Sins of the Father

[wserra]

"Morgan_Edwards" continues the sage advice:

So your daughter has called the IRS agent and pointed out 6331(a) to them and they did nothing about it?
If that's the case, you need to demand to talk with that agent's supervisor - they must comply and give you the supervisor's contact information. If the supervisor does not wish to acknowlege (sic) the limits to the levy power, you ask them for their supervisor's information. Do this until they stop and reverse course.

Or until you find yourself talking to the dial tone, something that seems both more likely and more appropriate.

[LPC]

Call me crazy, but I've always believed that the acid test of a legal theorem is its ability to keep its own creator out of federal prison.

As "acid tests" go, you've set a pretty low bar.

I know I've said this before, but I feel compelled to point out again that Hendrickson had the best possible procedural posture in both of his cases. He didn't lose in Tax Court, where he could claim bias, not an Article III judge, no jury, etc. He lost:

1. In the action for the erroneous refund, (a) the burden of proof was on the government (and not the taxpayer, which is the way it works in Tax Court and in refund cases), (b) the judge was an Article III judge, and (c) Hendrickson had the right to a trial by jury. He lost on summary judgment (no factual issues) and on appeal he was sanctioned for a frivolous appeal (by three more Article III judges).

2. In his criminal prosecution, he was entitled to get (and got) a trial by jury, and the government was required to prove BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT that no only were the returns that Hendrickson filed false, but he KNEW they were false. Result: 27 months in prison.

So here's how low the bar was for Hendrickson: He couldn't convince even one in twelve people picked pretty much at random that he had an honest and good faith belief in his own legal theory.

He didn't need to convince them that it was right, but only that he thought it was right.

And he failed.

That's pretty bad.

[Famspear]

"kris" at losthorizons writes:

She [kris's daughter] hasn't talked to anyone except her HR rep in Minnesota so far. I am going to start making calls tomorrow for her, to the clerks office, sec of states office - if nec - and do exactly what you said, point out 6331(a) to them. and go up the chain of command if nec, and I am sure it will be - but I will not quit either.

This is all bogus, and they know it. I am just fighting mad over it. all the other people I have helped and taught about CTC have had much more positive luck than she, and they are the only ones who have not received a dime in the last 2 1/2 yrs!
Thank you for your help. I will update as I have more info.

I would think that the best hope for "help" for kris's daughter would be found in connection with Internal Revenue Code section 6702(d):

(d) Reduction of penalty
The Secretary may reduce the amount of any penalty imposed under this section if the Secretary determines that such reduction would promote compliance with and administration of the Federal tax laws.

Maybe, throw yourself on the mercy of the IRS and try to work some sort of deal. Offer to do public service announcements to dissuade others from the bad behavior......

[ashlynne39]

"kris" at losthorizons writes:

She [kris's daughter] hasn't talked to anyone except her HR rep in Minnesota so far. I am going to start making calls tomorrow for her, to the clerks office, sec of states office - if nec - and do exactly what you said, point out 6331(a) to them. and go up the chain of command if nec, and I am sure it will be - but I will not quit either.

This is all bogus, and they know it. I am just fighting mad over it. all the other people I have helped and taught about CTC have had much more positive luck than she, and they are the only ones who have not received a dime in the last 2 1/2 yrs!
Thank you for your help. I will update as I have more info.

I would think that the best hope for "help" for kris's daughter would be found in connection with Internal Revenue Code section 6702(d):

(d) Reduction of penalty
The Secretary may reduce the amount of any penalty imposed under this section if the Secretary determines that such reduction would promote compliance with and administration of the Federal tax laws.

Maybe, throw yourself on the mercy of the IRS and try to work some sort of deal. Offer to do public service announcements to dissuade others from the bad behavior......

Would it help for Kris's daughter to throw Kris under the bus? Kris's daughter is clearly a moron for letting her nut job mother file her taxes or not as the case may be in the CTC method but could she get any reduction by testifying against her mom? Not a tax attorney (me) is just wondering.

