New employee thinks he doesn't have to pay taxes

[ThirdTimeCharm]

We run a small pool service in Florida. We are hiring a new guy. He turned in about 25 pages of things he had printed from the internet explaining why he didn't have to pay taxes. I have been arguing with him about this for days now. I finally convinced him to fill out the I-9 and W-4, but he still insists he isn't going to pay taxes. I suppose that is between him and the IRS.

Anyway, he insists that someone named "Ed Rivera" got away with it. I have been doing some Google searches, and I did find a little about him. Wasn't he convicted of something? Wasn't he a lawyer who was disbarred? Isn't his case still pending? I thought I read that he had filed an appeal or something? Our new hire insists that he got away with it, and all they could pin on him was "contempt of court" or something.

I'd just like to know a little more about that case, because this new guy keeps insisting that not paying taxes is perfectly legal and that plenty of people have gotten away with it........and I simply don't believe him.

[Joey Smith]

Rivera has been disbarred, and is currently in jail for contempt of court. He is also under federal criminal investigation as are many of his clients and followers.

Your new employee has been drinking the tax protestor koolaid, and all it will result in is problems for for him and for you (in responding to inquiries and levies, etc.).

[webhick]

Is Florida an "at will" employment state? if so, can the clown. End of problem.

If he is this much of a problem now, it will only get worse over time. If there is no contractual or legal bar to doing so, can his ass.

You have a pool care business to run and he is preventing you from doing that, so can him. And white people wonder why so many firms prefer hiring Mexicans and S.A.s over whites......

I repeat, can the clown.

NH is also an at-will state. Even the labor board will tell you that you can fire "at-will", but that doesn't stop the employee from claiming unemployment or bringing issues to the board.

Can him before he can collect. Remember, if he doesn't believe there's a law that requires him to pay taxes, he may not believe in other laws that govern your business. That would make him a liability to have on your roster.

Edit: Call your labor board for advice, I'm sure they'll agree with CaptainKickback.

[Nikki]

We run a small pool service in Florida. We are hiring a new guy. He turned in about 25 pages of things he had printed from the internet explaining why he didn't have to pay taxes. I have been arguing with him about this for days now. I finally convinced him to fill out the I-9 and W-4, but he still insists he isn't going to pay taxes. I suppose that is between him and the IRS.

Anyway, he insists that someone named "Ed Rivera" got away with it. I have been doing some Google searches, and I did find a little about him. Wasn't he convicted of something? Wasn't he a lawyer who was disbarred? Isn't his case still pending? I thought I read that he had filed an appeal or something? Our new hire insists that he got away with it, and all they could pin on him was "contempt of court" or something.

I'd just like to know a little more about that case, because this new guy keeps insisting that not paying taxes is perfectly legal and that plenty of people have gotten away with it........and I simply don't believe him.

The blue pages of your phone book will have the number for your local IRS office. Use it.

BTW: His name doesn't happen to be Bulton, does it?

[Imalawman]

We run a small pool service in Florida. We are hiring a new guy. He turned in about 25 pages of things he had printed from the internet explaining why he didn't have to pay taxes. I have been arguing with him about this for days now. I finally convinced him to fill out the I-9 and W-4, but he still insists he isn't going to pay taxes. I suppose that is between him and the IRS.

Anyway, he insists that someone named "Ed Rivera" got away with it. I have been doing some Google searches, and I did find a little about him. Wasn't he convicted of something? Wasn't he a lawyer who was disbarred? Isn't his case still pending? I thought I read that he had filed an appeal or something? Our new hire insists that he got away with it, and all they could pin on him was "contempt of court" or something.

I'd just like to know a little more about that case, because this new guy keeps insisting that not paying taxes is perfectly legal and that plenty of people have gotten away with it........and I simply don't believe him.

The blue pages of your phone book will have the number for your local IRS office. Use it.

BTW: His name doesn't happen to be Bulton, does it?

I totally laughed out loud. Wouldn't that be fantastic coincidence?

Third time - Protesting taxes is symptomatic of an underlying emotional problem and a generally difficult and belligerent personality. If you can describe his theories we can get you court cases to shove in his face. But ditto the Cap'n.

[TheSaint]

Is Florida an "at will" employment state?

Very much so. And even if it wasn't, "employee refused to fill out government-required employment paperwork" ought to be valid grounds for termination.

[ThirdTimeCharm]

I was trying to catch up and read all of the responses.

I will try to sign on later and describe all of his "theories". They are bizarre, and it's going to take more time than I have right now.

Thank you for all of your advice. I'll be back on later tonight or tomorrow.

[Demosthenes]

FYI, Rivera gout out of prison a couple of weeks ago.

From the Bureau of Prisons website:

12. EDUARDO MARMOLEJ RIVERA 43911-112 63 White M 06-22-2007 RELEASED

And a head's up for ThirdTimeCharm, if your prospective employee continues down the normal tax protester path, he will sue you and your company when you do what the IRS tells you to do.

[Disilloosianed]

If you can describe his theories we can get you court cases to shove in his face.

