Italy: Ms. Prof wants to go to Italy this Fall-- probably in late September or early October. Comments and recommendations would be welcome. I intend to take at least 2 weeks and probably 3 weeks. This would be our first trip to Italy (we have been to London and Scotland and Paris over the years, but never made it to Italy). Questions:
1. Should we devote about 10 days to cruising from Rome to Venice and then take a train to Florence and Rome? Or, would it make more sense to go around Italy by train?
2. Should be try to combine a visit to Athens and/or Istanbul and Selcuk (Ephesus) with this trip?
3. Would a mid-Summer trip, say in July, be less expensive?
Thanks -- your suggestions and comments will be appreciated.
Italy
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The Dog
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Re: Italy
Italian railways do not have the best reputation, Mussolini might have made them run on time, but the knack has since been lost. Have you considered hiring a car?Prof wrote:Questions:
1. Should we devote about 10 days to cruising from Rome to Venice and then take a train to Florence and Rome? Or, would it make more sense to go around Italy by train?
Really up to you, but I can't help feeling that you will spend more time travelling than actually seeing things.Prof wrote: 2. Should be try to combine a visit to Athens and/or Istanbul and Selcuk (Ephesus) with this trip?
Probably more expensive. Italy is a popular destination for families from the UK and Germany. Consequently, the hotels tend to fill up during school holiday periods. This Englishman tends to find Venice in particular unbearably hot (not to mention grotesquely overcrowded) in July. The downside to going later in the year is that the closer you are to the equinox the wetter it gets underfoot at high tide.Prof wrote: 3. Would a mid-Summer trip, say in July, be less expensive?
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Demosthenes
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Re: Italy
Summer in Italy kind of sucks unless you're at the beach. It's hot, humid, and many stores and restaurants are closed in late July and August because everyone in Italy is at the beach. Fall is much better.
I'd stick to Italy and forget the cruise. If you're a history and/or art buff, Italy is ... well, you know.
Demo's 2-3 week dream holiday plan for Italy:
Venice
4 days - it isn't that big and you don't need more time than that
Favorite hotel
Locanda Orseolo http://www.locandaorseolo.com/ - an easy walk from the San Marco water bus stop or even better, you enter the hotel from a water taxi by climbing through a large window. It's clean, beautiful, classy, the rooms are large (for Italy), and reasonably priced. The lemon crepes at breakfast are memorable.
Must sees
Window shopping on San Marco Square (gold is prohibitively expensive these days...)
Plan a day trip to Murano Island - watch the glass makers, and go see the mosaics at the Church of Santa Maria
Purchase some inexpensive glass jewelry for every female in your family. The stuff is dirt cheap in the gift shops in Venice and really expensive in the US.
The Doges Palace
The Campanile
San Marco Basilica
Food: Nothing earth-shattering.
Splurge - Buy your wife a piece of Venini art glass as a souvenir and ship it home
Note: Be a good sport when traveling to Venice. If the waters are high, you'll need to get around in plastic boots on wooden raised platforms. The hotel has boots and umbrellas to loan to guests.
Florence
6 or 7 days - there's a *lot* to see and do
Seriously, this is my favorite place in Italy. You have to love a city that hit its peak in 1490, stopped growing, and has maintained itself beautifully ever since.
Favorite hotel:
The Lungarno Suites - http://www.lungarnohotels.com/ - One of the classiest and best located hotels in the city. You can easily walk to everything. They run a lot of specials, which bring their rate to the same level as the less classy places, so be sure to ask or a good rate when you book, or check the website for discounts.
Things to see:
There are seriously too many things to list, but in addition to the obvious stuff like The Duomo, the Uffizi, Michelangelo’s David, and the Ponte Vecchio, be sure to see the smaller stuff like Dante's home and church, Galileo's museum, and the early Michelangelo works at Casa Buonarroti.
Also, walk up the Piazzale Michelangelo for an ice cream and kick ass view. Florence had 100,000 people living there in the 15th century, and only 400,000 people live there today, so the original Renaissance buildings still dominate the skyline.
Food: My favorite restaurant by far is Quattro Leoni. The food is unbelievably good and the restaurant is housed in a square that used to be brothel central for Florence. The restaurant dates back to 1550. If the pear/asparagus/five cheese pasta is available, don't miss it. Otherwise, go for the veal chop. http://www.4leoni.com/index.php
Splurge: Hire an art historian as a private tour guide for a half day. In the US, the cool kids all want to become rock stars and movie actors. In Florence, they want to be art historians. Tell the guide the kinds of things that interest you and they'll design the half day around you. They get to skip the long lines at places like the Uffizi, which is worth at least an hour of your time. You'll see stuff you'd never see otherwise.
