Fire!

[ashlynne39]

...and it would be very good to pay attention to what professional climatologists say about this, but lots of people don't (or select the "experts" they want to believe). Yes, this goes both ways, but the two sides of this coin are hardly equal. Honest.

Except most of the climatologists want to ignore data that has contradicted what their models have predicted as well as ignore what the fossil data has shown over the last several million years in terms that the temperature and CO2 levels acted independently of each other. Throw in the shredding of e-mails, cover-ups, lying and the general snarky attitude of these climatologists and I get the impression that they have been taking lessons from the NESARA crowd.

This is pretty much how I feel. I'm not a climatologist but at this point I tend not to take global warming that seriously. Its not because I just believe its not true though. It is more because this has become less an issue about climate and solving problems than it has become a cause celebre for people with the same lack of education on this issue as me. It is because it has become a political game of one upsmanship. It is because of the rank dishonesty of some of the climatologists that has come out in recent years - ie the coverups of materials and shredding of documents. But a large factor for me is a strong dislike for Al Gore and other hypocrites like him who have gotten rich off deceit and hypocrisy in this movement. I find the whole buying and shifting of carbon credits to be laughable. And don't tell me to take a bike when you are jetting around in a private plane. I am one who could be convinced about global warming but only when I feel there is some real honesty behind the conversation. For now I reserve judgment.

[Deep Knight]

... ie the coverups of materials and shredding of documents. ...

Exactly what was covered up and what documents were shredded?

[Gregg]

Somewhere in the past was a caveman telling another caveman that if they didn't quit using fire to cook the mammoth meat, the glaciers were gonna be north of Atlanta someday.

[The Observer]

Somewhere in the past was a caveman telling another caveman that if they didn't quit using fire to cook the mammoth meat, the glaciers were gonna be north of Atlanta someday.

Well, see, if those cavemen had only used that fire to roast and eat the shape-shifting reptiles from outer space instead of belching mammoths, we would have been much better off.

[co-shoot]

Well, see, if those cavemen had only used that fire to roast and eat the shape-shifting reptiles from outer space instead of belching mammoths, we would have been much better off.

I agree maybe these cavemen did eat and spread them around, god particle that is...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/gue ... s_on-faith

[Burnaby49]

... ie the coverups of materials and shredding of documents. ...

Exactly what was covered up and what documents were shredded?

Well there was Climategate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climatic_R ... ontroversy

And our leading character "Hide the Decline" Michael E. Mann;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMqc7PCJ-nc

[Deep Knight]

Well there was Climategate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climatic_R ... ontroversy

From that article:

ClimatologistsAmong the scientists whose emails were disclosed, the CRU's researchers said in a statement that the emails had been taken out of context and merely reflected an honest exchange of ideas. Michael Mann, director of Pennsylvania State University's Earth System Science Center, said that sceptics were "taking these words totally out of context to make something trivial appear nefarious", and called the entire incident a careful, "high-level, orchestrated smear campaign to distract the public about the nature of the climate change problem." Kevin E. Trenberth of the National Center for Atmospheric Research said that he was appalled at the release of the emails but thought that it might backfire against climate sceptics, as the messages would show "the integrity of scientists." He also said that climate change sceptics had selectively quoted words and phrases out of context, and that the timing suggested an attempt to undermine talks at the December 2009 Copenhagen global climate summit. Tom Wigley, a former director of the CRU and now head of the US National Center for Atmospheric Research, condemned the threats that he and other colleagues had received as "truly stomach-turning", and commented: "None of it affects the science one iota. Accusations of data distortion or faking are baseless. I can rebut and explain all of the apparently incriminating e-mails that I have looked at, but it is going to be very time consuming to do so." In relation to the harassment that he and his colleagues were experiencing, he said: "This sort of thing has been going on at a much lower level for almost 20 years and there have been other outbursts of this sort of behaviour – criticism and abusive emails and things like that in the past. So this is a worse manifestation but it's happened before so it's not that surprising."

Other prominent climate scientists, such as Richard Somerville, called the incident a smear campaign. David Reay of the University of Edinburgh said that the CRU "is just one of many climate-research institutes that provide the underlying scientific basis for climate policy at national and international levels. The conspiracy theorists may be having a field day, but if they really knew academia they would also know that every published paper and data set is continually put through the wringer by other independent research groups. The information that makes it into the IPCC reports is some of the most rigorously tested and debated in any area of science." Stephen Schneider compared the political attacks on climate scientists to the witch-hunts of McCarthyism.