....not that it will matter....

[grixit]

I was trying to catch up and read all of the responses.

I will try to sign on later and describe all of his "theories". They are bizarre, and it's going to take more time than I have right now.

Thank you for all of your advice. I'll be back on later tonight or tomorrow.

Others here know more about this than i do. But let me emphasize that this may be just one symptom of a whole set of beliefs.

Is he going to drive your truck? If so you need to find out if he has a valid drivers license. A valid drivers license would be one from Florida or another US state, not "The Supreme Kingdom of Christ", or "My Own Sovereignty". Also, does he accept the traffic regulations? Or does he believe that traffic lights are only for government slaves? If he's going to drive his own vehicle, is it registered?

Does he accept the regulations governing the proper use and disposal of muratic compounds and other chemicals?

Does he intend to agressively prostelytize your clients?

Hopefully those are just empty worries. But he is going to be some people's first impression of your business.

[LPC]

Anyway, he insists that someone named "Ed Rivera" got away with it. I have been doing some Google searches, and I did find a little about him. Wasn't he convicted of something? Wasn't he a lawyer who was disbarred? Isn't his case still pending? I thought I read that he had filed an appeal or something? Our new hire insists that he got away with it, and all they could pin on him was "contempt of court" or something.

Rivera already has his own page at http://tpgurus.wikidot.com/eduardo-rivera

And you might also want to look at the Tax Protester FAQ (http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html).

[webhick]

Let's just keep it simple and straightforward for TTC. You are in an "at will" state regarding employment. Fire the guy. End of problem and you can get on with your business.

When I ran across a pizza pan throwing TP with one of my clients, the TP was told that if he didn't fill out the I-9 within 3 days that he would be fired. He attempted to report the employer for violating the Whisleblower's Protection Act.

TPs are a huge headache, whether you hire them, fire them, or ignore them altogether. I wouldn't even bother with trying to argue their points with them. I tried that a couple of times, and in my experience, they will not read or listen to anything you present.

[Judge Roy Bean]

Even in an at-will state, I would use some ordinary care in any action against an employee for anything that you don't already have a written policy for.

Where some of these seemingly simple actions can wind up biting you in the posterior is if you treat one employee differently than another.

Even if it's a simple "employee handbook" it should have something in it that outlines key company policies and shows with an aknowledgement signature that employees have read and will adhere to them. Nowadays, because of nutballs like your new guy, that needs to include compliance with your policy of properly witholding and reporting for SS, Medicare and both state and Federal taxes.

Keep it simple, have them sign it, then enforce it fairly and equally and you'll probably never have to retain counsel for an employee discrimination suit.

Oh, and one more thing - I strongly recommend you not take legal or tax advice from a guy who cleans pools for a living.

[ThirdTimeCharm]

Wow, there is a lot of good information here. Thanks for the responses! You guys know a lot about this.

Ok, here are some of his arguments, in very simplistic form, because I have to admit that I don't remember all that he said, or even completely understand all of his arguments. Actually, this is more than just his arguments. I'll just tell you anything I can remember that he said.

On his application, he checked "no" when asked if he is a US citizen. He wrote in "state national". (He was born in the US, so he's not an alien......he is a citizen of the US, just not in his mind). He said something about each state being sovereign.

He also said something about there being no law saying we have to pay taxes. I asked him about Amendment 16. He said something about a Supreme Court ruling, but I don't remember what he said.

Next to his address, he wrote (not a domicile or residence). I have no clue what he means by that.

He initially refused to fill out the I-9, but then agreed to it when our payroll company told him he had to. But he moaned and groaned the entire time, and kept telling me that our payroll company "won't obey the law". Um, the reason they are making him fill out the form is because they have to obey the law! But he doesn't see it that way.

I told him that the constitution is interpreted by our judicial system, not by him, so if he is reading it to say that we don't have to pay taxes, that doesn't really matter because no judge will ever rule in his favor. He told me that's not true, that plenty of people have gotten away with it. The only person he named was this Ed Rivera.

He said something about not being an employee of the government, and that they are the only ones who have to pay taxes. So, next to "employee" on the application, he wrote "private employee" before he signed his name. And when he did sign, he wrote "all rights reserved without prejudice UCC1-207". Also, where he printed his name, he wrote "natural person flesh and blood".

He tried turning in a pile of attachments to his W4, but the payroll office would not accept them. A lot of the stuff comes from sedm.org, which is some kind of religion or ministry or something, but I haven't been able to take the time to look into it much.

One attachment was called "Tax Withholding and reporting, What the law says". I think it comes from the site I referred to.

One attachment was an "affidavit of corporate denial". The payroll company is sending it back to me, but I don't have it yet and can't remember all that was on it.

Some of the forms said things like "you do not have permission to disclose this or the attachments to anyone" and had some subtle threats about discrimination. One form even demanded that our payroll company change their procedures, not report tax on anyone, and said that they have 30 days to respond to it. The HR manager got really upset about that.