Shopping Splurge: Find a good leather craftsman and have a leather jacket custom made while you're in town. It's cheaper than you'd think, especially along the Via del Parione. The Ponte Vecchio shopping is fun but too expensive with the exception of one leather shop at the south end. Also, be sure to check out locally made stonework, ceramics, mosaics, and high end paper products. If you chat up the store keeps and ask if the products are made in Florence, you'll often get an offer to see the craftsmen work in person.
There are a lot of day trip opportunities from Florence with a busy train system. The medieval city of Sienna is worth a trip but I wouldn't bother with Pisa.
Tip: Read Irving Stone's The Agony and the Ecstasy while wandering around the city.
Rome
7 days, there’s so much to see, you can’t really do much in less time
Favorite hotel:
Hotel Eliseo http://www.hoteleliseoroma.it/ - Granted, this place isn’t as elegant at the ones I recommended in Venice and Florence, but it is reasonably priced (very hard to find in Rome), has an elevator, is clean, air conditioned, the rooms are comfy, the view of the Vatican and Villa Borghese gardens is outstanding, and you can walk or take the metro to everything. The included breakfast buffet is pretty good too.
Things to see:
Do I even have to tell you? Walking through the streets of the Forum is an awesome experience.
Food:
Tons of good options, but if you want a special treat that not too expensive, plan to eat lunch one day at Da Orazio restaurant. It’s built of the site of Horace’s home and the garden setting is really pleasant.
Splurge:
Hire a car and driver for a day to take you out to Hadrian’s Villa to poke around, and then to Lake by Castel Gandolfo for lunch. The views are stellar and the mozzarella is worth the trip. http://www.pagnanelli.it/ristorante-sul ... dolfo.html We use a driver named Salvatore who has an air-conditioned Mercedes, and is a licensed tour guide to boot.
Warning: If you take the Rome metro, the gypsies will steal everything you have. Leave all valuables at home.
Getting from city to city by train is fine. The trains run often, aren't expensive, and the stations are located near the center of everything. The only negatives I’ve had with Italian transit is that the air conditioning isn’t always functional. Upgrade to first class and take an express, whenever possible. For example, the express train from Florence to Rome takes about 1.5 hours, and is $47 for second class, $64 for first. In comparison, the local train takes almost four hours and is $26 for second class, $39 for first.
My two bits, indexed for inflation.
I'd stick to Italy and forget the cruise. If you're a history and/or art buff, Italy is ... well, you know.
Demo's 2-3 week dream holiday plan for Italy:
Venice
4 days - it isn't that big and you don't need more time than that
Favorite hotel
Locanda Orseolo http://www.locandaorseolo.com/ - an easy walk from the San Marco water bus stop or even better, you enter the hotel from a water taxi by climbing through a large window. It's clean, beautiful, classy, the rooms are large (for Italy), and reasonably priced. The lemon crepes at breakfast are memorable.
Must sees
Window shopping on San Marco Square (gold is prohibitively expensive these days...)
Plan a day trip to Murano Island - watch the glass makers, and go see the mosaics at the Church of Santa Maria
Purchase some inexpensive glass jewelry for every female in your family. The stuff is dirt cheap in the gift shops in Venice and really expensive in the US.
The Doges Palace
The Campanile
San Marco Basilica
Food: Nothing earth-shattering.
Splurge - Buy your wife a piece of Venini art glass as a souvenir and ship it home
Note: Be a good sport when traveling to Venice. If the waters are high, you'll need to get around in plastic boots on wooden raised platforms. The hotel has boots and umbrellas to loan to guests.
Florence
6 or 7 days - there's a *lot* to see and do
Seriously, this is my favorite place in Italy. You have to love a city that hit its peak in 1490, stopped growing, and has maintained itself beautifully ever since.
Favorite hotel:
The Lungarno Suites - http://www.lungarnohotels.com/ - One of the classiest and best located hotels in the city. You can easily walk to everything. They run a lot of specials, which bring their rate to the same level as the less classy places, so be sure to ask or a good rate when you book, or check the website for discounts.
Things to see:
There are seriously too many things to list, but in addition to the obvious stuff like The Duomo, the Uffizi, Michelangelo’s David, and the Ponte Vecchio, be sure to see the smaller stuff like Dante's home and church, Galileo's museum, and the early Michelangelo works at Casa Buonarroti.