James Hansen said that the controversy has "no effect on the science" and that while some of the emails reflect poor judgment, the evidence for human-made climate change is overwhelming.

One of the IPCC's lead authors, Raymond Pierrehumbert of the University of Chicago, expressed concern at the precedent established by this incident: "[T]his is a criminal act of vandalism and of harassment of a group of scientists that are only going about their business doing science. It represents a whole new escalation in the war on climate scientists who are only trying to get at the truth... What next? Deliberate monkeying with data on servers? Insertion of bugs into climate models?" Another IPCC lead author, David Karoly of the University of Melbourne, reported receiving hate emails in the wake of the incident and said that he believed there was "an organised campaign to discredit individual climate scientists". Andrew Pitman of the University of New South Wales commented: "The major problem is that scientists have to be able to communicate their science without fear or favour and there seems to be a well-orchestrated campaign designed to intimidate some scientists."

In response to the incident, 1,700 British scientists signed a joint statement circulated by the UK Met Office declaring their "utmost confidence in the observational evidence for global warming and the scientific basis for concluding that it is due primarily to human activities."

And our leading character "Hide the Decline" Michael E. Mann;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMqc7PCJ-nc

Curse you, now I've got that stupid song in my head (this is a video where "Draggin' the Line" by Tommy James and the Shondells, my second least favorite 60's band after Gary Pucket and the Union Gap, is given new inflamitory lyrics). A comment from the web about "Hide the Decline" becoming an out-of-context mantra.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/print.php?r=126

Clearing up misconceptions regarding 'hide the decline'

"Hide the decline" has become a slogan for climate skeptics. However, there are several misconceptions concerning this email that give a misleading picture of the science discussed in Phil Jones' email. When one takes the time to read the email and understand the science discussed, the misconceptions are easily put into proper context.

The decline is about northern tree-rings, not global temperature
Phil Jones' email is often cited as evidence of an attempt to "hide the decline in global temperatures". This claim is patently false and demonstrates ignorance of the science discussed. The decline actually refers to a decline in tree growth at certain high-latitude locations since 1960.

Tree-ring growth has been found to match well with temperature and hence tree-rings are used to plot temperature going back hundreds of years. However, tree-rings in some high-latitude locations diverge from modern instrumental temperature records after 1960. This is known as the "divergence problem". Consequently, tree-ring data in these high-latitude locations are not considered reliable after 1960 and should not be used to represent temperature in recent decades.

I may be going a bit overboard here, but you have to understand how frustrating it is to "play by the rules of scientific inquiry" when the opponents of climate change don't. I remember a John Wayne movie where he was an anti-communist investigator in Hawaii. His partner, James Arness expressed frustration about having to play by the rules (of law) where the commies didn't. I feel the same way about this.

[Burnaby49]

And our leading character "Hide the Decline" Michael E. Mann;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMqc7PCJ-nc

Curse you, now I've got that stupid song in my head (this is a video where "Draggin' the Line" by Tommy James and the Shondells, my second least favorite 60's band after Gary Pucket and the Union Gap, is given new inflamitory lyrics). A comment from the web about "Hide the Decline" becoming an out-of-context mantra.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/print.php?r=126

Serves you right for inflicting Vanilla Fudge and Gary Puckett and the Union Gap on us. Even you top-rank Illuminati should show some common decency.

[TheSaint]

This is pretty much how I feel. I'm not a climatologist but at this point I tend not to take global warming that seriously. Its not because I just believe its not true though. It is more because this has become less an issue about climate and solving problems than it has become a cause celebre for people with the same lack of education on this issue as me. It is because it has become a political game of one upsmanship. It is because of the rank dishonesty of some of the climatologists that has come out in recent years - ie the coverups of materials and shredding of documents. But a large factor for me is a strong dislike for Al Gore and other hypocrites like him who have gotten rich off deceit and hypocrisy in this movement. I find the whole buying and shifting of carbon credits to be laughable. And don't tell me to take a bike when you are jetting around in a private plane. I am one who could be convinced about global warming but only when I feel there is some real honesty behind the conversation. For now I reserve judgment.

