Who owns the IRS? and, by extension, the U.S. Government?

[Gregg]

In case the post above is approved; it's accurate but not relevant. The Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta is not the same think as the Federal Reserve Board, although their initials both start with FRB.

For the one more time...

The 12 Federal Reserve Banks are private corporations, owned by the member banks, who pay in capitol as determined by, well, it's complicated but in the end The Federal Reserve Board. The Federal Reserve Board is a government entity, whose members are appointed by the President, approved by The Senate and afterwards are accountable to no one but perhaps God and the ghosts of economists past. It has to be that way, because the alternative is making them accountable to elected officials which is like putting 17 year old boys in charge of race cars, draft beer, 17 year old girls and recreational explosives.m It would end badly. Imagine Ron Paul running monetary policy and Robert Byrd controlling spending. That road leads to chaos and most of the Federal Government being relocated to Buttphuck West Virginia.

Anyway, back to the banks. They are owned by the member banks and NO ONE ELSE. The Rockefeller family's only "ownership" would derive strictly from any stock they own in publicly held bank stocks. (at one time David R owned a big stake in Chase I think, might have been another one, but he did have a 5% or greater interest) Anyhow, the banks are paid a fixed rate of return on their invested capital, currently 6%, and that's all they or anyone else gets for owning a Federal Reserve Bank. The rest of the "profit" earned by the 12 Fed Banks is turned over the Treasury of the United States. (in 2011 just shy of $80 Billion) In contrast to all the stupid conspiracy websites about the Fed bleeding the government, in fact the Government makes a very nice little profit from regulating the Fed, and these payments far exceed the operating budget of the Federal Reserve Board (2010 $470 million).

For a more detailed explanation, either go to http://www.federalreserve.gov/aboutthefed/default.htm or as mentioned above get a degree in Economics. When you get a Masters or higher, or otherwise demonstrate genuine desire for knowledge and not just some fact or quote to use out of context, come back and I'll talk to you about it. If you're just a "cut and paste and twist and bullshit" poster, I don't have the time, inclination or desire to help you.

[Prof]

RE:

(at one time David R owned a big stake in Manny Hanny I think, might have been another one, but he did have a 5% or greater interest)

--

He was chairman at Chase Nat'l Bank, later known as Chase Manhattan, now known as JPMorgan Chase.

[The Operative]

In case the post above is approved; it's accurate but not relevant. The Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta is not the same think as the Federal Reserve Board, although their initials both start with FRB.

Anyway, back to the banks. They are owned by the member banks and NO ONE ELSE. The Rockefeller family's only "ownership" would derive strictly from any stock they own in publicly held bank stocks. (at one time David R owned a big stake in Chase I think, might have been another one, but he did have a 5% or greater interest) Anyhow, the banks are paid a fixed rate of return on their invested capital, currently 6%, and that's all they or anyone else gets for owning a Federal Reserve Bank. The rest of the "profit" earned by the 12 Fed Banks is turned over the Treasury of the United States. (in 2011 just shy of $80 Billion) In contrast to all the stupid conspiracy websites about the Fed bleeding the government, in fact the Government makes a very nice little profit from regulating the Fed, and these payments far exceed the operating budget of the Federal Reserve Board (2010 $470 million).

A little bit more clarification. By law, banks with a national charter are required to become members in the Federal Reserve System. Banks with a state charter may, but are not required to, become members if they meet certain requirements. To become members, the banks must subscribe to an amount of stock in one of the Federal Reserve district banks that is equal to 3% of the member bank's paid in capital.

I say subscribe and not own because this stock is different than corporate stock. The member banks may not trade, sell or even give away the stock. Also, it confers no rights of ownership beyond the subscription price and an annual 6% dividend. Member banks do get to elect SIX of the nine members of the Board of Directors for the district bank. However, each bank only gets ONE vote per seat and only votes on TWO seats. It is setup this way so all member banks have an equal input into the Board of Directors regardless of their size. Those elected are subject to approval by the Board of Governors. The other three members of the Board of Directors are selected by the Board of Governors directly and the Chairman and Vice Chairman of the Board are chosen by the Board of Governors from those three. So, while the member banks may have some influence over a district bank, that influence is minimal. Finally, if a Federal Reserve district bank were to be dissolved, member banks would have their subscription amount returned plus any unpaid dividend. All other assets and liabilities would become the property and responsibility of the U.S. Government.

