Amsterdam to Vienna

[Demosthenes]

Have any of you spent time in Amsterdam or Vienna? We're taking a two-week river cruise that goes down the Rhine, the Main, and the Danube and we will spend a few extra days at either end. I've been to Amsterdam before but am always looking for more must-sees, and this will be my first trip to Vienna.

So far in Amsterdam, we plan on seeing the Van Gogh Museum, the Rijksmuseum, the Cat Museum, the Chocolate Museum, and the Kroller Muller Museum a couple of hours outside of town. We may do the daunting daytrip to the Floriade but that's a very long day. What else? In past trips, we've done the Anne Frank house and the canal tour.

This trip is Germany intensive, with stops in Cologne, Boppard, Frankfurt, Miltenberg, Würzburg, Nuremberg, Bamberg, Regensburg, and Passau. Can anyone highly recommend anything in these towns? We plan on touring the Nuremberg courthouse, and Seigfreid's Music Museum in Boppard, the Cologne Cathedral, and the Würzburg Residenz.

[The Observer]

An excellent option for touring the Rhine and Danube river vallies.

We took the Uniword tour down the Rhine from Basel to Amsterdam. Not sure what cruise line you are going with, but our tour was excellent in terms of service, food, facilities and comfort. The entire crew was proficient in English, despite being from all over Europe (our maitre'd was from Portugal and spoke perfect English). The only negative was that the boat's engines tended to be a bit loud at night when you were trying to sleep.

I have nothing else to recommed for Amsterdam since you are covering everything that I saw. Try the Dutch "pancakes" that are on sale at several restaurants throughout the city, if you haven't already done that on your previous trip.

Our tour covered the city of Cologne, but also had stops in Strasbourg and Colmar which had historical importance for our visit. In Cologne, the cathedral is the main point of visiting, but as well as shopping for fragrances. There is a museum near the cathedral that we didn't have time to visit on the history of the region (there is an interesting exhibit covered with glass over the ongoing excavation of Roman ruins).

Strasbourg is the capitol of the European Union, selected mainly as it is a of city of German and French influence due to it changing hands so many times over the years of warfare. Colmar is the same but has resisted a lot of the modernization that Strasbourg has gone through. There is a very old section of town that still keeps its medieval wooden structures maintained and painted as they would have looked 500 years ago. But since your tour appears to be routing through the Main you will be bypassing the southern Rhine and won't get to see these.

If your tour offers stops at local wineries along the Rhine or Danube, I would recommend paying the extra fee to do so. You will not find wines like these here in the US.

[Doktor Avalanche]

They tell me the hash bars and bordellos in Amsterdam are first rate.

They are but if recent legislation was passed you, as a non-Dutch citizen, will not be able to partake in either of them.

[The Dog]

Been to both, but neither for a while.

In Amsterdam, I would add the Amstelkring
http://www.opsolder.nl/eng/home.php

Personally, I'm not fond of Amsterdam as the "cannabis culture" (which seems to be driven largely by foreign tourists) has rather taken over. I would consider Den Haag (especially Escher in het Paleis http://www.escherinhetpaleis.nl/ ) or Delft (though it's a bit of a tourist trap, the entire market square is lined with shops selling blue and white pots made in China).

We had a lot of difficulty buying railway tickets earlier this year in Rotterdam and Den Haag as the ticket machines do not seem to take foreign credit cards and do not accept banknotes either! There are ticket offices at larger stations, but they charge a premium for ticket sales.

Cologne was almost completely destroyed in the last war and the rebuilt city has little to recommend it apart from the cathedral.

Vienna is curious as it has an expansive city centre, but lacks the urban sprawl that typically surrounds such cities. It is a city for wandering around the wide avenues. At the centre is St Stephen's Cathedral (the catacombs below contain enormous piles of bones). The Ferris Wheel (Riesenrad), made famous by "The Third Man" is in the Prater amusement park a short walk from the city centre. (I think you can book dinner in one of the pods http://www.wienerriesenrad.com/index.ph ... er&lang=en )

There's a large number of museums, but because all my visits have been short trips (and the last two on business), I've not been in many of them.

[Demosthenes]

We're on Uniworld as well, The Observer.

Thanks, The Dog.

[Demosthenes]

Probably not much. The potheads weren't spending all that much in town, and a couple of the brothels have been converted into high end restaurants.

[Demosthenes]

Just returned from three weeks in Europe.