My feelings are similar to this, though I have a couple additional reasons for not believing the global warming crowd.

I don't know anything about climatology. But I do understand probability, and the human tendency to find patterns in random data. Especially when it's convenient to what one wants to believe. Which is really what global warming looks like to me. Whenever someone's shown me climate statistics that supposedly prove the matter, they seem overly localized, carefully selected, and within the range of normal statistical fluctuation.

Secondly: I was alive in the 1970s, and I remember "Earth going into another ice age" being used all the time, just as "global warming" is being used now. I know people did a lot of drugs in the 1970s, but I'm surprised how few people recall that the global catastrophe indsutry was predicting exactly the opposite a mere 20 years ago. That alone is enough reason for me to question the whole idea. Which is not to say I side with the anti-warming crowd, since I find their arguments equally lacking in rigor.

I find the whole global warming thing an obnoxious, expensive red herring that detracts from the environmental discussions we should be having.

[Deep Knight]

[Serves you right for inflicting Vanilla Fudge and Gary Puckett and the Union Gap on us. Even you top-rank Illuminati should show some common decency.

Sorry, but decency isn't part of our mandate, not being quite evil enough.

As for your inflamitory statements, I'm afraid I'm going to have to get tough and call you out here - NAME ONE VANILLA FUDGE SONG THAT GET'S STUCK IN YOUR HEAD! If they had only had one, the drummer wouldn't have had to play with Ted Nugent!

Full disclosure - I had the Vanilla Fudge album with the faux Mt. Rushmore cover and "Keep Me Hangin' On" and used to listen to it a lot circa 1968. Later, I got into the music business myself and met Carmen Appice, the drummer, through a friend who was a studio engineer. For my money, one of the best in the business. The last time I saw him was at a drumming workshop at a local music store, during a time when he was working with Ted Nugent, who I understand is his friend.

As for Gary Pucket and the Union Gap, well, I have no excuse except that I'm evil and want to enslave the world.

[Burnaby49]

[Serves you right for inflicting Vanilla Fudge and Gary Puckett and the Union Gap on us. Even you top-rank Illuminati should show some common decency.

Sorry, but decency isn't part of our mandate, not being quite evil enough.

As for your inflamitory statements, I'm afraid I'm going to have to get tough and call you out here - NAME ONE VANILLA FUDGE SONG THAT GET'S STUCK IN YOUR HEAD! If they had only had one, the drummer wouldn't have had to play with Ted Nugent!

Full disclosure - I had the Vanilla Fudge album with the faux Mt. Rushmore cover and "Keep Me Hangin' On" and used to listen to it a lot circa 1968. Later, I got into the music business myself and met Carmen Appice, the drummer, through a friend who was a studio engineer. For my money, one of the best in the business. The last time I saw him was at a drumming workshop at a local music store, during a time when he was working with Ted Nugent, who I understand is his friend.

As for Gary Pucket and the Union Gap, well, I have no excuse except that I'm evil and want to enslave the world.

I agree, Vanilla Fudge was too droning and slow to inflict earworms. However, as a damaged victim of their 6:47 version of "You Keep me Hanging On", which was played constantly during my first year at university, I have a valid issue with the flashbacks you triggered by your mention of the group.

As for Gary Puckett, try and see if you can get Lady Willpower out of your mind. I can't.

[ashlynne39]

... ie the coverups of materials and shredding of documents. ...

Exactly what was covered up and what documents were shredded?

I did see your post below but it was fairly lengthy so I didn't want to quote it. Here are some of the issues I was referring to in addition to "climategate."

This wasn't a coverup but it was fraud, forgery and theft by a global warming advocate:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor ... speration/

http://fakegate.org/new-evidence-releas ... g-scandal/

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articl ... 13225.html

On the climategate issue that you discussed in your other post, I guess I just have concerns when the e-mails in question show attempts to evade FOIA requests, cherry picking of data, admissions of using statistical tricks to hide unfavorable information, manipulation of the peer review process, omitting or hiding unfavorable information. I guess I just find the entire situation pretty shady and it makes me wonder what is really being hidden.

[The Observer]

ClimatologistsAmong the scientists whose emails were disclosed, the CRU's researchers said in a statement that the emails had been taken out of context and merely reflected an honest exchange of ideas. Michael Mann, director of Pennsylvania State University's Earth System Science Center, said that sceptics were "taking these words totally out of context to make something trivial appear nefarious", and called the entire incident a careful, "high-level, orchestrated smear campaign to distract the public about the nature of the climate change problem."