Also, walk up the Piazzale Michelangelo for an ice cream and kick ass view. Florence had 100,000 people living there in the 15th century, and only 400,000 people live there today, so the original Renaissance buildings still dominate the skyline.
Food: My favorite restaurant by far is Quattro Leoni. The food is unbelievably good and the restaurant is housed in a square that used to be brothel central for Florence. The restaurant dates back to 1550. If the pear/asparagus/five cheese pasta is available, don't miss it. Otherwise, go for the veal chop. http://www.4leoni.com/index.php
Splurge: Hire an art historian as a private tour guide for a half day. In the US, the cool kids all want to become rock stars and movie actors. In Florence, they want to be art historians. Tell the guide the kinds of things that interest you and they'll design the half day around you. They get to skip the long lines at places like the Uffizi, which is worth at least an hour of your time. You'll see stuff you'd never see otherwise.
Shopping Splurge: Find a good leather craftsman and have a leather jacket custom made while you're in town. It's cheaper than you'd think, especially along the Via del Parione. The Ponte Vecchio shopping is fun but too expensive with the exception of one leather shop at the south end. Also, be sure to check out locally made stonework, ceramics, mosaics, and high end paper products. If you chat up the store keeps and ask if the products are made in Florence, you'll often get an offer to see the craftsmen work in person.
There are a lot of day trip opportunities from Florence with a busy train system. The medieval city of Sienna is worth a trip but I wouldn't bother with Pisa.
Tip: Read Irving Stone's The Agony and the Ecstasy while wandering around the city.
Rome
7 days, there’s so much to see, you can’t really do much in less time
Favorite hotel:
Hotel Eliseo http://www.hoteleliseoroma.it/ - Granted, this place isn’t as elegant at the ones I recommended in Venice and Florence, but it is reasonably priced (very hard to find in Rome), has an elevator, is clean, air conditioned, the rooms are comfy, the view of the Vatican and Villa Borghese gardens is outstanding, and you can walk or take the metro to everything. The included breakfast buffet is pretty good too.
Things to see:
Do I even have to tell you? Walking through the streets of the Forum is an awesome experience.
Food:
Tons of good options, but if you want a special treat that not too expensive, plan to eat lunch one day at Da Orazio restaurant. It’s built of the site of Horace’s home and the garden setting is really pleasant.
Splurge:
Hire a car and driver for a day to take you out to Hadrian’s Villa to poke around, and then to Lake by Castel Gandolfo for lunch. The views are stellar and the mozzarella is worth the trip. http://www.pagnanelli.it/ristorante-sul ... dolfo.html We use a driver named Salvatore who has an air-conditioned Mercedes, and is a licensed tour guide to boot.
Warning: If you take the Rome metro, the gypsies will steal everything you have. Leave all valuables at home.
Getting from city to city by train is fine. The trains run often, aren't expensive, and the stations are located near the center of everything. The only negatives I’ve had with Italian transit is that the air conditioning isn’t always functional. Upgrade to first class and take an express, whenever possible. For example, the express train from Florence to Rome takes about 1.5 hours, and is $47 for second class, $64 for first. In comparison, the local train takes almost four hours and is $26 for second class, $39 for first.
My two bits, indexed for inflation.
Demo.
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The Dog
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Re: Italy
To add to Demo:
Pisa can be reached quite easily as a day excursion from Florence (and is best so visited).
Bologna is very cramped and claustrophobic although the "Due Torri" are worth a look
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Towers_of_Bologna
Padua can be reached easily from Venice, a nice place if rather badly damaged in the last war.
For scenery, the area around Lake Garda can be recommended. Not easy by public transport, (an excursion from Verona would probably be easiest) and definitely try to avoid in mid summer.
Pompeii (on the coast south of Naples) should certainly be considered. Naples itself has little to recommend it.
Pisa can be reached quite easily as a day excursion from Florence (and is best so visited).
Bologna is very cramped and claustrophobic although the "Due Torri" are worth a look
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Towers_of_Bologna
Padua can be reached easily from Venice, a nice place if rather badly damaged in the last war.
For scenery, the area around Lake Garda can be recommended. Not easy by public transport, (an excursion from Verona would probably be easiest) and definitely try to avoid in mid summer.
Pompeii (on the coast south of Naples) should certainly be considered. Naples itself has little to recommend it.
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Prof
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Re: Italy
Thank you all -- so far -- , and I hope there is more to come. The advice is really appreciated.
By the way, my wife is a potter and art major; I was a history major, though I'm stronger in modern than classical, and Italy is almost as interesting in the modern era as in the classical period.