Amsterdam - what a waste of what could be a beautiful and historically important city. Now, it's Euro-trash and the party hardy, American frat boy crowd, drinking hard, puking on the pavement, and wandering loudly through the red light district. 42% of the city's revenue is tourism and they seem intent on catering to people who just want to pass out. Plus, the locals hate the tourists, and insist on running them down on their bicycles. Motorbikes dominate the bike lanes and will swerve to hit you. Nice. The Van Gogh Museum rocks, and is a real shining light in the city.

Germany (sailing down the Rhine, the Main, and the Danube) - Fascinating place, with small towns packed so full of adorable charm you almost feel like you're at Disneyland. Really nice people, too, with surprisingly good food and not-surprisingly excellent beer and wine. But they are in complete denial over their quasi-recent history. Buildings that were demolished by the Allies have been faithfully reproduced so that the cities can pretend the war never happened. I can't think of anywhere else in the world where you have to ask if a major landmark is real or a reproduction. Nuremberg was particular interesting. Hitler's Nazi Party Rally Grounds are still in place, without so much as a placard, and are currently used for rock concerts and car races. The infamous Courtroom 600 where the trials took place is still an active courtroom only now they've put a giant crucifix on the wall, which violates current German law. Only the Documentation Center, built in Hitler's unfinished Colosseum, addressed the war head on, and that only opened in 2001.

Austria? I'm glad I've seen it, but just about every important landmark in Vienna was a fake. The big positives for me in both Salzburg and Vienna were the Mozart museums, although of the three apartments where he lived, one is a reproduction financed by the Japanese. I had heard so many good things about Vienna, but it's so touristy and fake and charmless that I doubt I'll return. It's supposed to be the classical center of the world, but every concert I could find was watered down for the lowest common tourist denominator. Lots of Strauss and top ten easy listening Mozart excerpts.

And the Danube wasn't blue.

[webhick]

So, Europe sucks in general?

And the Danube wasn't blue.

Of course not. It's bright pink.

[Demosthenes]

Europe most definitely does not suck.

Small town Germany was a delight, and I will always love visiting Italy, France, Great Britain, and Belgium, Turkey, Greece, and Portugal. I've even warmed up considerably to Spain in recent years. Heck, I even like Malta.

[Demosthenes]

Next stop. Tahiti.

[Imalawman]

Next stop. Tahiti.

Wow, sorry for your rough life.

[Famspear]

....But they [the Germans] are in complete denial over their quasi-recent history. Buildings that were demolished by the Allies have been faithfully reproduced so that the cities can pretend the war never happened. I can't think of anywhere else in the world where you have to ask if a major landmark is real or a reproduction......

I found that out in a slightly embarrassing or uncomfortable way when my wife and I visited her German cousins (whom she had never known or met) fifteen years ago. (Her late father was from Germany and had come to the United States many, many years before.) One day, we were walking on the grounds outside the Schloss in Karlsruhe, admiring the building. I asked the cousins how old the building was (thinking they would say several hundred years). They told me that the castle had been built after World War II -- to replace the one that had been destroyed by the Allied bombing.

During our tour of Karlsruhe they also pointed out the building housing the Bundesgerichtshof, or Supreme Court of Germany. I asked why the German Supreme Court was located in Karlsruhe rather than in the capital, and they said that after the war, the effort had been made to separate the various instrumentalities of government as much as possible, to -- as they put it -- avoid having too much political power concentrated in one man.

When we were riding with her cousins in the car in the Black Forest area near the Rhine border with France, I happened to notice that the bridges over various streams of water had little circular signs on them, with numbers on the signs. I couldn't figure out what the signs were for, and I innocently inquired of her German cousins. They explained that the numbers on the signs were weight limit indicators -- in case tanks should be using the roads and bridges -- apparently so that army personnel would know whether a given bridge could support a given tank. This was in 1997.

I dropped the subject at that point.

[Famspear]

I have to say, though, that I loved what we have seen of Germany, and we have found the people to be great -- both her cousins and the people generally. Bavaria (e.g., Rothenburg ob der Tauber), Fuessen, Neuschwanstein, Hohenschwangau, and over into Reutte, Austria, then the Black Forest (including Freiburg im Breisgau, Emmendingen, Breisach am Rhein) and up to Karlsruhe, to the Rhineland (e.g., Burg Rheinfels, Lorelei) and Mosel River areas, and over to Trier. Beautiful country.

[Pottapaug1938]

When we were riding with her cousins in the car in the Black Forest area near the Rhine border with France, I happened to notice that the bridges over various streams of water had little circular signs on them, with numbers on the signs. I couldn't figure out what the signs were for, and I innocently inquired of her German cousins. They explained that the numbers on the signs were weight limit indicators -- in case tanks should be using the roads and bridges -- apparently so that army personnel would know whether a given bridge could support a given tank. This was in 1997.

