From Whence It Came

[Prof]

I think I can provide some information and satisfy your complaint about our (sometimes sophomoric) level of humor.

The "strawman" and redemption theories have been floating around for years. In some form or fashion, proponents assert, there is an account created as Americans are born. The account reflects the "sale" of the "strawman" to support the national debt (usually stated to be a sale to the Queen in London).

Various gurus have described ways to access this account. Often, the "bonded promissory note" is used to pay for debt with the account.

As best I can tell, the OID paperwork is another attempt to access that account.

I sorry I cannot be more specific, but I find it hard to follow the arguments and theories, all of which apply statutes and find case law or statutory remedies that I know are incorrect or do not exist.

I have trouble following -- or remaining interested in -- the theories of these buffoons.

I suppose, as a moderator of this section, I should sit down and sort all of this stuff out, but I haven't.

Hope this helps.

[Prof]

Second comment. I think your best research tool is actually the internet, where most of these theories "reside" (other than in disturbed minds, that is). Once you listen to or read
enough about the OID and its relationship to redemption, you may have a pretty good outline of the argument and its "factual" underpinnings.

From that point, a visit to a library -- particularly a county bar association law library, which is usually free to the public-- will enable you to review the statutes and case law cited; a good general library should have enough history materials to allow you to review the "historical facts" underly the theory/theories.

Good luck. Send me a pm if you need help organizing your research strategy and I will try to help.

[webhick]

I got scammed by a local sov'run tax preparer and now I want to expose it all for the bullshit that it really is.

Sorry to hear about your problems. One good way to expose the preparer is to report him/her to the IRS: http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,, ... 48,00.html (the information for reporting is at the very bottom). Notifying the Attorney General's office in your state would be another step. Well, not in my state since we've crippled the Attorney General's office to the point where I'm not even sure why we have one at all.

Details about how you were scammed may also help potential victims avoid it in the future. Details like which tax scam he/she was peddling/utilizing, how you came across this person, how you got roped in, etc.

[wserra]

Use this site's "search" function for specific aspects of what you're looking for. There is quite a bit of information right here; it just isn't organized into a book.

Maybe one day.

[Number Six]

I got scammed by a local sov'run tax preparer and now I want to expose it all for the bullshit that it really is.

Sorry to hear about your problems. One good way to expose the preparer is to report him/her to the IRS: http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,, ... 48,00.html (the information for reporting is at the very bottom). Notifying the Attorney General's office in your state would be another step. Well, not in my state since we've crippled the Attorney General's office to the point where I'm not even sure why we have one at all.

Details about how you were scammed may also help potential victims avoid it in the future. Details like which tax scam he/she was peddling/utilizing, how you came across this person, how you got roped in, etc.

Document the fraud as thoroughly as possible. Provide the evidence to your state AG; actually my state AG is quite effective, they got results on two out of three cases I sent them. Provide a copy of the fraud to your local IRS office which has additional forms. Contact your state and federal representatives to let them know. You could also blog, either anonymously or with your actual name to blacken the name of the scammer to the point where he/her may feel threatened enough to sue for defamation, that would actually be an encouraging sign. If you want to spend some real bucks you could hire a gumshoe to dig up as much dirt as possible on the fraudster and see if the authorities are interested enough to take him down. Last resort would be putting out a hit; I don't recommend that, it could boomerang. The rip-off artist has no scruples, the only thing that will stop these people is stern law enforcement.

[AndyK]

If the person is marketing a tax scam which is costing the government dollars, TIGTA, Criminal Investigation, and the FBI would all be willing to hear you out.

If you're in IRS trouble for following his advice, definitely turn him in with as much detail as you can. Your cooperation could significantly reduce your IRS troubles.

[Prince Of Rupertland]

Few people would guess that the movement got its start within the Southern California religious, scientific, and aerospace communities in the 1950s...

This is the nugget of information that I find most fascinating. I don't want to go off on some conspiracy theory rant, but I just have to ask this question - is there any connection at all to Jack Parsons and L. Ron Hubbard?

[JamesVincent]

Few people would guess that the movement got its start within the Southern California religious, scientific, and aerospace communities in the 1950s...

This is the nugget of information that I find most fascinating. I don't want to go off on some conspiracy theory rant, but I just have to ask this question - is there any connection at all to Jack Parsons and L. Ron Hubbard?

lol.... Everything goes back to L. Ron Hubbard at some point.

[notorial dissent]

Prince Of Rupertland, first welcome, and second, my apologies for some of our over enthusiastic members who sometimes can’t seem to remember how to answer a simple question.

First and foremost, please remember that with all of these topics we are treading in to the realm of not so purest fantasy, but fantasy none the less. I can’t give you the exact origins, but as has been stated here previously, it goes back many years beyond us. That being said, what it is. As previously stated it is from beginning to end fantasy liberally laced with just enough bits and pieces of truth to keep it sounding genuine.

