Discharging Debt with an A4V Setoff Money Order

[bobhurt]

SuzieQ showed me her property tax invoice for Zombie County's Tax Collector. She had written words on the front and back of the approximately 8x10 page.

Front

[At a slant]
[in Red magic marker:]
ACCEPTED FOR VALUE
EXEMPT FROM LEVY
BY <handwritten signature and EIN# <SSN> [in blue ink]>
<date [in blue ink]> GRANTOR [in red ink]
[More Red Magic Marker:]
EXEMPTION ID# <SSN>
PAYABLE AT/DEPOSIT TO:
THE UNITED STATES TREASURY
& CHARGE THE SAME TO
<NAME> <SSN [with proper hyphens]>
PAY TO <TAX COLLECTOR'S NAME>
TAX COLLECTOR <COUNTY NAME>
COUNTY <STATE NAME>
[end of slanted text]


[In a blank spot at the vertical center, red magic marker:]
SEE ACCEPTED FOR VALUE WITHOUT RECOURSE/PREJUDICE & 2 CENT STAMP ON BACK

[at bottom in blue ink above the property description and her name/addrss:]
MONEY ORDER
[in blue ink below property description and her name/address:]
PAY TO/DEPOSIT AT: UNITED STATES TREASURY
<full dollar amount in words, as on a check> <same amount in digits within a drawn box>
[very bottom, right-aligned, in blue ink]
By: <full name > EIN <SSN without hyphens>
A.R.

The back red magic marker reads

ACCEPTED FOR VALUE
WITHOUT PREJUDICE
WITHOUT RECOURSE
<full name [in blue ink]> EIN <SSN without hyphens>

The back in lower right corner has a two-cent postage stamp stuck to it with the full name and EIN of SuzieQ written diagonally across it.


SuzieQ claimed that she sent the invoice for property tax marked up as above to the IRS in Ogden Utah, and a short time later received notice from the tax collector that the tax had been paid. She said she called the tax collector and asked who issued the payment check. They told her it came from a service company that disburses funds for the IRS near Ogden Utah.

That all happened in 2010. SuzieQ hasn't heard from anyone about the matter since.

--------------------

Another woman told me she discharged a mortgage with a related or identical process, but the servicer still pressed for foreclosure in spite of the borrower receiving notice of discharge of the debt.

------------------


THOSE and similar claims give rise to my questions:

Why doesn't the IRS complain to the party issuing the money order as above, and why doesn't the DOJ go after such issuers for passing fraudulent financial instruments?

[wserra]

THOSE and similar claims give rise to my questions:

Why doesn't the IRS complain to the party issuing the money order as above, and why doesn't the DOJ go after such issuers for passing fraudulent financial instruments?

Very simple: because only those stupid beyond the standard of anencephaly would believe "THOSE and similar claims" without ironclad, unredacted, documentary proof.

So why don't you show us the proof that made you believe it, Bob?

[fortinbras]

Why doesn't the IRS complain to the party issuing the money order {actually, what is called a Public Office Money Certificate} as above, and why doesn't the DOJ go after such issuers for passing fraudulent financial instruments?

Actually, they have. The IRS has taken people to court for not paying their taxes, despite those people having sent such documents to the IRS, and the govt has charged people who tried using such documents with (among other offenses) mail fraud, bank fraud, false claims, and fictitious obligations. Stories about such documents making mortgage obligations and tax liabilities go away are just that, stories. In some instances some under-educate clerk in a mail room may send off a receipt or some such, out of force of habit, because he/she cannot tell the difference between this and a real financial instrument, but once the error is discovered, the receipt is cancelled, the bookkeeping is corrected, etc., and the money is still owed (only by now it may be overdue).

Those documents are worthless. They do not generate money, they do not pay debts, they are utterly worthless.

[Gregg]

Did it ever cross your mind that someone is lying to you?

How many Dinar do you have?

[The Observer]

Even better is that I think Bob should do exactly what SuzieQ did and report back to us on how well it worked for him.

[fortinbras]

I think if Bob tries out SuzieQ's advice it may be a while before he has internet access again.

[bobhurt]

I wrote about the issue merely to illustrate the kind of crooked things people do to discharge their debts. I recommend that people stay away from such ridiculous practices. I thought you might have some explanations about how anybody in the IRS or one of its contractors would write a check to pay off such a bogus money order. I simply did not dream any of you would use the issue to insult me.

[littleFred]

Holy thread resurrection!