Really? Have these scientists explained the context of those messages ever? Or has it been conveniently forgotten?

And how does one establish that shredding and deleting of e-mails was taken out of context?

Tom Wigley, a former director of the CRU and now head of the US National Center for Atmospheric Research, condemned the threats that he and other colleagues had received as "truly stomach-turning", and commented: "None of it affects the science one iota. Accusations of data distortion or faking are baseless. I can rebut and explain all of the apparently incriminating e-mails that I have looked at,...

Great, Tom. That is the right way to address and rebut baseless accusations. I am interested in reading your rebuttal

...but it is going to be very time consuming to do so.

Guess I just have to take your word for it, like your claims about global warming, right?

...Raymond Pierrehumbert of the University of Chicago, expressed concern at the precedent established by this incident: "[T]his is a criminal act of vandalism and of harassment of a group of scientists that are only going about their business doing science. It represents a whole new escalation in the war on climate scientists who are only trying to get at the truth... What next? Deliberate monkeying with data on servers? Insertion of bugs into climate models?"

Why not? After all, they would only be operating along the same lines that scientists did in falsifying data and tinkering with the models to end up with the conclusions that they wanted.

The decline is about northern tree-rings, not global temperature
Phil Jones' email is often cited as evidence of an attempt to "hide the decline in global temperatures". This claim is patently false and demonstrates ignorance of the science discussed. The decline actually refers to a decline in tree growth at certain high-latitude locations since 1960.

Tree-ring growth has been found to match well with temperature and hence tree-rings are used to plot temperature going back hundreds of years. However, tree-rings in some high-latitude locations diverge from modern instrumental temperature records after 1960. This is known as the "divergence problem". Consequently, tree-ring data in these high-latitude locations are not considered reliable after 1960 and should not be used to represent temperature in recent decades.

Wow. Guess they would have like to known [url

ClimatologistsAmong the scientists whose emails were disclosed, the CRU's researchers said in a statement that the emails had been taken out of context and merely reflected an honest exchange of ideas. Michael Mann, director of Pennsylvania State University's Earth System Science Center, said that sceptics were "taking these words totally out of context to make something trivial appear nefarious", and called the entire incident a careful, "high-level, orchestrated smear campaign to distract the public about the nature of the climate change problem."

Really? Have these scientists explained the context of those messages ever? Or has it been conveniently forgotten?

And how does one establish that shredding and deleting of e-mails was taken out of context?

Tom Wigley, a former director of the CRU and now head of the US National Center for Atmospheric Research, condemned the threats that he and other colleagues had received as "truly stomach-turning", and commented: "None of it affects the science one iota. Accusations of data distortion or faking are baseless. I can rebut and explain all of the apparently incriminating e-mails that I have looked at,...

Great, Tom. That is the right way to address and rebut baseless accusations. I am interested in reading your rebuttal

...but it is going to be very time consuming to do so.

Guess I just have to take your word for it, like your claims about global warming, right?

...Raymond Pierrehumbert of the University of Chicago, expressed concern at the precedent established by this incident: "[T]his is a criminal act of vandalism and of harassment of a group of scientists that are only going about their business doing science. It represents a whole new escalation in the war on climate scientists who are only trying to get at the truth... What next? Deliberate monkeying with data on servers? Insertion of bugs into climate models?"

Why not? After all, they would only operating along the same lines that scientists did in falsifying data and tinkering with the models to end up with the conclusions that they wanted.

The decline is about northern tree-rings, not global temperature
Phil Jones' email is often cited as evidence of an attempt to "hide the decline in global temperatures". This claim is patently false and demonstrates ignorance of the science discussed. The decline actually refers to a decline in tree growth at certain high-latitude locations since 1960.

Tree-ring growth has been found to match well with temperature and hence tree-rings are used to plot temperature going back hundreds of years. However, tree-rings in some high-latitude locations diverge from modern instrumental temperature records after 1960. This is known as the "divergence problem". Consequently, tree-ring data in these high-latitude locations are not considered reliable after 1960 and should not be used to represent temperature in recent decades.