By the way, my wife is a potter and art major; I was a history major, though I'm stronger in modern than classical, and Italy is almost as interesting in the modern era as in the classical period.
"My Health is Better in November."
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Lambkin
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Re: Italy
After our last trip to Rome in Fall 2006 we resolved to find a place to stay farther from the downtown area, probably on the other side of the river, in a more quiet neighborhood.
My favorite Italy vacation experience was visiting small towns along the shores of Lake Garda, by foot and boat.
My favorite Italy vacation experience was visiting small towns along the shores of Lake Garda, by foot and boat.
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The Dog
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Re: Italy
I've just come across these two newspaper items that might be of interest:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/desti ... -2011.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/desti ... -2011.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/desti ... -2011.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/desti ... -2011.html
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The Dog
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Re: Italy
Fresh back from Milan, we have just learned the hard way that access to The Last Supper at Santa Maria delle Grazie in Milan is severely restricted. You have to book in advance at:
http://www.vivaticket.it/evento.php?id_ ... language=1
Italian Railways are generally rather cheaper (if somewhat slower) than their UK counterparts. I should have added advice to the effect that having bought a ticket, you must stamp it in the little orange machine at the platform entrance before boarding the train. If the machine doesn't work (or if you were unable to buy a ticket at the station), go and find the guard - do not wait for him to come to you (or you will be fined). The preceding advice also applies in France by the way. Again unlike the UK, there is little financial incentive to buy return rail tickets. It's best to buy singles (unless travelling on a line where seat reservation is mandatory).
We made two excursions, one to Bergamo, an older town atop a hill with some interesting churches and a lower town (less of a tourist trap, but still interesting) below.
The second was to Lake Como. Como itself has the air of a 19th Century resort town, but we didn't get to spend much time there. Bellagio, at the point where the lake forks, is a truly awful tourist trap (save for a nice church). We took the ferry across to Varenna where we had a beautiful "fritto misto" of lake fish overlooking the lake. There is also a walkway along the lakeside connecting the ferry terminus to the main village. To our surprise (given the size of the place), it also has an hourly rail service to Milan.
The country is celebrating the 150th anniversary of unification, so there are a lot of flags out.
[Edited to add a couple of extra bits on 13 April]
http://www.vivaticket.it/evento.php?id_ ... language=1
Italian Railways are generally rather cheaper (if somewhat slower) than their UK counterparts. I should have added advice to the effect that having bought a ticket, you must stamp it in the little orange machine at the platform entrance before boarding the train. If the machine doesn't work (or if you were unable to buy a ticket at the station), go and find the guard - do not wait for him to come to you (or you will be fined). The preceding advice also applies in France by the way. Again unlike the UK, there is little financial incentive to buy return rail tickets. It's best to buy singles (unless travelling on a line where seat reservation is mandatory).
We made two excursions, one to Bergamo, an older town atop a hill with some interesting churches and a lower town (less of a tourist trap, but still interesting) below.
The second was to Lake Como. Como itself has the air of a 19th Century resort town, but we didn't get to spend much time there. Bellagio, at the point where the lake forks, is a truly awful tourist trap (save for a nice church). We took the ferry across to Varenna where we had a beautiful "fritto misto" of lake fish overlooking the lake. There is also a walkway along the lakeside connecting the ferry terminus to the main village. To our surprise (given the size of the place), it also has an hourly rail service to Milan.
The country is celebrating the 150th anniversary of unification, so there are a lot of flags out.
[Edited to add a couple of extra bits on 13 April]
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Famspear
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Re: Italy
Wait! Wait! I have a suggestion!Prof wrote:Leaving tomorrow for 3 weeks; thanks for all of the suggestions.
Take me wiiiiiiiiiiiiitthhhhh youuuuu!
Oh well......
I know nothing about Italy, so I have no constructive comments....
....just have a good trip!
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
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Prof
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Re: Italy
Rome is amazing and we saw the Sistine with at least 10,000 of our new best friends. Cinq Terre beautiful, Pisa in 2 hours. Now 2 days in Siena to relax before Florence.
"My Health is Better in November."
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Prof
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Re: Italy
Three weeks in Italy is not enough. Thanks again for all of the good advice. By the way, the crowds were awful, particularly in Venice. We were never able to get into St. Mark's, although we did get in the Doge's Palace. Next time, if there is one, I'll go in February!
Saw the David, by the way, thought it anatomically correct, period. And, after 2 nights in Siena, I want to move there, even if it is up and down and around.
Saw the David, by the way, thought it anatomically correct, period. And, after 2 nights in Siena, I want to move there, even if it is up and down and around.
"My Health is Better in November."