Yesterday, Ceylon put up a sticky on the A4V section of the GOODF forum:

do not use this method if you do not know what you are doing.

if you do you may end up in more trouble

it would be stupid to jump in a car and drive if you have no experiance

same applies with A4V

The first five words would have sufficed.

[arayder]

Holy thread resurrection!

Yesterday, Ceylon put up a sticky on the A4V section of the GOODF forum:

do not use this method if you do not know what you are doing.

if you do you may end up in more trouble

it would be stupid to jump in a car and drive if you have no experiance

same applies with A4V

The first five words would have sufficed.

Freemen gurus love to pretend that the failures of their schemes are attributable to the inabilities of their followers. One wonders which of Ceylon's minions drank the purple kool aide and used the A4V process.

"Technologies" like A4V are marketed as simple and straightforward when sold to wannabe freemen. But, such "technologies" are said to be "don't try this at home" complicated after a freeman uses one to get himself in trouble.

[notorial dissent]

Bit...but...but....it's such a much better rationale that that it simple doesn't work to begin with. Rule number 1, it it always the end user's fault, not the author of the majik spell. Always worked for software, don't see shy it shouldn't apply here as well.

[Jeffrey]

how anybody in the IRS or one of its contractors would write a check to pay off such a bogus money orde

Simple answer is they don't and never have.

A4V successes generally fall into the following categories:

[*]Fake success so you can sell your documents to saps
[*]The person you owe money to interpreted the A4V as a default on the debt
(notice the many Guru's selling "credit repair" services after an A4V)

[*]It was interpreted as a stop-contact and they stop calling under that one Consumer protection law.
[*]Your debt was sold to a third party debt collector once it became clear you were going to be hard to collect on.

[grixit]

Holy thread resurrection!

Yesterday, Ceylon put up a sticky on the A4V section of the GOODF forum:

do not use this method if you do not know what you are doing.

if you do you may end up in more trouble

it would be stupid to jump in a car and drive if you have no experiance

same applies with A4V

The first five words would have sufficed.

No amount of driving experience will suffice if the car is wired.

[fortinbras]

For one thing, 26 USC §6311 says that the IRS will accept payment in any "commercially acceptable" form of payment. This provision was adopted to allow the use of credit cards, in addition to checks and money orders. (The IRS very definitely wanted to stop the mailing of cash because it turned out to be too great a temptation to too many employees of the postal service or of the IRS.) But these homebrew makebelieve documents are clearly not commercially acceptable and therefore not acceptable as payments to the IRS.

By the same token, although not applicable to IRS dealings, the Uniform Commercial Code, in every State, says in §2-511 (the section number might be different in the codifications of some states) that the recipient of some troublesome form of payment may, at his discretion, insist on payment in legal tender if he makes the allowance of reasonable additional time for this to be done. The point being that nobody has to accept funny money, they can, under the UCC, insist on real money.

[The Observer]

I have been waiting to see if anyone would point the obvious problem with the story that Bob Hurt shared at the beginning of this thread. It hasn't happened yet, but it is critical in showing (1) how much of a liar that Suzie Q must be, (2) how little Bob understands about the payment and collection of taxes and (3) how quickly Bob will accept any story given to him by someone who claims that they have found a magic way to get out of paying taxes.

The first problem with Suzie's story is that she is conflating property taxes and IRS tax collection.

In the very first line, Bob confirms that this issue is about county property taxes:

SuzieQ showed me her property tax invoice for Zombie County's Tax Collector.

Then Bob tells us that Suzie worked her wonderful magic by marking up the invoice and then sending it to the IRS:

SuzieQ claimed that she sent the invoice for property tax marked up as above to the IRS in Ogden Utah, and a short time later received notice from the tax collector that the tax had been paid.

The problem with this story is that the IRS has no authority to collect local taxes or to decide that a local tax has been satisfied. The IRS does have agreements with state governments to turn over income tax refunds to the state if there is a surplus after federal taxes have been fully satisfied. But that is it. Any claim by Suzie to the contrary is an absolute lie.

Just in case Bob tries to come back and claim that the story got garbled and that what Suzie really accomplished was getting her income taxes erased, that won't work for the same reason. You can't send in a local propery tax bill with magic markings and get the IRS to believe that somehow the county tax document applies to a federal tax matter. It is obvious that Bob doesn't understand how things really work.

[Gregg]

I was myself wondering when the IRS started using money orders from an outside company (the local QuickStop?) instead of Treasury checks.

[notorial dissent]

Petty little rational questions, all of them, and none of which ever entered Bob's mind. So true to form.