[NYGman]

Feel bad for the daughter, probably clueless, at lest I hope. Shouldn't someone tell kris she was stupid following this advice and continuing this farce will not end well. Kris says she helped others, she may want to tell them to start panicking, it may only be a matter of time.

[Cathulhu]

It isn't likely that the Revenue Officer who filed the lien will discuss it with a third party. Kris' daughter would have to give her parent a POA and a copy to IRS before they get anything but: "Disclosure law means I cannot discuss a case with anyone but the actual taxpayers."

[Quixote]

"kris" at losthorizons writes:

She [kris's daughter] hasn't talked to anyone except her HR rep in Minnesota so far. I am going to start making calls tomorrow for her, to the clerks office, sec of states office - if nec - and do exactly what you said, point out 6331(a) to them. and go up the chain of command if nec, and I am sure it will be - but I will not quit either.

This is all bogus, and they know it. I am just fighting mad over it. all the other people I have helped and taught about CTC have had much more positive luck than she, and they are the only ones who have not received a dime in the last 2 1/2 yrs!
Thank you for your help. I will update as I have more info.

I would think that the best hope for "help" for kris's daughter would be found in connection with Internal Revenue Code section 6702(d):

(d) Reduction of penalty
The Secretary may reduce the amount of any penalty imposed under this section if the Secretary determines that such reduction would promote compliance with and administration of the Federal tax laws.

Maybe, throw yourself on the mercy of the IRS and try to work some sort of deal. Offer to do public service announcements to dissuade others from the bad behavior......

Unfortunately, Kris's daughter would face an uphill battle throwing herself on the mercy of the IRS. The people who send out the frivilous return letters and assess the penalty are not the ones who determined that the return was frivilous. However, any contact made by the taxpayer in connection with the penalty goes to the unit that assessed it. All they will do unless pushed is to verify that the assessment was procedurally correct. Her best bet would be to contact the Taxpayer Advocate Service (TAS) and have what one TAS analyst called a "come to Jesus moment", i.e., to admit that she was stupid to listen to Kris, file good returns, and promise never ever ever to do it again.

[Gregg]

You may want to have her ask the HR people if they received a copy of the warrant of distraint necessary to implement the levy/lien action. When they respond NO, you may want to have her tell them that by surrendering her fungible property they are abetting an extortion and are liable in a court of law. So you have good grounds for suing them...

Seeing as they're all so damn "sue the bastards" happy, I find it hard to believe that it's not common knowledge that an employer is absolutely immune from suit for doing what the IRS says. Even if the IRS is terribly wrong, the employer is darn nigh impossible to sue.

[.]

Common knowledge? They're immune to that stuff.

Holy God Almighty could appear and tell them that they're full of it and they'd still run up amazing totals of penalties for stupid, frivolous tax and court filings. It's what they do.

[Famspear]

"kris" at losthorizons is having trouble getting IRS personnel to talk with her:

OK, I called [the Internal Revenue Service in] Fresno, and Fresno absolutely refused to speak to me, and told me it was out of their jurisdiction, and I had to speak to Ogden. I even specifically asked him if he was in Fresno, he said yes, and I told him the letter we received came from Fresno, you are in Fresno, and the levy was issued by Fresno, I want to talk to Fresno not Ogden, and he again, said I had to talk to Ogden, and hung up on me.
I called Ogden just now, (twice) talked to two different people, and both were identicle basically. Refused to let me speak, said the return is FRIVOLOUS, and refused to let me say hardly anything, spoke over me most of the time, and again hung up on me! I asked repeatedly for both of them to tell me what 'activity' was engaged in to make it taxable, and they just parroted the same responses again, refusing to even adresss my question.
What now????

