Being sovereign means TVs are free

[Lambkin]

http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/lake ... 83849.html

After previous court outbursts denying government authority, a Gary man convicted of using more than 100 bogus $50 bills was not in the courtroom for his federal trial this week.

A jury found Christopher H. Cannon, 43, guilty Thursday of using 181 counterfeit bills to buy three big-screen televisions from the Sears in Hobart last year.

During his two-day trial in Hammond, Cannon watched the legal arguments unfold on a closed-circuit television in the federal lockup. While the Sixth Amendment protects individuals' rights to be present at their trial, even to the point of being gagged and restrained, Cannon's attorney thought his being there would do more harm than good.

"I did not believe the jury would have given him a fair trial if they saw him arguing with the judge," said Jerry Flynn, executive director of the northern district's federal community defenders. "So I was trying to protect his right to a fair trial by asking the court to have him removed."

Cannon has had several loud outbursts interrupting the court during his previous hearings. As member of the Sovereign Citizen movement, which the FBI has identified as a domestic terrorism threat, Cannon has claimed the government has no jurisdiction over him. He denies the existence of the United States, state of Indiana, Gary Police Department and other entities.

[The Observer]

While the Sixth Amendment protects individuals' rights to be present at their trial, even to the point of being gagged and restrained, Cannon's attorney thought his being there would do more harm than good.

Sounds like a defense attorney's version of "in-order-to-save-the-village-we-had-to-destroy-it."

[LaVidaRoja]

In this case, likely a benefit to the defendent. There are persons who can alienate others merely by saying "good morning". This guy sounds as if he went WAY beyond that.

[Judge Roy Bean]

IMHO, the prosecutor should object to the jury not being able to see the idiot first-hand. He's getting a free pass for being an a**hat.

[grixit]

I misinterpreted the title of this topic. I thought maybe someone was trying to get size 11 pumps and mascara by the pint for free.

[ArthurWankspittle]

The counterfeit money was made from real $5 bills that had been converted into $50 bills. Flynn said it even fooled the Sears cashier and passed the marker test used to pull the plug on fakes.

What? OK adding a zero on a check to try to pass it off as x10 I can sort of understand but adding a 0 on a bill? Isn't there like, er, some other differences, like which president is on it?

[Pottapaug1938]

The counterfeit money was made from real $5 bills that had been converted into $50 bills. Flynn said it even fooled the Sears cashier and passed the marker test used to pull the plug on fakes.

What? OK adding a zero on a check to try to pass it off as x10 I can sort of understand but adding a 0 on a bill? Isn't there like, er, some other differences, like which president is on it?

Correct; and the back side is different as well. The trouble is that the "marker test" involves only passing a certain felt-tip marker over the tendered bill. The marker will indicate if the paper used in the bill is genuine or fake; it won't tip you off if someone took a $5 and raised it to a $50 by cutting corners off of a genuine $50 and gluing them onto a genuine $5. It also won't tip you off if someone takes a genuine $1, bleaches out the ink, and then uses a high-quality printer to overpring the bills with the design of a higher-denomination bill.

An underlying problem is that, when it comes to money, many Americans are just plain stupid. I believe that, in another thread, we've read the story of a guy getting hassled for trying to spend $2 bills, which according to the store involved "aren't American money". I've had that same problem (but nowhere near the hassle) with $2 bills and 50 cent pieces. I've also noticed that many of the newer cent and quarter designs are not showing up in circulation, and that many of the early 50-state quarters are now showing up, in almost uncirculated condition.

The reason for that is that many Americans see an unfamiliar coin and think: "I have not seen this coin before. Therefore, it is rare. Therefore, it will be 'worth money' some day. Therefore, I must save as many as I can." Time and time again, local coin dealers I know see people walking into their stores with Series 1976 $2 bills, rolls of Bicentennial quarters, halves and dollars, and 50-state quarter rolls, expecting to profit handsomely and allow them to make their kid's first college tuition payment. They are shocked to be offered less than face value for the coins (due to the hassle of storing and transporting them to the bank); and they leave the store muttering about how the dealer was trying to cheat them of their "rare coins".