Wow. Guess they would have like to known about this study that looked at trees from 2 thousand years rather than just trees from 1960. And of course, the data shows it to be the exact opposite of what climatologists have been trying to tell us that the world has been heating up rather than cooling down.

[Deep Knight]

... ie the coverups of materials and shredding of documents. ...

Exactly what was covered up and what documents were shredded?

I did see your post below but it was fairly lengthy so I didn't want to quote it. Here are some of the issues I was referring to in addition to "climategate."

This wasn't a coverup but it was fraud, forgery and theft by a global warming advocate:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor ... speration/

http://fakegate.org/new-evidence-releas ... g-scandal/

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articl ... 13225.html

On the climategate issue that you discussed in your other post, I guess I just have concerns when the e-mails in question show attempts to evade FOIA requests, cherry picking of data, admissions of using statistical tricks to hide unfavorable information, manipulation of the peer review process, omitting or hiding unfavorable information. I guess I just find the entire situation pretty shady and it makes me wonder what is really being hidden.

Yes, Peter Gleick did something wrong. How that relates to the science being wrong, I'm not sure. I think it more relates to climate scientists being harassed, a real issue that is really happening, and someone deciding it was payback time.

As for the rest, these are common accusations from the anti-climate change side. None of them hold up under scrutiny. But don't listen to me, check this for yourself. For example, the cherry picking data bit. I suggest RealClimate, a website run by climate scientists, which has an FAQ that addresses a lot of this with references you can check out.

Observer - I love you in love and light and all that, but don't want to argue with you about this. I can see it won't get either of us anywhere.

[Cathulhu]

[Serves you right for inflicting Vanilla Fudge and Gary Puckett and the Union Gap on us. Even you top-rank Illuminati should show some common decency.

Sorry, but decency isn't part of our mandate, not being quite evil enough.

As for your inflamitory statements, I'm afraid I'm going to have to get tough and call you out here - NAME ONE VANILLA FUDGE SONG THAT GET'S STUCK IN YOUR HEAD! If they had only had one, the drummer wouldn't have had to play with Ted Nugent!

Full disclosure - I had the Vanilla Fudge album with the faux Mt. Rushmore cover and "Keep Me Hangin' On" and used to listen to it a lot circa 1968. Later, I got into the music business myself and met Carmen Appice, the drummer, through a friend who was a studio engineer. For my money, one of the best in the business. The last time I saw him was at a drumming workshop at a local music store, during a time when he was working with Ted Nugent, who I understand is his friend.

As for Gary Pucket and the Union Gap, well, I have no excuse except that I'm evil and want to enslave the world.

I agree, Vanilla Fudge was too droning and slow to inflict earworms. However, as a damaged victim of their 6:47 version of "You Keep me Hanging On", which was played constantly during my first year at university, I have a valid issue with the flashbacks you triggered by your mention of the group.

As for Gary Puckett, try and see if you can get Lady Willpower out of your mind. I can't.

Okay, didn't Vanilla Fudge do a definitive version of "Chest Fever", or am I mixing them up with Three Dog Night?

[Pottapaug1938]

Three Dog Night covered "Chest Fever" on their "Caught Live At The Forum" album. Vanilla Fudge covered "You Keep Me Hanging On" on whatever awful album it was on.

[Cathulhu]

I have done many evils over the course of my almost-six decades, but I've never owned a Vanilla Fudge album. Or Vanilla Ice.

But I do have a vanilla orchid vine for the greenhouse being built as we speak.

[texino]

Speaking of heating up; The "Fudge" were once known as "the pigeons" and everyone knows pigeons are a bellwether for major political shifts and weather phenomenon. As for Carmine, in a pre Nugent era, he formed up with Jeff Beck and Tim Bogart (also from the fudge) and I don't think they started a fire.

Now Joco Pastorius was heating up the weather report before he went destructo nuts and wandered up and down the east beaches of FL. until he got himself killed.
Damnit, here we are talking music again when we have a separate forum for that. I would post there were it not for the Gary Puckett issue. (not to mention Johnny Horton hiding in the wings)
I guess it has to do with us Illuminati folks and our ability to stick songs deep within the medula oblongata of the common citizen and therefore force him or her to think on our command line. (Lady WILLPOWER- Get it?)

