"Heldharmless"

[notorial dissent]

Ok. I was actually looking for answers, but I can see you have no interest in providing help. You are not looking for answers, you are looking for someone to agree with your fantasy, not going to happen around here. You've already been given, repeatedly I might add, answers and information and you have ignored and disregarded all of it.No those are not them. At all. Hire your own asset protection law firm and they will explain them to you. I'm not the one asking the questions, you claim you have answers and then can't come up with them.

They don't mention anything about that and since that is not the product I'm interested in I haven't done any investigation on the method they use.
And yet you keep bringing it up.

So just to clarify, you don't have any real objections except it doesn't seem right or make sense to you?
I'm sorry, did you miss the part about it being a crock, a fantasy, a fraud? Just checking, didn't want to accuse you of paying attention if you weren't.

There is a common strategy in protecting assets by placing a lien against them which would have to be repaid by anyone who would attempt to collect on them. Sometimes it fails when people try to do it themselves because they use insiders only. So I guess it depends on how they have it all wrapped up and what the language and terms are...if that is the strategy they are even using. Common, I don't know about that, but certainly fraud, illegal, and a good way to get yourself in much more trouble, but the key things here are fraud and dishonest, oh, and did I mention, doesn't work, you do know what those mean I trust? That was sarcasm just so we're on the same page.

I am actually looking for real help. Does anyone on this site have any knowledge of their mortgage products or any real world experience with them? No, you are not!! See my previous comment. There is nothing about these clowns that is legit, after having been told that repeatedly by everyone here, why would this be any different? Also, since that has never entered the discussion prior to this moment, why should anyone have answered you?

[wserra]

I am actually looking for real help. Does anyone on this site have any knowledge of their mortgage products or any real world experience with them?

You say, "OK, their idea about an insurance substitute is a complete ripoff, but maybe they've got something on mortgages"? Promising.

Are you talking about this? That's a blog entry, not a plan. The only description of any plan I find is "Coming soon - 2011". From the blog entry:

many creative Buyers and Sellers of real estate (including listing agents and brokers) have found that using a Whole HARMLESS Advantage Plan is great for securing or guaranteeing mortgage financing:

MORTGAGE GUARANTEE: The NUMBER ONE reason homes are not selling today is because Buyers are NOT FINANCIALLY QUALIFYING. Even if they can afford the payments, they do not have the liquid assets to satisfy the newest and toughest banking requirements. Until Now:

Buying a Home? Let Whole HARMLESS Advantage provide the extra security, collateral or guarantee to get your mortgage approved.

Selling a Home? Help your Buyer get that "approval" by listing a Whole HARMLESS Advantage Plan as a liquid-cash available asset.

That's even more ridiculous than their "shield from liability" nonsense. Why? What bank is ever going to take a promise from "HoldHarmless.com" as collateral on a mortgage? You're delusional if you think a bank will do anything other than laugh and throw you out. And, if you're selling your home, you would use an asset of yours as collateral for the buyer's mortgage? Why couldn't the buyer just default and leave you holding the bag? Do you realize how dumb this is?

BTW, a so-called "friendly lien" - a lien that doesn't secure a real debt, but rather is an accommodation to avoid creditors - is at best voidable on application of a real creditor, and at worst fraud.

[Lambkin]

I am actually looking for real help. Does anyone on this site have any knowledge of their mortgage products or any real world experience with them?

Telling you not to throw your money away on a scam is "real help".

[AndyK]

So, (just to cover medical expenses) someone could be facing a charge of $250 / month ($3,000 per year). If there were additional claims for automotive or any other coverage, each of them would add an additional $600 per year.

It is highly likely that traditional insurance will be significantly less expensive and much more reliable than the "HoldThis" program.

Health insurance on my family is over $1000 a month because we are self-insured. I would welcome $250.

Read their site. Each of their "plans" only covers two people. If your family is five or more people, you're better off with your insurance.

Plus, their "plans" require you to make all the payments out of your own pocket and, at the end of the year, submit a single claim for all the expenses -- which amy or may not be honored according to their unstated evaluation criteria..

[JakeMoore]

I am actually looking for real help. Does anyone on this site have any knowledge of their mortgage products or any real world experience with them?

What "mortgage" products?

In order to offer such things a company has to be licensed in the state in which they offer such services.

A quick check with your state's Secretary of State and/or the entity that regulates mortgages will tell you whether or not they can even offer things like that.

Thanks. But my understanding is their lending is for business purposes and is private money not banking or financing and, at least in my state, licensing for that is not required.