One reason that we have been stuck with the same designs on many of our coins for far past the usual time span has to do with politics. In the past, Congress allowed the US Mint to make the design changes, on its own, if a certain design was over 25 years old. Then, Congress realized that there was political hay to be made by horning in on the process. Many a legislator has sought to score brownie points by getting a certain design onto coins or paper money; and many a legislator has quietly lobbied against a design change, or the Mint being able to change a design on its own, for fear that a (insert the racist or sexist adjective and/or noun of your choice here) would show up on a new design.

Another reason is that, if a store receives and accepts a 50 cent piece or $2 bill in change, the teller usually sticks the $2 underneath the register drawer, where it eventually gets included in the next bank deposit. There is actually a bill slot for the $2; but it's always filled with extra rolls of coins, bill wrappers, and extra junk. The coin slot for the 50 cent piece (or dollar coin) is used the same way, or for extra loose quarters. And, God forbid the cashier try to give out a 50 cent piece or $2 bill in change! The intended recipient will often look at it as if it were something the cat forgot to put in the litter box, and ask "don't you have quarters (or paper $1 bills)?"

When I was a kid, even before I began collecting coins, I knew what the different kinds of coins and paper money looked like, and so did my friends -- we learned in school, if nowhere else. I'll be willing to wager that this doesn't happen today.

[Taxpayingcitizen84]

He would just filled the room with Moronic Piddle anyhow...

[Judge Roy Bean]

IMHO, the prosecutor should object to the jury not being able to see the idiot first-hand. He's getting a free pass for being an a**hat.

JRB, if you were on a jury and it was announced that the defendant could not be there for non-medical reasons (and they are currently incarcerated), what thoughts would go through your mind? I bet none would be helpful, flattering of the defendant, or likely to cast them in a positive light.

But the jury would be instructed to not infer anything from that situation. They would be allowed to take his demeanor, intransigence and utter disregard for the law into account were they to actually see and hear it for themselves.

[Gregg]

If you are one of those people who just likes to toss a spanner in the works, go to the bank and get a stack of new $50s or $100s. Take them home, lay them out on the ironing board and spray them with some spray starch, heat with an iron. Turn them over and repeat.
They will now "fail" the "special marker" test.

Now, imagine the possibilities....

[Pottapaug1938]

I've actually gone to the Federal Reserve and gotten their brochures on how to identify genuine bills, and given them to a few places where I do business. I'll bet that the brochures are under stacks of memos in the manager's office, if they still have them at all, becaue the people at the registers are still using the markers.

I guess that using the markers doesn't require much brainwork, while having to remember the Fed's identification points does....

[LaVidaRoja]

Absolutely. Which is why the spray-starch method at this time of year is a sure-fire way of receiving a little extra money from the wrongful improsonment suit you could bring.....

[The Observer]

If you are one of those people who just likes to toss a spanner in the works, go to the bank and get a stack of new $50s or $100s. Take them home, lay them out on the ironing board and spray them with some spray starch, heat with an iron. Turn them over and repeat.
They will now "fail" the "special marker" test.

Now, imagine the possibilities....

Lily Tomlin, in her comedic sketches as Ernestine the switchboard operator, recommended a way to get revenge on the phone company back in the day when your bill came on a custom-computer data-input card (the kind that had rectangular holes punched in it). All one had to do was subject the card to a little starch and a iron and you would discover that the holes would have shrunk just enough to screw up the batching of the bills when loaded into the feeder.

[Judge Roy Bean]

...
Lily Tomlin, in her comedic sketches as Ernestine the switchboard operator, recommended a way to get revenge on the phone company back in the day when your bill came on a custom-computer data-input card (the kind that had rectangular holes punched in it). All one had to do was subject the card to a little starch and a iron and you would discover that the holes would have shrunk just enough to screw up the batching of the bills when loaded into the feeder.

Actually, and I'm demonstrating my age here ... it wouldn't do anything more than make that one card go off into a reject chute as unreadable and make it so some person had to hand-enter the data.

Now, if enough people actually did it so that hundreds or thousands arrived at the same day ... well that probably would have resulted in a call to get a Customer Engineer out there to see what was wrong with the infernal machine.