Unfortuately, I work til 3 so I have little time to argue with these idiots. Maybe I am not saying this correctly....??

from

http://www.losthorizons.com/phpBB/viewt ... 39bf#28717

[LPC]

I called Ogden just now, (twice) talked to two different people, and both were identicle basically. Refused to let me speak, said the return is FRIVOLOUS, and refused to let me say hardly anything, spoke over me most of the time, and again hung up on me!

Good thinking on their part. Always avoid conversations with time-wasting morons. (To paraphrase Dilbert.)

I asked repeatedly for both of them to tell me what 'activity' was engaged in to make it taxable, and they just parroted the same responses again, refusing to even adresss my question.
What now????

Start learning to deal with reality?

Just a thought.

[Cathulhu]

There's a highly technical term used by IRS hotline personnel for such calls. It's "boo f*cking hoo".

[Famspear]

.....I asked repeatedly for both of them to tell me what 'activity' was engaged in to make it taxable, and they just parroted the same responses again, refusing to even adresss my question.....

I find it ironic that she refers to the IRS personnel as "just parroting the same responses."

Arrraaaack! What was my taxable activity? What was my taxable activity? Arrraaaack! Arrraaaack!

[.]

I had to speak to Ogden.

Ogden?

It's funny, Ogden is an IRS processing center, one of many all over the country, but nobody, not one single person in any state in the entire U.S., or even anyone filing from outside the U.S. is instructed to mail their 1040 (of any variety) to Ogden. Not even anyone in Utah.

Employment tax forms like 941s go there. Some tax-exempt stuff goes there. A lot of corporate and partnership stuff goes there.

And apparently every frivolous TP return (even though the IRS can't call them TPs) goes there after it's detected, for, what shall we say -- perhaps a bit more scrutiny?

Bwahaha.

Welcome to TP hell. Where they don't just have your number, they have all of them, or will shortly, not to mention most or all of your money and maybe your liberty after the DoJ is through with you.

I heard that Webhick designed the Ogden torture chambers. With special treats for TP losers who can't spell, say, something simple like "identical."

I think "kris" is about to find out just how special he or she and that return really is, maybe starting with a $5K penalty.

[Kestrel]

"kris" at losthorizons is having trouble getting IRS personnel to talk with her:

OK, I called [the Internal Revenue Service in] Fresno, and Fresno absolutely refused to speak to me, and told me it was out of their jurisdiction, and I had to speak to Ogden. I even specifically asked him if he was in Fresno, he said yes, and I told him the letter we received came from Fresno, you are in Fresno, and the levy was issued by Fresno, I want to talk to Fresno not Ogden, and he again, said I had to talk to Ogden, and hung up on me.
I called Ogden just now, (twice) talked to two different people, and both were identicle basically. Refused to let me speak, said the return is FRIVOLOUS, and refused to let me say hardly anything, spoke over me most of the time, and again hung up on me! I asked repeatedly for both of them to tell me what 'activity' was engaged in to make it taxable, and they just parroted the same responses again, refusing to even adresss my question.
What now????

Unfortuately, I work til 3 so I have little time to argue with these idiots. Maybe I am not saying this correctly....??

from

http://www.losthorizons.com/phpBB/viewt ... 39bf#28717

Just how is it that anyone at the IRS is even talking to Kris about her offspring's tax return?

Yes, yes, I know the kids could have filed an IRS Form 2848, Power of Attorney and Declaration of Representative, naming Kris as their representative. I have an itchy feeling, however, that Kris is more likely masquerading as either the daughter or her husband.

The kids would have been better off filing an IRS form 14157-A, Tax Return Preparer Fraud or Misconduct Affidavit.

[grixit]

OK, I called [the Internal Revenue Service in] Fresno, and Fresno absolutely refused to speak to me, and told me it was out of their jurisdiction, and I had to speak to Ogden. I even specifically asked him if he was in Fresno, he said yes, and I told him the letter we received came from Fresno, you are in Fresno, and the levy was issued by Fresno, I want to talk to Fresno not Ogden, and he again, said I had to talk to Ogden, and hung up on me.
I called Ogden just now, (twice) talked to two different people, and both were identicle basically. Refused to let me speak, said the return is FRIVOLOUS, and refused to let me say hardly anything, spoke over me most of the time, and again hung up on me! I asked repeatedly for both of them to tell me what 'activity' was engaged in to make it taxable, and they just parroted the same responses again, refusing to even adresss my question.
What now????