[JakeMoore]

Ok. I was actually looking for answers, but I can see you have no interest in providing help. You are not looking for answers, you are looking for someone to agree with your fantasy, not going to happen around here. You've already been given, repeatedly I might add, answers and information and you have ignored and disregarded all of it.No those are not them. At all. Hire your own asset protection law firm and they will explain them to you. I'm not the one asking the questions, you claim you have answers and then can't come up with them.

Not sure who pissed in your coffee, but I actually am looking for real answers...about heldharmless.com. And about their loans. I could care less if you think they are a fraud because they have a mailbox that they call a suite or you even if their national registry is a total crock. Do they fund loans? If you don't know then you don't know. If you know then please relay that information. I get what your assumptions are.

And actually you were the one who asked the question that I answered. I am satisfied that I am well informed about asset protection and could care less if you agree with that or not.

There is a common strategy in protecting assets by placing a lien against them which would have to be repaid by anyone who would attempt to collect on them. Sometimes it fails when people try to do it themselves because they use insiders only. So I guess it depends on how they have it all wrapped up and what the language and terms are...if that is the strategy they are even using. Common, I don't know about that, but certainly fraud, illegal, and a good way to get yourself in much more trouble, but the key things here are fraud and dishonest, oh, and did I mention, doesn't work, you do know what those mean I trust? That was sarcasm just so we're on the same page.

Wrong. Those strategies are successfully employed routinely by asset protection attorneys...but they must be done correctly to be legal. Obviously you can't just slap a note against a property, unless...perhaps...you use it as collateral for a loan and accurately track the balance of that loan.

I am actually looking for real help. Does anyone on this site have any knowledge of their mortgage products or any real world experience with them? No, you are not!! See my previous comment. There is nothing about these clowns that is legit, after having been told that repeatedly by everyone here, why would this be any different? Also, since that has never entered the discussion prior to this moment, why should anyone have answered you?

Are you for real? Unless I accept your pronouncement without question I am not looking for answers? I guess that tells me what I need to know.

As to why you would answer when I just now entered the discussion....I know I'm new here, but I kinda thought that was the point of discussion threads.

Again, this site is the only site I've been able to discover that has negative things to say about heldharmless and it is entirely reasonable to try to uncover the basis of your conclusions.

[JakeMoore]

I am actually looking for real help. Does anyone on this site have any knowledge of their mortgage products or any real world experience with them?

You say, "OK, their idea about an insurance substitute is a complete ripoff, but maybe they've got something on mortgages"? Promising.

I didn't say that. You said that. I said I could see how their insurance substitute could work, but I don't know if that is how they do it.

Are you talking about this? That's a blog entry, not a plan. The only description of any plan I find is "Coming soon - 2011". From the blog entry:

many creative Buyers and Sellers of real estate (including listing agents and brokers) have found that using a Whole HARMLESS Advantage Plan is great for securing or guaranteeing mortgage financing:

Selling a Home? Help your Buyer get that "approval" by listing a Whole HARMLESS Advantage Plan as a liquid-cash available asset.

That's even more ridiculous than their "shield from liability" nonsense. Why? What bank is ever going to take a promise from "HoldHarmless.com" as collateral on a mortgage? You're delusional if you think a bank will do anything other than laugh and throw you out. And, if you're selling your home, you would use an asset of yours as collateral for the buyer's mortgage? Why couldn't the buyer just default and leave you holding the bag? Do you realize how dumb this is?

No that's actually not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about actual loan products.

BTW, a so-called "friendly lien" - a lien that doesn't secure a real debt, but rather is an accommodation to avoid creditors - is at best voidable on application of a real creditor, and at worst fraud.

Of course...which is why I said that they often don't work when people do them themselves. I wasn't talking about a friendly lien. I was talking about a real lien.

Thanks everyone for your help, but I think I have all the information that you are able to provide.

[notorial dissent]

Are you for real? Unless I accept your pronouncement without question I am not looking for answers? I guess that tells me what I need to know.
Certainly a good deal more for real than Heldharmless. What you accept is irrelevant to me. You have been given good, honest, and sincere advice, it has been explained to at far greater length and detail than you deserve exactly why and how Heldharmless is a crock, and you have disregarded that information at every turn.

As to why you would answer when I just now entered the discussion....I know I'm new here, but I kinda thought that was the point of discussion threads.
Your problem is that you want someone here to agree with you, and that isn't going to happen, and since you have already made up your mind about the answer you want, this has long since ceased to be a discussion, and you keep trying to turn it in to a sales pitch, the problem is no one is buying this line of swill.