[penny2]

How about homes are free? I know somone that said he stopped his foreclosure right before he was evicted by doing some sort of cease and desist at the hearing (with the advice of a Sovereign Attorney in fact). He said he got his deed sent to him in the mail shortly after and is now getting back all of his monthly payments he ever made on the house because the mortgage note was illegal.

He also said that if it would ever come to play that it did for some reason go up for Sheriff aale, this same Attorney in Fact, would just start slapping judgements on the Judge at the Foreclosure hearing.

Wouldn't everyone be doing that if that was the case?

[Pottapaug1938]

How about homes are free? I know somone that said he stopped his foreclosure right before he was evicted by doing some sort of cease and desist at the hearing (with the advice of a Sovereign Attorney in fact). He said he got his deed sent to him in the mail shortly after and is now getting back all of his monthly payments he ever made on the house because the mortgage note was illegal.

He also said that if it would ever come to play that it did for some reason go up for Sheriff aale, this same Attorney in Fact, would just start slapping judgements on the Judge at the Foreclosure hearing.

Wouldn't everyone be doing that if that was the case?

Bingo.

I could claim that I have a huge stash of precious metals, negotiable instruments and cash at my disposal, and a retinue of young and very attractive "attendants" to help me spend it; and I'd be as believable as this guy is.

[fortinbras]

I have to admit, I'm curious to see what these altered $5 bills look like, to see how they could have fooled a cashier.

When prosecuting for counterfeiting, the prosecution can nail the defendant for the face amount (that is, the pretended face amount) of all the funny money even including the stuff that hasn't yet been attempted to pass, even the stuff that's still waiting to be cut to size, and in one case (at least) even the funny money that so far has been printed only on one side.

What was very likely here, since this bozo was using the funny money to buy giant TV screens would be that he would either re-sell them (for real money) or later try returning them to the same store for refunds (in real money). This was the scam, about 20 years ago, with the Montana Freemen types, buying cars - and in a few instances houses - with bogus "negotiable instruments" and immediately selling them to (supposedly) innocent buyers for real cash and promptly hitting the road. The supposedly innocent buyers created a real legal problem between themselves and the vendor who had been cheated, because these were "bona fide purchasers for value", who thereby had a plausible legal right to keep what they had paid real money (in realistic price amounts) for.

[Brandybuck]

An underlying problem is that, when it comes to money, many Americans are just plain stupid.

Not stupid, just ignorant. And not necessarily ignorant in a bad way. The problem is not the people, the problem is that the money keeps changing its appearance. For more than a half century our money stayed the same (except for an occasional 2$ bill), and then suddenly in the the last decade it started changing all the time.

Sometimes these changes are announced in the Sunday paper color supplement, but that doesn't mean everyone will see it. Often the first time someone sees a new change is when the receive the bill as change or payment. For example, I knew all about the new state quarters, but no one told me about the new nickels with the very fake looking Jefferson profile. I had to tap it first to check that it was real.

Another example was when I was given a purple bill as change. Purple? Purple! WTF? The five dollar bill had already been changed a few years before, so what was this new PURPLE bill? I was not at all sure if it were real, so I asked the cashier for a different one.

I would do the same thing if I received a blue bill tomorrow. Who knows, maybe that's the new color in 2012! I could check with the Treasury website every week to see if they've fiddled with the designs again, but I have better things to do with my time.

I am insulted that you think that makes me "plain stupid".

[penny2]

I want a free TV and a free house.

[Pottapaug1938]

What was very likely here, since this bozo was using the funny money to buy giant TV screens would be that he would either re-sell them (for real money) or later try returning them to the same store for refunds (in real money). This was the scam, about 20 years ago, with the Montana Freemen types, buying cars - and in a few instances houses - with bogus "negotiable instruments" and immediately selling them to (supposedly) innocent buyers for real cash and promptly hitting the road. The supposedly innocent buyers created a real legal problem between themselves and the vendor who had been cheated, because these were "bona fide purchasers for value", who thereby had a plausible legal right to keep what they had paid real money (in realistic price amounts) for.

This is one reason why, back when I was practicing real estate law, I would have refused to close the sale unless the "negotiable instrument" could be proved to be genuine and worth its stated face value; and I would also have required that whoever was tendering the "negotiable instrument" provide title insurance to protect my client if the instrument proved to be bogus.