The OID(Original Issue Discount) is the most recent version that the tax denier crowd's list of tax fraud items. It really is a valid tax form that is filed by people who have previously paid tax on an investment item and are wanting credit for it on their tax returns. The thing that is being done with it currently is that they are being filed with outlandish amounts on them and submitted with their regular tax forms to get all kinds of money back. It generally works for a while until the system ultimately catches it and kicks it out, at which point the lucky recipient owes a boatload of money, past taxes, interest, and usually some really staggering penalties, and may even get processed for tax fraud and a nice quite room at the gray bar hotel.

"Accepted For Value" is again a real thing, just having absolutely nothing to do with what ever they are trying to apply it to. It comes out of the UCC, which ONLY applies to specific commercial transactions, and then only under very specific conditions, whereas this crowd is trying to use them to pay bill, pay or void tickets, and generally deal with anything they want to ignore otherwise. Again, pure fantasy. A prime example would be someone taking the remittance document received with a statement and returning it singed marked "Accepted For Value" and expecting it to have satisfied the payment due.

The rest are in a similar vein, all fantasy, all based on some teeny tiny kernel of reality.

[Prince Of Rupertland]

You see, this is where I got suckered in. The way it was presented to me, it didn't at all seem flakey, and in fact seemed like a good idea at the time. I guess it supports that old quote "a lie is best told when concealed between two truths".

[The Observer]

Prince Of Rupertland, first welcome, and second, my apologies for some of our over enthusiastic members who sometimes can’t seem to remember how to answer a simple question..

But see, that is the problem. Prince's question wasn't simple - and you pointed that out in so many words in your answer. I daresay that you have not answered his question fully either. No one here had a problem with Prince asking the question in the first place, but it could not be answered in the time frame that he was expecting. And that is where the friction started.

Any question that is based on the origins of any of the whacky TP arguments out there is going to take time to research and answer. For better or worse, we have not organized and put into a FAQ format the information and items we have encountered over the years. Dan (LPC) has a wonderful FAQ on many of the theories out there dealing with the legalities/illegalities of their arguments and I think he has established a wiki on some of the better known TPs out there with a summary bio on their antics. And if you can get to the old original Quatloos home page that has the links to the Quatloos Hall of Shame you can some dig up some nuggets of information on the usual suspects and their theories as well.

But all of the above takes time and effort. Most of us here work for a living, so that removes a motivation to spending the time necessary. And I am simply not going to answer off the top of my head to a question that requires a detailed answer. I took Prince's question as being sincere and thus felt he deserved a better and more honest answer than giving him fluff. He sounds like a discerning person that would have seen through such an answer as being fluff.

I have toyed with the ideal of setting the information up on TPs and making it a organized resource and linking to other available resources, but that is going to be something that I can only do once I make it into retirement. I simply don't have the time available.

So backhanding us by way of your reply to Prince for not answering a "simple question" is not really fair, notorial.

[Prof]

What Observer said is correct. Maybe when I retire, I'll spend the time (weeks) to try to track down the origin of this now-Internet myth. It would be an almost full time project for at least a month, I think.

[webhick]

For better or worse, we have not organized and put into a FAQ format the information and items we have encountered over the years.

Doing a wiki site for things like that might be an idea. We could call it QuatWiki or WikiQuat. Not update-able by just anyone, though, lest it be defaced by sovereign wackos.

[JamesVincent]

You see, this is where I got suckered in. The way it was presented to me, it didn't at all seem flakey, and in fact seemed like a good idea at the time. I guess it supports that old quote "a lie is best told when concealed between two truths".

The only problem is neither one is truth. A half truth and a half truth combined still dont make a full truth.

[wserra]

Doing a wiki site for things like that might be an idea. We could call it QuatWiki or WikiQuat. Not update-able by just anyone, though, lest it be defaced by sovereign wackos.

Oh, great. Something else I'd really be interested in doing that I have no time to do.

Curse you, Red Baron.

[The Observer]

Doing a wiki site for things like that might be an idea. We could call it QuatWiki or WikiQuat. Not update-able by just anyone, though, lest it be defaced by sovereign wackos.

It would be more likely that I would be the first person to deface it. I have this twisted idea about putting up the organizational chart of Quatloos.

[JamesVincent]

Doing a wiki site for things like that might be an idea. We could call it QuatWiki or WikiQuat. Not update-able by just anyone, though, lest it be defaced by sovereign wackos.

It would be more likely that I would be the first person to deface it. I have this twisted idea about putting up the organizational chart of Quatloos.

[Gregg]

It would be more likely that I would be the first person to deface it. I have this twisted idea about putting up the organizational chart of Quatloos.

Right after we find the last digit of π

We always do the easy ones first.

[AndyK]

Doing a wiki site for things like that might be an idea. We could call it QuatWiki or WikiQuat. Not update-able by just anyone, though, lest it be defaced by sovereign wackos.

It would be more likely that I would be the first person to deface it. I have this twisted idea about putting up the organizational chart of Quatloos.

No problem. Just post the picture of a skein of yarn after the melon-helmeted cat finished playing with it -- preferably with the cat still entangled in its center.

[AndyK]

No. Vice versa.