What is weird is that he has now signed everything, filled out the I9 and W4, and accepts that we are returning all of the other attachments to him. He's not happy, but he did it. If he was so adamant about it at first, I'm surprised he agreed to do it at all.

The worst part is, we have no other prospective employees, and are in desperate need of help so we don't have much choice right now. Actually, it's my husband's decision, and he has decided to hire him since he filled out what he was supposed to.

FYI, he also believes that 9/11 was a government conspiracy (along with all of the other Alex Jones crap, if you are familiar with him).

It really does sound like this guy is going to be nothing but trouble. There is no way this guy can afford an attorney, but assuming he did hire one, what could he sue us for? For reporting his wages to the IRS? Will an attorney even take that case???

[ThirdTimeCharm]

Even in an at-will state, I would use some ordinary care in any action against an employee for anything that you don't already have a written policy for.

Where some of these seemingly simple actions can wind up biting you in the posterior is if you treat one employee differently than another.

Even if it's a simple "employee handbook" it should have something in it that outlines key company policies and shows with an aknowledgement signature that employees have read and will adhere to them. Nowadays, because of nutballs like your new guy, that needs to include compliance with your policy of properly witholding and reporting for SS, Medicare and both state and Federal taxes.

Keep it simple, have them sign it, then enforce it fairly and equally and you'll probably never have to retain counsel for an employee discrimination suit.

Oh, and one more thing - I strongly recommend you not take legal or tax advice from a guy who cleans pools for a living.

We have a handbook that they have to sign.

I definitely had no intention of taking legal or tax advice from him.

[Demosthenes]

There is no way this guy can afford an attorney, but assuming he did hire one, what could he sue us for? For reporting his wages to the IRS? Will an attorney even take that case???

Tax protesters don't hire attorneys. They file hundreds of pages of gibberish documents in court against their employers and then you have to hire an attorney to get the idiot nonsensical lawsuit thrown out.

[webhick]

There is no way this guy can afford an attorney, but assuming he did hire one, what could he sue us for? For reporting his wages to the IRS? Will an attorney even take that case???

Tax protesters don't hire attorneys. They file hundreds of pages of gibberish documents in court against their employers and then you have to hire an attorney to get the idiot nonsensical lawsuit thrown out.

Don't forget my favorite part: That the judge orders the TP to reimburse you for your trouble..but the TP won't do that because "the courts are corrupt". So, now you're out pain, aggravation, time from work to appear in court, and the cost of your lawyer.

[ThirdTimeCharm]

There is no way this guy can afford an attorney, but assuming he did hire one, what could he sue us for? For reporting his wages to the IRS? Will an attorney even take that case???

Tax protesters don't hire attorneys. They file hundreds of pages of gibberish documents in court against their employers and then you have to hire an attorney to get the idiot nonsensical lawsuit thrown out.

Don't forget my favorite part: That the judge orders the TP to reimburse you for your trouble..but the TP won't do that because "the courts are corrupt". So, now you're out pain, aggravation, time from work to appear in court, and the cost of your lawyer.

I feel like crying.
I really hate this guy. He has already been nothing but aggravation, and now you are telling me that he will likely file a case against us in court? I would think that a judge would throw the ridiculous case out on his own, but I guess it doesn't work that way.

I thought you had to have an attorney to file something like this in court. But what do I know.

Just so that I can show my husband, does anyone have links to anything about an employee doing something like this to a business? I mean the part about filing in court.

[Disilloosianed]

Demos is right. The battles never end. Most of what they file with the court will be pitched out upon request, right after the clerk has a good laugh. Some of the things they will do, though, are a lot more vicious. If they feel you are depriving them of their right to something, they will file liens against your property for damages. You may not even find out about it until you go to sell the property. Another favorite is suing you for imagined torts. For instance, I deal with one that claims a copyright on his name. Every time I send a letter to him (we're in litigation), he counts how many times I've used his name and charges me $500,000. Every once in awhile, I'll get a "bill."

The other thing with them is, "no" is never the answer. If they sue you and lose in state court, they'll file again in federal court......or small claims court....or hell, traffic court, if they can figure out a way. All of it is easily defendable, but an incredible nuisance.

[ThirdTimeCharm]

Demos is right. The battles never end. Most of what they file with the court will be pitched out upon request, right after the clerk has a good laugh. Some of the things they will do, though, are a lot more vicious. If they feel you are depriving them of their right to something, they will file liens against your property for damages. You may not even find out about it until you go to sell the property. Another favorite is suing you for imagined torts. For instance, I deal with one that claims a copyright on his name. Every time I send a letter to him (we're in litigation), he counts how many times I've used his name and charges me $500,000. Every once in awhile, I'll get a "bill."

The other thing with them is, "no" is never the answer. If they sue you and lose in state court, they'll file again in federal court......or small claims court....or hell, traffic court, if they can figure out a way. All of it is easily defendable, but an incredible nuisance.

I am really disgusted with this situation. I can't believe there are people like this out there. My husband has had his business for 20 years and never met ANYONE like this.