Unfortuately, I work til 3 so I have little time to argue with these idiots. Maybe I am not saying this correctly....??

Not quite. You probably made a common rookie mistake. You probably remembered Pete's instructions that "...at all times, when speaking to IRS flunkies, you must wear a pair of orange and green checkered boxer shorts on your head. And no doubt, you scrupulously informed said flunkes that you were doing so. But were you actually doing so? It's important: flunkies will always give you the brush off if you don't. And they can tell-- even over the phone.

[Gregg]

OK, I called [the Internal Revenue Service in] Fresno, and Fresno absolutely refused to speak to me, and told me it was out of their jurisdiction, and I had to speak to Ogden. I even specifically asked him if he was in Fresno, he said yes, and I told him the letter we received came from Fresno, you are in Fresno, and the levy was issued by Fresno, I want to talk to Fresno not Ogden, and he again, said I had to talk to Ogden, and hung up on me.
I called Ogden just now, (twice) talked to two different people, and both were identicle basically. Refused to let me speak, said the return is FRIVOLOUS, and refused to let me say hardly anything, spoke over me most of the time, and again hung up on me! I asked repeatedly for both of them to tell me what 'activity' was engaged in to make it taxable, and they just parroted the same responses again, refusing to even adresss my question.
What now????

Unfortuately, I work til 3 so I have little time to argue with these idiots. Maybe I am not saying this correctly....??

Not quite. You probably made a common rookie mistake. You probably remembered Pete's instructions that "...at all times, when speaking to IRS flunkies, you must wear a pair of orange and green checkered boxer shorts on your head. And no doubt, you scrupulously informed said flunkes that you were doing so. But were you actually doing so? It's important: flunkies will always give you the brush off if you don't. And they can tell-- even over the phone.

Boxer Shorts? I thought it was a bra?

[wserra]

I asked repeatedly for both of them to tell me what 'activity' was engaged in to make it taxable, and they just parroted the same responses again, refusing to even adresss my question.

"I asked repeatedly for both of them to tell me what 'activity' was engaged in to make 1+1=2, and they just parroted the same responses again, refusing to even adresss my question."

What now????

Retake first grade.

[Quixote]

It is so frustrating to watch kris ruin her daughter's life and not be able to intervene. kris has provided an e-mail address, but talking to her would be a waste of time. She is too deep in the Kool-ade. Her daughter, the one who is suffering, is getting everything filtered through Mom's fevered brain. The folks the daughter spoke to in HR, even if they understand what's going on, are not equipped to steer her in the right direction.

[Kestrel]

It is so frustrating to watch kris ruin her daughter's life and not be able to intervene. kris has provided an e-mail address, but talking to her would be a waste of time. She is too deep in the Kool-ade. Her daughter, the one who is suffering, is getting everything filtered through Mom's fevered brain. The folks the daughter spoke to in HR, even if they understand what's going on, are not equipped to steer her in the right direction.

Don't feel too bad. It's not like daughter and husband are living inside a box; they're not. More like they're being willfully blind.

After all this time, despite all evidence to the contrary, they STILL stoopidly trust Kris to "fix" the mess she created. The only way Kris could legitimately discuss their taxes with the IRS is if they signed an IRS Form 2848. And if they DID sign it, they're imbibing deeply in the Kool-ade themselves.

Of course, Kris could have forged their signatures on a Form 2848, or she could be masquerading as them without their knowledge when she telephones the IRS. But I'll tell you what. If an IRS levy with MY name attached to it showed up unexpectedly you can be damn sure I'd insist on finding out EVERYTHING real fast. And fixing it myself, TYVM!