[David Merrill]

Deep Knight;



You are deluded. Obviously the problem was not that these houses were in a forest fire! They were being rained on by burning embers by a nearby forest fire blown from the ridge above by a 103 degree 60 mph wind.




Instead of wetting down the neighborhood, dousing the houses with water officials chose to evacuate 5% of Colorado's second largest city. Now down 350 houses Colorado Springs certainly has a sense of "mandatory evacuation" and an awareness that even when you evacuate extensive overkill, the houses still get burned down in bulk! This kind of property damage was avoidable.


You are an idiot to believe otherwise. Well... maybe you are just drawn into a shared illusion.



David Merrill.

[Deep Knight]

Deep Knight;

You are deluded. Obviously the problem was not that these houses were in a forest fire! They were being rained on by burning embers by a nearby forest fire blown from the ridge above by a 103 degree 60 mph wind.

Instead of wetting down the neighborhood, dousing the houses with water officials chose to evacuate 5% of Colorado's second largest city. Now down 350 houses Colorado Springs certainly has a sense of "mandatory evacuation" and an awareness that even when you evacuate extensive overkill, the houses still get burned down in bulk! This kind of property damage was avoidable.

You are an idiot to believe otherwise. Well... maybe you are just drawn into a shared illusion.

David Merrill.

I don't know what you're upset about, after all I agreed with you that the homeowners should have died trying to defend their homes rather than evacuate them and let fire-fighting professionals in! After all, this had nothing to do with the wildfire and everything to do with the government sending a message about their "mandatory evacuation" power. Anyone would have to be a fool to believe that the wildfire wouldn't have backed down if it saw a determined group of homeowners in its path.

As for the cause of this fire, I think the guy raving below has hit his head right on the nail!

Sunday, July 15, 2012
Ultra Classified material
Posted By: MESETA
Date: Sunday, 15-Jul-2012 09:17:20

* Colorado Fire. I had to press a bit with an old friend I had mentioned earlier who worked for N*A and had only two tiers clearance remaining above him when he retired. That's twenty four levels above the President! A little scary.
* Denver: Can be seen with the naked eye, discerning observers note there is a Plasma energy system in the sky emanating from the direction of DIA.
* This is a field generation system that powers the Intercontinental Underground Transit System (IUTS) that connects South America, Europe, Asia and several other Continents, which all converge under DIA. As I understand it, the facility is the size of a small city.
* This is how it was explained to me. They needed to move some extremely large pieces of equipment (Several miles in Diameter) into the DIA area , (ships, and other large items) and the Dimensional Window for that transfer was in the middle of the day. As you are aware the larger material remains visible for several minutes after a dimensional transfer (Ships & such). Since the transfer window time could not be changed, a distraction was needed to get everyone in the state looking west. Obviously it worked quite well, not to mention enough smoke to cover several states. No Satellite Pictures.
* After the tenth fire broke out in Southern Colorado and the last of the large equipment had been brought in near DIA, suddenly, or within two days, the fires became over 40% contained. Then, out of nowhere, a four day rain storm flooded the entire state. HAARP was mentioned.
* He also stated. Quote "They're running out of time and you will see more Bold moves like this more often" UN-Quote.
* London was also mentioned. My Contact asked if I had ever heard of using forty five thousand active Military troops to cover a sporting event before? He stated that when anti-nuclear military teams move into a International City, Look Out!
* He flatly refused to discuss anything about BIS or the Banking sector.
* When I brought up Nibiru and her system, he laughed and shook his head. He then became more serious, stating. Quote "Make sure your away from any major City and you can make it on your own for several years. You don't think I moved by chance do you?"

Posted by John MacHaffie at 9:37 AM

3 comments:

Anonymous July 15, 2012 11:41 AM
Here is a link to white hats report #44 http://jlnavarro.blogspot.com/2012/07/b ... ainst.html This is quite serious, and it shows what is REALLY going on behind the closed doors. This is not fear porn, this is just what most everybody doesn't know.

Anonymous July 15, 2012 12:47 PM
This is totally related to this post... This is a letter from a Norwegian politician who explains his experience in this underground base: http://jlnavarro.blogspot.com/2012/07/b ... ainst.html also a link to many letters that came in after this letter was published : http://jlnavarro.blogspot.com/2012/06/i ... o-get.html

Anonymous July 15, 2012 1:11 PM
I'm skeptical, since visibility was not that poor, still open for miles.