New here and seeking advice

[LandofOz]

Good morning all! I've been reading these boards for the past couple weeks and decided to join up because you all (with a few exceptions) seem to know and understand the law, especially concerning these "Sovereign citizen" movements. A little about me, I'm no expert on the law, I've studied Con law and criminal law but not to a major extent. My degrees are in Poli Sci and International Relations with a focus on American Foreign Policy and National Security Policy as well as a minor in Criminal Justice. Since embarking on this journey into the sovereign/redemption movements I have become quite concerned with these nutters. I've actually started writing a paper on the movements which I fully intend to use in my pursuit of a graduate education. I have to explain as well that I am in my late 30's and just finished my degree -- better late than never -- and I am exploring my graduate school options at this time, but most likely won't be heading to law school as it never appealed to me. I worked for over 10 years in the IT field but I was always a student of history and politics, at least what I could learn myself.

Now onto my advice issue. A few weeks back a "friend" of mine called me for some advice on his "sovereign" citizenship. I explained to him I had never heard of such a thing in all my years studying politics and criminal justice. He explained some of the points the sovereigns use to escape government intrusions and tried (although it was a little half-assed because he didn't fully understand himself) to explain the strawman theory. I countered him at almost every turn and proved with what limited knowledge I have of Con law and criminal law that his arguments held no weight. He even had his "mentor" ask me questions but as soon as said "mentor" realized I wouldn't be swayed he cut and ran as most grifters do when they have been found out. So I began seriously researching these issues and quickly found that these people are a fraud. As I learned more about these movements I brought him the information including court cases/dockets/judgements and links to the FBI, ADL, and SPLC. He still refuses to listen and is falling in deeper. He is now claiming he is a "Moor", purchasing a so-called "diplomatic" credential, and is filing liens against 7 different County Sheriffs because he says they had no right to arrest him when they clearly had a warrant for the house he was visiting and he resisted the officers. My issue isn't with him messing up his own life, he has made his decision and imo has always been looking for the next get-rich-quick scam so he is probably beyond help. My issue is with his family, who have been like a second family to me since I was a kid, and what if any of his nonsense could affect his family. His father is a well educated and intelligent man but he has many health problems at this stage in his life and I want to look out for him and his family (a few of his cousins are some of my oldest and dearest friends). How would you all approach this situation? I've had friends that work for certain government agencies advise me to report him and others that say to just make his family aware of what is happening. My problem is how to completely debunk all this nonsense in a short and sweet manner that everyone in his family can understand. It seems when I start explaining the movement to some of his family they don't quite understand most of what I am saying. It gets to be quite long and drawn out when describing their activities and court failures.

I have stopped talking to him altogether. I informed him the last time we spoke that just speaking to him reflects badly on me and could cause me to be called in to question for entertaining such thoughts. I've made sure to document all e-mails and phone calls to other friends when discussing the situation and my stance against it. So, if I may ask, any advice?

Thanks for reading and thanks in advance for any advice.

[The Observer]

Welcome to Quatloos, LandofOz. Hope you enjoy your stay here and that you find time to browse the threads to further your understanding of soverign citizens, tax protestors and the like. Not that you should expect to understand much, since there are a number of people on this site who have been studying these wingnuts for years and still have moments where they are stunned into silence due to a TPer inventing a new ridiculous way to get themselves slammed into jail for the rest of their lives. Why do they do it? If you find out, please let us know.

Regarding your friend and his family's issue, I am not sure that there is much more that you can do. It is readily apparent your friend ran and dived head-first into the kool-ade barrel that the grifter showed him. He is determined to ruin his life and that he possibly put his life on the line should he decide to act out violently in defense of his position. The real ones who are going to suffer will be his family, if not from financial loss caused by your friend directly or indirectly, by the shame and public embarrassment if your friend ends up getting arrested.

I understand that you want to show the family what the law says, but because the law can sometimes be difficult to understand, they may not get it. And this is one of the ways that the grifters try to exploit the situation. They twist the meaning of the law or ruling or make up entirely new laws or court rulings in order to deceive their victims into believing that there is a magic way to not be held liable or accountable. The best course, in my humble and non-lawyer opinion is to share the stories of people like Ed Brown, Irwin Schiff and Richard Simkanin who ended up in jail for believing the garbage that they peddled and/or swallowed. You can find threads and archives on these individuals, all of whom died or will die in prison due to their actions. If that doesn't convince the family, nothing will.

[JamesVincent]

Welcome aboard!