I dropped the subject at that point.

Well, 1997 was only six years after the Soviet Union went belly-up; so perhaps those were old signs.

[Burnaby49]

When we were riding with her cousins in the car in the Black Forest area near the Rhine border with France, I happened to notice that the bridges over various streams of water had little circular signs on them, with numbers on the signs. I couldn't figure out what the signs were for, and I innocently inquired of her German cousins. They explained that the numbers on the signs were weight limit indicators -- in case tanks should be using the roads and bridges -- apparently so that army personnel would know whether a given bridge could support a given tank. This was in 1997.

I doubt they were WWII remnants. During the cold war the US had (and may still have, I don't keep track) a huge military presence in Germany to counter any Soviet aggression. It was assumed that any Soviet invasion would be spearheaded by massive tank attacks through Germany and the US countered by having a great number of tanks in combat readiness. The US and German tank arms did many combined exercises in the German countryside (the assumed battleground). These bridges were probably marked with weight indicators so that US and German tank commanders would know what bridges could, or could not, be used in exercises and in combat if an invasion actually ocurred.

[ArthurWankspittle]

As has been said, the weight limit signs were almost certainly cold war signs for the heavier NATO equipment. In the 70s and 80s this would be normal preparedness in western Europe. In those years for instance the biggest numbers of UK troops stationed overseas were in west Germany. Also, we had an enormously heavy tank, the Chieftain, compared to everyone else. I also recall being in Austria in the 80s and seeing signs on buildings which effectively said "In the event of WW3 please try not to demolish this building as it has some historic significance".

[The Dog]

....But they [the Germans] are in complete denial over their quasi-recent history. Buildings that were demolished by the Allies have been faithfully reproduced so that the cities can pretend the war never happened. I can't think of anywhere else in the world where you have to ask if a major landmark is real or a reproduction......

I think you would be surprised.

The roof of York Minster and several windows were replaced in the 1980s following a fire, a substantial part of Windsor Castle was rebuilt following a fire in 1992. Many cathedrals in northern France were substantially rebuilt after virtual complete destruction in the First or Second World Wars (e.g. Amiens, Rouen and Rheims) as was the Mediaeval Hall in Ypres.

In the City of London, many Wren Churches and livery halls were rebuilt after destruction in the "Blitz" as was the chamber of the House of Commons.

Avebury Henge in its present form was substantially recreated by the demolition of a number of houses, the reexcavation of the ditches and the reerection of the stones in the 1920s. At Stonehenge, individual stones have been re-erected from time to time.

Probably the greatest example of a rebuilt city is Warsaw.

[Demosthenes]

I understand repairing damaged buildings and such, but completely building reproductions from scratch seems icky (and fantastically expensive) to me.

Some of the WWII remnants along the Rhine were interesting. When Hitler realized that the Allies wouldn't bomb the beautiful medieval castles on the Rhine, he had fake castle fronts built to camouflage the train tunnel openings, and then built fake tunnel openings nearby to give the Allies something to attack.

[Demosthenes]

I saw reproductions of palaces, city halls, buildings where famous people (Goethe, Mozart, etc) once lived, a couple of big churches, opera houses, museums, but no synagogues.

I also saw some neo-Nazi graffiti. Apparently, they're starting to gain ground again in Germany in response to the recent wave of immigrants from Turkey, Serbia, and beyond.

I talked with a German woman who grew up in Franconia in the 1960s and she said her text books growing up never mentioned Hitler. Her German history books simply stopped with the Weimar Republic.

[The Dog]

I saw reproductions of palaces, city halls, buildings where famous people (Goethe, Mozart, etc) once lived, a couple of big churches, opera houses, museums, but no synagogues.

I also saw some neo-Nazi graffiti. Apparently, they're starting to gain ground again in Germany in response to the recent wave of immigrants from Turkey, Serbia, and beyond.

I talked with a German woman who grew up in Franconia in the 1960s and she said her text books growing up never mentioned Hitler. Her German history books simply stopped with the Weimar Republic.

The only city I have been to in central Europe with prominent synagogues is Prague.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josefov

In fairness my (British) history lessons skipped over the American War of Independence and the latter half of the Hundred Years War (Crecy and Poitiers were covered in detail!).

There has been somerthing of a revival of neo-Nazis in Europe, not just in Germany, but also in Poland, the Ukraine and the Netherlands. Our local ones are not very good at history though.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... oster.html