Again, this site is the only site I've been able to discover that has negative things to say about heldharmless and it is entirely reasonable to try to uncover the basis of your conclusions.You have been given more than sufficient reasons for the determination, both legal and anecdotal. The opinions entered here are not the gathered from some random internet site variety that you seem so fond of, but rather based on years of experience and professional qualifications, that you persist in ignoring in your so called quest for information. If the attorneys here say something is a fraud, it is a fraud.

The fact that you are ready and willing to give credence to an internet site that has NO verifiable bona fides whatsoever, reject out of hand the advice given you by professionals whose business this is, speaks volumes about you and about your motives.

[JakeMoore]

Are you for real? Unless I accept your pronouncement without question I am not looking for answers? I guess that tells me what I need to know.
Certainly a good deal more for real than Heldharmless. What you accept is irrelevant to me. You have been given good, honest, and sincere advice, it has been explained to at far greater length and detail than you deserve exactly why and how Heldharmless is a crock, and you have disregarded that information at every turn.

Really? Asking questions is disregarding? Disagreeing with an interpretation is disregarding?

As to why you would answer when I just now entered the discussion....I know I'm new here, but I kinda thought that was the point of discussion threads.
Your problem is that you want someone here to agree with you, and that isn't going to happen, and since you have already made up your mind about the answer you want, this has long since ceased to be a discussion, and you keep trying to turn it in to a sales pitch, the problem is no one is buying this line of swill.

Actually I don't. I don't care if you agree with me or not. And I haven't even completed my research so I don't even have an opinion for you to agree with...except I know plenty of legit businesses that use suite for their p o boxes and I know about asset protection.

It's not even remotely a sales pitch. I'm just trying to see if anyone here has first hand knowledge about them. I'm not asking you to accept them. Why would I care if you do? I'm trying to get information for my own research.

Again, this site is the only site I've been able to discover that has negative things to say about heldharmless and it is entirely reasonable to try to uncover the basis of your conclusions.You have been given more than sufficient reasons for the determination, both legal and anecdotal. The opinions entered here are not the gathered from some random internet site variety that you seem so fond of, but rather based on years of experience and professional qualifications, that you persist in ignoring in your so called quest for information. If the attorneys here say something is a fraud, it is a fraud.

Your continued wrong conclusions and ridiculous assumptions are one of the reasons I have to question what you say. You have no idea what my experience is. In fact, you don't even know if I'm a lawyer or not now do you? All you know is I had the gall to question you.

But really, thanks for you who provided honest assessments. I appreciate your input.

[AndyK]

We do know: you're not a lawyer.

[JamesVincent]

Sorry Jake, but it kinda appears that Notorial is correct. Your not really looking for any answers. Wes and others have others have answered every question you posted, Notorial and others have provided commentary and other answers for the same questions, yet you claim no one is really answering. I see at least 2 places you have asked a question, its been answered and then you say thats not the what you wanted but its the answer to the question you asked. Every person on this forum has experience in the field they work in, some of them 30-40 years experience and have tried to be honest and objective with their answers but their BS tolerance is low. If you wish not to accept those answers that is up to you, but I would advise not saying that no one is trying to answer you honestly. We have seen multiple scams come through similar to what you are looking at and if they are different, great, but it does not seem any different then what has come before and what will come again.

[Cathulhu]

Jake, you aren't looking for objective answers, logic, or experience. You're looking for rationalizing a bad decision. You really want everyone to tell you how smart you are, and only the people taking your money seem to want to do that. How astonishing!

[JakeMoore]

We do know: you're not a lawyer.

Actually you don't know. You only think you know.

Which again leads me back to my question which is and always has been are the responses here based on experience with other companies and instincts or on actual interaction with this particular company? I presume the former, which is perfectly fine if that is what it is. If there are any of the latter though please let me know.

[JakeMoore]

Sorry Jake, but it kinda appears that Notorial is correct. Your not really looking for any answers. Wes and others have others have answered every question you posted, Notorial and others have provided commentary and other answers for the same questions, yet you claim no one is really answering. I see at least 2 places you have asked a question, its been answered and then you say thats not the what you wanted but its the answer to the question you asked. Every person on this forum has experience in the field they work in, some of them 30-40 years experience and have tried to be honest and objective with their answers but their BS tolerance is low. If you wish not to accept those answers that is up to you, but I would advise not saying that no one is trying to answer you honestly. We have seen multiple scams come through similar to what you are looking at and if they are different, great, but it does not seem any different then what has come before and what will come again.