As the good Capn said theres not much else you can do. The facts are out there that the 'sovrun ideology and what they attempt to do wont work at best and is highly illegal at worst. There have been plenty of cases come through here and will be noted and references provided in the forum section dealing with 'sovruns. Since they also are involved as tax protestors there are also plenty of cases and references for that part of it also. A lot of these people seem to be also highly dangerous to everyone around them so getting some distance is definitely a good idea. Im sorry to hear that your friend got involved in it. There is also a forum article about a 'sovrun whose wife divorced him and she came on and explained a little bit of what happened in the divorce and their life preceding the divorce.

There is plenty of precedent out there to disprove the whole theory but it all depends on whether someone listens to it and reads up on it and it sounds like your friend isnt going to.

[Pottapaug1938]

Welcome to Quatloos, LandofOz.

When I was growing up in the 60s, I read an article about grifters and other scam artists. The article quoted a man who got wealthy by traveling on transatlantic ocean liners and playing cards with his marks. Often, the mark would be the one to propose the game, but the offer would be declined "because I'm a professional gambler, and it wouldn't be fair to you." The mark almost always insisted on trying his luck against a pro, and always got cleaned out if he did. "My job was to make the mark WANT to give me his money", the gambler said.

So it is with sovrun scam artists. For whatever reason (usually, in my opinion, stemming from a combination of ignorance and a sense of inferiority), the marks feel a desperate need to explain away their lack of success (or lack of what they feel is ENOUGH success) in their lives by casting about for a politically plausible and palatable theory which will make them feel all warm and fuzzy inside from having (drum roll, please) Been Let In On The Secret. They feel that they are now Warriors, Standing Tall For The Cause; and they will fight, tooth and nail, against anyone who tries to confuse them with facts and law. They will adopt any explanation (often having to do with "corruption" or "self-interest" of the opponent who feeds on The System) that explains why their opponents are trying to "suppress the truth and keep Us enslaved."

They are political junkies. They have to keep shooting sovrun smack into their mental veins in order to remain happy; and like all addicts neither end result is pretty: they either sober up and look back on a destroyed life, or else they OD on sovrunity and spend most if not all of the rest of their lives poor and a guest of the Graybar Hotel. I'm also reminded of a line from my grandfather's 1918 Bluejacket's Manual, in which the Navy discusses the consequences of desertion. The manual points out that a deserter's family often suffers more than the deserter, since while in Naval prison he at least is fed, while his family has to scramble for the means to support itself without him. Look back through the archives, and you will see many instances where sovruns have brought disaster, not just on themselves, but on their families as well.

Good luck, LandofOz!

[Judge Roy Bean]

As stated above - welcome to Quatloos!

To understand the mental processes you're working against, you have to first understand that some of these people believe this stuff with almost religious fervor and 'converts' are the hardest to dissuade.

'Belief' is often sufficient to throw their lives into chaos and in cases I've dealt with, it comes about rather suddenly as a hoped-for solution for some kind of financial or legal/family crisis.

As to what to do, my first recommendation is to get together with the other parties involved and formulate a plan to deal with who-does-what when he's incarcerated for an extended period. Depending on the state and county you live in, if he has actually filed the liens he has possibly committed a felony and he will be prosecuted. The parties he filed the liens against can also bring civil charges against him.

Spouses wind up picking up the physical/emotional and economic slack; if kids are involved the lone parent is suddenly the only driver/cook/bottlewasher/tutor, and not to sound chauvanistic, there are chores some women rely on their spouse to do.

The private/family support network is crucial.

[Pottapaug1938]

Here's a good story, from www.coinflation.com, of how marks WANT to give scammers their money:

http://journalstar.com/news/local/crime ... fac6e.html

This guy was warned, by the police, not to go through with the meeting; but he did and got taken.

[LandofOz]

Thanks so much for the responses. I believe that if I can explain sufficently enough to his father in particular that I can at least help shield the family from the garbage he is likely to bring to their doorstep. I know I will never change his mind on the subject because he already believes so wholeheartedly that he is in fact sovereign. It seems the harder I push the deeper he digs in like most have pointed out. He also met these fools in church so the religious comparison makes a lot of sense.

I e-mailed some info to his father this afternoon including a link to this site as well as links to the FBI, ADL, and SPLC and some of the recent court cases involving the movement (thanks to my Con law and judicial review professors for helping me get organized). I will be going to see his father tomorrow to sit down and explain to him what some of the info entails. Since he is living in his father's house this is the least I can do to prepare his father for what may be coming.

Thanks again everyone. I am definitely sticking around this site as I have now made it a priority of mine to educate myself and others on this issue. My main focus in getting my degrees was to help combat terrorism overseas, but now I have a new mission, exposing these groups for what they really are and combatting this "paper terrorism" at home. The government has flaws to be sure but defrauding the system is not a prudent way to go about fixing the problems.