All of this is spelled out in the law for anyone who bothers to read and understand it.

[Gregg]

RE:

(at one time David R owned a big stake in Manny Hanny I think, might have been another one, but he did have a 5% or greater interest)

--

He was chairman at Chase Nat'l Bank, later known as Chase Manhattan, now known as JPMorgan Chase.

Yeah, I corrected that as you were correcting me. I knew it was Chase, I was just brain dead for a few minutes. I still find it amusing that the bank I will always think of as Chase Manhattan is now based in Columbus Ohio.

[fortinbras]

I have tried in vain to find the CRS report that says this:

For example, according to the Congressional Research Service, 100% of all personal income tax collected for the year 2005 went, not to the government to provide goods and services expected, but to the FED.

Since I cannot find this CRS report, I ask you, Inquirer, to provide a working link to that CRS report.

[Gregg]

I am bumping this thread as the OP has shown us more recently that he still doesn't know much about the Fed.

[notorial dissent]

fortinbras, you are wasting your time searching as there simply is no such report.

I have seen this particular piece of drivel several times before, it came off some website years and years ago, and has been gleefully reposted as their own work by any number of the lazy and reality challenged. It was beautifully refuted in one thread that that I came across and produced the actual numbers involved, bearing no resemblance to anything the troll had posted. I thought I had saved it for future use, but if I can not now find it.

At any rate, our troll du jour has produced nothing new or original, and is incapable of actually answering any questions, as it was strictly a cut and paste job. The aforementioned troll is also adverse to actually responding with anything like a real answer, just posts more of the same nonsense.

[LPC]

Just finished a court filing I had been working on for three days, so I need a break.

For example, according to the Congressional Research Service, 100% of all personal income tax collected for the year 2005 went, not to the government to provide goods and services expected, but to the FED. This was also pointed out by the Grace Commission, appointed by Ronald Reagan, in 1984.

No one commented on this when this was first posted, but in the absence of a decent time machine, it would have been very difficult for the Grace Commission, in 1984, to comment on the personal income tax that was collected in 2005.

Anyway, that's not what the Grace Commission said. In the cover letter to the report of the Private Sector Survey on Cost Control (and not in the actual report), the chair of the commission, J. Peter Grace, wrote that "100 percent of what is collected [of personal income tax] is absorbed solely by interest on the federal debt and by federal government contributions to transfer payments."

Now, interest on the national debt is NOT paid to "the FED," but to the owners of treasury notes and treasury bills, of which the Federal Reserve owns only about 11%.

Also, Peter Grace wasn't just talking about interest on the national debt, but also "transfer payments." I haven't been able to track down a copy of the complete report to figure out what was meant by "transfer payments," but the phrase is often used to describe payments such as welfare payments and Social Security benefits, in which case the whole idea that all of personal income taxes are going to "the FED" really goes to hell.

And, notwithstanding what the reality-impaired might believe, the situation changed dramatically from 1984 to 2005. According to the IRS, federal income in fiscal year 2005 was $2.2 trillion, and personal income tax was 38% of that, or $836 billion. Meanwhile, outlays were $2.5 trillion, of which interest on the national debt (not all of which is paid to the Federal Reserve system) was 7%, or $175 billion. Needless to say, $836 billion is much more than $175 billion, so not all personal income tax goes to pay interest on the national debt.

[Cpt Banjo]

The cover letter to the report went further:

Resistance to additional income taxes would be even more widespread if people were aware that:

One-third of all their taxes is consumed by waste and inefficiency in the Federal Government as we identified in our survey.

Another one-third of all their taxes escapes collection from others as the underground economy blossoms in direct proportion to tax increases and places even more pressure on law abiding taxpayers, promoting still more underground economy -- a vicious cycle that must be broken.

With two-thirds of everyone's personal income taxes wasted or not collected, 100 percent of what is collected is absorbed solely by interest on the Federal debt and by Federal Government contributions to transfer payments. In other words, all individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services which taxpayers expect from their Government.

So a third was actually spent on federal programs that the Commission characterized as wasteful, a third wasn't even collected, and a third went to interest and transfer payments.