Is there such a thing as TP/Soverigns common characteristics

[LightinDarkness]

One thing I've noticed over the years is that TPs and Soverigns seem to share common socioeconomic characteristics*. Note that I'm not saying all TPs/Soverigns have these, just that they APPEAR to be the most COMMON amongst these groups.

- Low income
- Low education levels
- Extremest political ideology (either far left or far right)
- Predisposed to believe in contemporary conspiracy theories
- More likely to be on government assistance
- A sense that their life circumstances are 100% attributable to outside parties
- Finds substantive meaning in coincidences - nothing ever "just happens"
- They begin their journey "down the rabbit hole" often in response to some huge life event like losing their job/business/going on disability, etc.

Does anyone else observe this? I know its impossible to fit TPs and Sovereigns into a typology - but they do seem to share these characteristics for the most part. There are exceptions - I've seen TPs with significant assets and those with PhDs, but they are the exception to the rules.

[.]

Maybe 70% of them are your basic bunch of morons.

Lots of chiropractors, dentists and airline pilots. The occasional misguided lawyer.

[notorial dissent]

Well, the "does not play well with others" appellation certainly seems to fit the majority of them, since they can't even get along or agree with each other for more than a few moments at a time, since they can't really agree on what they believe in.

[Chados]

The ones I've seen have all had things in common:

Such as a major financial mishap. Bankruptcy, loss of a job, that sort of thing. They're desperate and looking for any way out.

Another thing they have in common is a readiness to blame others for their problems, chiefly government employees. If only they were in charge, it would all be better.

Most have a healthy dose of some sort of racism.

Most have a disordered sense of self-they think they are the center of the universe. Many want to be important, such as naming themselves the Chief Justice of the Republic for the united States, when they never went to law school (example: Nathan Joel Peachey), or Postmaster-General of North America (example: James T. McBride) when no one ever appointed or elected them to jack, or President of the country when no one even knows who they are (James Timothy Turner), or a judge of God knows what, with his own take on language (example: David Wynn Miller)...the list is endless. In real life, they're nobody.

I've seen these guys come from all walks of life, too. A financial planner who used to be the finance manager for a major car dealer in this area. A guy who didn't get out of 11th grade, but thinks he's the answer to the judiciary. A guy on disability who hates the government that's feeding him. A retired military veteran who'd never been in trouble in his life til he hooked up with these guys and started signing fake court orders from a sovereign citizen court. The common denominators seem to be a fear of changing society, lack of personal importance and relevance, and major financial issues.

[Judge Roy Bean]

The ones I've seen have all had things in common:

Such as a major financial mishap. Bankruptcy, loss of a job, that sort of thing. They're desperate and looking for any way out.

I think you're generalizing here. Many of them have deep-seated socio-political motives that may stem from religious doctrinal roots.

Another thing they have in common is a readiness to blame others for their problems, chiefly government employees. If only they were in charge, it would all be better.

Most have a healthy dose of some sort of racism.

I think you might be conflating the "ebil gubment" type with people who have genuinely racist tendencies; they aren't necessarily synonymous.

Most have a disordered sense of self-they think they are the center of the universe. Many want to be important, such as naming themselves the Chief Justice of the Republic for the united States, when they never went to law school (example: Nathan Joel Peachey), or Postmaster-General of North America (example: James T. McBride) when no one ever appointed or elected them to jack, or President of the country when no one even knows who they are (James Timothy Turner), or a judge of God knows what, with his own take on language (example: David Wynn Miller)...the list is endless. In real life, they're nobody.

Other than the self-styled promoters and charlatans out there to make a buck, I don't think there is a common-denominator among the followers.

I've seen these guys come from all walks of life, too. A financial planner who used to be the finance manager for a major car dealer in this area. A guy who didn't get out of 11th grade, but thinks he's the answer to the judiciary. A guy on disability who hates the government that's feeding him. A retired military veteran who'd never been in trouble in his life til he hooked up with these guys and started signing fake court orders from a sovereign citizen court. The common denominators seem to be a fear of changing society, lack of personal importance and relevance, and major financial issues.

Another piece includes people who have been taken advantage of. Some percentage of those will be drawn to simple explanations.

[Burnaby49]

They congregate around Dennys.

[Captain Crunch]

Maybe 70% of them are your basic bunch of morons.

Lots of chiropractors, dentists and airline pilots. The occasional misguided lawyer.

Dentists? Yikes, I use to be afraid of them, now I'm really afraid.

[LPC]

The ones I've seen have all had things in common:

Such as a major financial mishap. Bankruptcy, loss of a job, that sort of thing. They're desperate and looking for any way out.