One more thing, I'm in Florida and it seems to be a relatively new breeding ground for these types. But please correct me if I'm wrong and they have been active here for a while.

[Dr. Caligari]

Welcome to Quatloos, LandofOz! good luck in your endeavors.

[Pottapaug1938]

The reference to your friend meeting the scammers in church screams "affinity fraud" to me. Time after time, I've heard of people getting scammed by someone they met at or through their house of worship. The marks just can't BELIEVE that someone as (outwardly) Godly as the scammer could EVER steer them wrong.

In Massachusetts, the Swift River Valley was flooded, beginning in 1939, to provide a reservoir for Boston's drinking water (of course, the people moved, the buildings were moved or demolished, and the graves were moved, before that happened). One of the things from the Valley that survived is a book of stories entitled "Ez"; and in one of the stories we see a church deacon, who also deals in "stock" (i.e., farm animals) singing a hymn very beautifully within earshot of someone with whom he's just made a horse trade. Of course, the dealer was known as a "sharp trader" (which is a polite way of saying that he got a way with giving much less value than he ever received in a trade); and his church position and public image as a pious man was one erason why he did. If you didn't want to get "skinned" in a trade with the deacon, you avoided trading with him.

Sadly, the deacon has many a modern counterpart.

[wserra]

So, if I may ask, any advice?

Follow the yellow brick road, of course. (All the other appropriate advice has already been rendered.)

Welcome to Quatloos.

[Brandybuck]

Your friend may be hopeless, but explaining to his family doesn't have to be. Just give a simple explanation: "Sovruns think they don't have to obey the law and make up highly complicated legalistic rationales excuses for not obeying the same laws you and I have to. They frequently find themselves in jail over otherwise trivial issues because of their obstinate behavior. They are delusional."

[notorial dissent]

Welcome to Quatloos, most of the main points have already been stated, and there really isn't too much beyond that to add. Your friend is basically involved in one variety of fraud or another, and looking to drag anyone else he can in with him, and that is pretty much the best that can be said of it.

I personally like the term sovrun idiotology, as it pretty well sums it all up.

[Assessor]

Feign interest and ask him about all of the amazing success stories of other sovereign citizens. They have been around for about 30 years in various guises, so there should be thousands of glorious successes that didn't end in prison terms or shoot-outs, right? Don't let him get by with accounts of tough talk and big promises by others. Ask about results in the real world. Point out how bitter and sullen all of these wonderful patriots appear, and how miserably they live. Ask him to point out (very specifically) what they did wrong, and how he would (very specifically) avoid those mistakes. If he doesn't have a clear answer, then suggest that he is in over his head and that should figure those things out before he makes such a big commitment.

If he responds with "The time isn't right yet", or "The courts are corrupt", then suggest that he wait until the time is right or the courts have been reformed. Suggest that he let the "guru" do the "heavy lifting" first. Then he can take advantage of the "guru's" successes. He's already in on the secret, after all. The magic will still work later on, won't it?

Ask him why his "guru" hasn't tapped into his secret Treasury account to support his family, church, and friends. And when the "guru" asks him for money, suggest that the "guru" draw it from his secret Treasury account instead.

Compile information on the "guru" and the promises made and stories told. You will see a pattern of shifting lies and vague excuses. If you can break the credibility of the "guru", then you are halfway there. It has to be approached obliquely, though. Saying that the "guru" is a fraud and a loser won't work very well. Instead, present yourself as someone who would like to believe, but who sees that things just don't add up. This puts you in the position of being his bridge back to reality, if it should come to that.

Remember, this is really no different from any other mind-control cult that operates on religious ideas. The tools employed are identical, though the ostensible goals are legal principles rather than religious principles. People will accept dire consequences if they believe that the cause is right, so the key is to break the idea that the cause is right - not that there will be dire consequences.

[ashlynne39]

Point the family to the FBI webpage labeling Sovereign Citizen Groups as Domestic Terror groups.

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/ap ... ens_041310

[Joey Smith]

I suggest that you start an e-mail dialogue with Mr. David Merrill, who frequents these boards. His clear and concise explanations will be most enlightening.

[Arthur Rubin]

I suggest that you start an e-mail dialogue with Mr. David Merrill, who frequents these boards. His clear and concise explanations will be most enlightening.

Come now, LandofOz at least appeared to be serious. (Speaking of which, where is van Pelt?)

Oh, and welcome to Quatloos, LandofOz. I think the best you can do is to let the family know what the consequences are, and what to do in order to legally separate their assets from the ones which will be seized.

[webhick]

I suggest you sic the radioactive hamsters on him. They're really loyal, glow in the dark, and that extra set of legs really makes it impossible for your intended target to outrun them.