With all due respect James I was looking for answers. I have plenty of experience myself in this area which is why I came and asked questions. I learned long ago not just to accept the judgments of others, but to form my own opinion...and only after having as much information as possible.

For instance you can literally go to any mailbox place or virtual office in America and find legitimate businesses using suite in their address. But it's blanket pronouncements that only scammers do so that make me question the responses provided that I don't know the answers to. Facts and conclusions are very different. I was looking for facts to draw my own conclusions from and thought I was entering into a discussion of those facts. My bad I guess.

[AndyK]

We do know: you're not a lawyer.

Actually you don't know. You only think you know.

Which again leads me back to my question which is and always has been are the responses here based on experience with other companies and instincts or on actual interaction with this particular company? I presume the former, which is perfectly fine if that is what it is. If there are any of the latter though please let me know.

Horse hockey If you were an attorney, had any other significant experience in business or finance, or had any access to any people who do, you wouldn't be here asking questions about such a blatant scam.

If, by chance, you are an attorney, I sincerely hope your practice excludes contracts and most other civil matters.

[Arthur Rubin]

Horse hockey If you were an attorney, had any other significant experience in business or finance, or had any access to any people who do, you wouldn't be here asking questions about such a blatant scam.

If, by chance, you are an attorney, I sincerely hope your practice excludes contracts and most other civil matters.

Hmmm. I suppose that, in some fields, consulting Quatloos might be considered a reasonable part of "due diligence"....

[Judge Roy Bean]

... Hmmm. I suppose that, in some fields, consulting Quatloos might be considered a reasonable part of "due diligence"....

It is.

[NotAHappyCamper]

I just wrote a whole big thing and then it signed me out so here I go again.

Via our broker, we signed up for a HeldHarmless.com WHOLE HARMLESS ADVANTAGE PLAN ESCROW AGREEMENT Payable to: FIDELITY FUND (Escrow Services) which was wired $750 from our account to a JP Morgan Chase account in NYC. We were doing a private mortgage (long but short story that I won't get into here). This was the end of February 2012.

Our broker received the confirmation and after a couple of days, we (& broker) started receiving emails from HeldHarmless.com stating they were redoing their system and were having IT issues but everything should be good to go sometime in April. At that point, it was all good. But I couldn't help wonder why it would take so long since I was in the software industry a while back and know some IT people. But we coughed it up since it was financial and that could take a little longer than usual. Well, here it is in May 2012. Their customer service has never been online since we did this. Their phone number only goes to voicemail of which nobody ever returns a call. One of the emails received after the deposit stated to watch for phone calls coming from an unlisted number. HUH??? Why unlisted? Flag. I've emailed all three email address every single day with the same information. I have heard nothing back. Flag.

The company has a NYC address of which you have already discussed. Post box, not even a real office. I dug deeper to find that HH points to Washington DC after they listed themselves on websites that have a predominantly Asian following like Alibaba. The 202 (WDC) number also goes straight to the same voicemail. So deductive reasoning, nobody is answering ergo, I feel it's a scam. My broker can't even get through to them and he has a bunch of clients waiting on the same thing as us.

Names associated with HeldHarmless.com are as follows:
Anthony Baratt (trustee)
J. William Phillips (trustee) (302) 351-2445
Allan Grayson (supposedly our account manager)
Ken Miller
Ken Thompson
Gina & Grant Freer (r/e agents in FL)
Kevin Warsh
Charles Mellon (212)820-7958 jcmellon@heldharmless.com

That is all I was able to find...so far. So now, I am getting ready to file a complaint with every single bureau and agency I can. I am one that is not afraid to put up a fight when it comes to people trying to wrong me. My broker is not only embarrassed but livid. We are beyond that. If anyone is interested, I would like to post copies of the emails we received if anyone would like to see them and any opinions would be welcomed.

If by any chance someone from HeldHarmless.com sees this, I want a working phone number that will connect me to a live person who has immediate access to our file. I do not want any more excuses from your end.

You want to know how I really feel? -->
(I'm the one with the axe.)

[NotAHappyCamper]

I wanted to add, the website is registered through the Bahamas. Their UK address Bond Street
Mayfair, W1 GB and the phone number attached to that is +1.442071111

[wserra]

Welcome to Quatloos, NAHC.

One of the many problems with these guys is that they don't tell you who they are. They blather about unnamed "legal counsel" and "suites" which turn out to be maildrops while hiding their identities and location.

Would you be willing to post or link to scans of the docs they provided, redacting your name if you wish? That would be helpful.