply email the statement below to Assistant US Attorney Thomas R. Ascik <thomas.ascik@usdoj.gov>, the government attorney who is trying to steal your property. And send a CC to me <Bernard@LibertyDollar.org> and I will send all the emails to the attorney who will represent you after you sign an attorney/client agreement. Your CC to me is very important! Please do NOT forget to CC me so you will be on the list to have your property or its fair market value returned to you.
...
Please note that you will need to sign an attorney/client agreement and agree to pay a contingency fee prior to any legal services. NO FEE is required at this time.

Let me get this straight. People foolish enough to fall for Nuthouse's scheme are now supposed to trust him to arrange for an attorney to represent their interests on an undefined pre-paid contingency basis?

Even if that isn't what he actually meant, it demonstrates how convoluted his thinking is.

[fortinbras]

It is very possible that Von NotHaus clientele will not be so eager to sign up for any such thing. For one thing, a good many people were parking their FRNs with BVN as a warehouse bank, to conceal their assets from ex-wives, the IRS, creditors, etc., withdrawing cash as they needed it by returning their NORFED funny money and paying a small handling fee. I feel pretty certain that many of these people would prefer losing their money by default than being identified by claiming it.

Much the same happened about 25 years ago with the National Barter Assn's warehouse bank. The "manager" very inconsiderately dropped dead and, as he had conscientiously destroyed all the paperwork about the account-holders and kept the records in some place that has not be found, letters (I think this was well before e-mail) kept coming in -- some of them cash to be stashed away and more and more from people trying to withdraw from their secret accounts. The IRS dutifully collected this mail and paid condolence calls on the bank's clients. By the way, the actual money was pretty well gone -- it turned out that the manager had kept the money safe by putting it in a safety deposit box in a real commercial bank, under his own name and without any papers to show that the money belonged to anyone else, and the contents of the box all went to his widow.

[Number Six]

It is a lot easier to to buy U.S. gold and silver, hold for the increase (silver has more than doubled in the last year), and then look for a buyer or ship for top dollar. Cash is readily available, usually at a discount to getting a check, which is mainly a problem with people who owe money and are being sought by a debtor.

The U.S. government mints gold, silver, and platinum coins and puts extremely modest values on these coins--$50 for the gold oz., $1 for the silver and $100 for the platinum coin.

The "Liberty Dollar" put extravagant values on its metal coins, that when minted were priced way above actually metal value. Just a bit pretentious?

Those who bought into this scheme were not particularly shrewd. And anyone with a brain would have tried to get out of the bad investment at the first hint of trouble. There are so many books on privacy and wealth preservation. The legal schemes are not asking for trouble like this one.

[LPC]

I saw the complaint about the preceding message, but I'm not sure that the links should have been removed. One link was to a video of the Glen Beck program previously referenced, and the other was to an ebay site showing bids on Liberty Dollar coins. Both seemed relevant to the message (and the thread) and neither seemed commercial.

[Pottapaug1938]

It is a lot easier to to buy U.S. gold and silver, hold for the increase (silver has more than doubled in the last year), and then look for a buyer or ship for top dollar. Cash is readily available, usually at a discount to getting a check, which is mainly a problem with people who owe money and are being sought by a debtor.

The U.S. government mints gold, silver, and platinum coins and puts extremely modest values on these coins--$50 for the gold oz., $1 for the silver and $100 for the platinum coin.

The government puts these values on the coins, knowing full well that they will never be spent at their legal tender value, only so that these products will legally have the status of coins, and not precious metal tokens or medals.

[Gregg]

I saw the complaint about the preceding message, but I'm not sure that the links should have been removed. One link was to a video of the Glen Beck program previously referenced, and the other was to an ebay site showing bids on Liberty Dollar coins. Both seemed relevant to the message (and the thread) and neither seemed commercial.

Feel free to put them back, I was responding to a complaint. Personally I didn't feel strongly about it either way.

[notorial dissent]

Those who bought into this scheme were not particularly shrewd. And anyone with a brain would have tried to get out of the bad investment at the first hint of trouble. There are so many books on privacy and wealth preservation. The legal schemes are not asking for trouble like this one.

With which I wholeheartedly agree, and since my opinion of von Nutbert is public record I won’t go further there.

My question for the legal crowd here is as follows.

Since it is agreed, and fairly obvious that there are probably a great number, if not all, of von Nutjob’s creditors at this point who will find it inconvenient, to say the least, to come forward and claim their property left with him, just what is the actual status of those creditors, since that is in effect what they have become as a result of the legal actions and the seizure? If someone had a receipt for purchase of some of his offerings, do they have a claim that can be pressed, or is it likely that since one of the main charges was counterfeiting that they would be forefeit as counterfeit items? I can see a number of possibilities here and am wondering where the gov’t will go now that they have gotten the conviction they wanted on von Nutbert? One of the things I have considered all along is that since in my opinion, his slugs constituted counterfeiting that would make all of the product he has produced is contraband.

I am also wondering about the kind and quality of records he kept, since that hasn’t come up in regard to the trial, but what would the govt’s responsibility be as far as the people listed on those records as owning some of the metal or paper?

Just things that have come to mind since the end of the trial, well since well before actually, it is just that now seems like a good time to ask the question.

[fortinbras]

I strongly suspect that a good many of his clientele will simply and quietly eat their losses rather than draw the govt's attention to themselves.