Another thing they have in common is a readiness to blame others for their problems, chiefly government employees. If only they were in charge, it would all be better.

I've seen those two things also.

And I'm not sure which comes first. Is the readiness to blame others a result of the financial mishap (a form of denial), or did it pre-exist, and the financial mishap just brought it to the surface?

[NYGman]

Maybe 70% of them are your basic bunch of morons.

Lots of chiropractors, dentists and airline pilots. The occasional misguided lawyer.

Dentists? Yikes, I use to be afraid of them, now I'm really afraid.

[Slightly off topic] There was actually a guy who used to market his tax scams to Dentists. He had a specific package he offered them to de-tax. Many Dentists got taken, paid for his advice and later on got slammed by the IRS. I believe he was busted several years ago, can't remember his name, but know my father went to a lecture the guy gave, (I don't remember if it was a freebe - dad likes free food, a dental meeting where he presented, or some seminar he paid for that was advertised) but decided it was a bit pricey and too good to be true, and thankfully didn't touch it.

[Kestrel]

I think you're generalizing here. Many of them have deep-seated socio-political motives that may stem from religious doctrinal roots.

The first common factor I noticed was alcoholism. Drink enough and everything makes sense. Stay drunk long enugh and 2+2 will equal 5, or 2, or sometimes even 4 if you really need it to.

Religion was just a tool, co-opted from the millions of unchurched but Bible-believing pseudo Christians who appoint themselves priest, prophet, pope and confessor every Sunday. They stay at home and read their Bibles, then self-interpret everything for their own advantage.

[Pottapaug1938]

The way I see it, a lot of sovruns/TPers are in The Movement because they feel like they are just little p*ssant nobodies, and they want to be Somebody. If you are working a cr*ppy job and getting little enough to show for it -- or at least not as much as you feel that you deserve for it; if things are not quite ideal at home; if your home is not as grand as you feel you deserve, and so on, you have two choices.

One is to work hard enough to improve your situation; and the other is to join The Movement and feel that you are a Warrior For The Cause. Instead of being known as the Custodian of the local elementary school, you can become a Tax Expert (because, unlike those fancy-pants eggheads with their fancy degrees, you have as much common sense as anyone and can read the law just like the elitist experts claim to do; but having common sense, you can see What It Really Means. And, as a Sovereign, you can strut around knowing that nobody can push you around, because you are a SOVEREIGN. You can also follow the Tim Turner route and, instead of being a fry cook at the local Denny's, you can be a Senator, Supreme Court Justice, or some other Very Important Person.

Yeah, other people will laugh at you, and others will try to persecute you for violating their so-called laws; but because you are In On The Secret, you know that you will prevail someday... and in your warm, fuzzy TP/sovrun cocoon, reality and fact will not intrude.

[fortinbras]

The TPs/Sovruns/birfers all seem afflicted with the mental illness of perseveration, where they will not give up saying the same nonsense no matter how many times one, patiently, with explanations and logic, tries to get them to stop talking nonsense.

[Number Six]

The ones I've seen have all had things in common:

Such as a major financial mishap. Bankruptcy, loss of a job, that sort of thing. They're desperate and looking for any way out.

Another thing they have in common is a readiness to blame others for their problems, chiefly government employees. If only they were in charge, it would all be better.

I've seen those two things also.

And I'm not sure which comes first. Is the readiness to blame others a result of the financial mishap (a form of denial), or did it pre-exist, and the financial mishap just brought it to the surface?

The question to me is what have been the triggers? Divorce, which in itself can create cascading traumas, untimely deaths of family, friends or associates?

Or what about other forms of narcissism? Have you read Lasch's book? I've been in enough 12 step meetings to hear the saying about pointing the finger with four fingers pointing back. If we are not very good at personal inventories and honesty then we are going to be looking for designated respositories for our flaws in others....

Since the name of this site stems from a Star Trek episode, it would be worth referencing one particular villian with serious narcissistic traits.



As usual, the episode was pretty good at describing both the causes and the cures of former Captain Garth's damaged personality.

[notorial dissent]

The TPs/Sovruns/birfers all seem afflicted with the mental illness of perseveration, where they will not give up saying the same nonsense no matter how many times one, patiently, with explanations and logic, tries to get them to stop talking nonsense.

It's not that so much as the fact that even after being beaten about the head and shoulders repeatedly with the clue by four they still don't get it and keep right on repeating the same self defeating destructive behaviors that kind of gives them away.

[ArthurWankspittle]

The TPs/Sovruns/birfers all seem afflicted with the mental illness of perseveration, where they will not give up saying the same nonsense no matter how many times one, patiently, with explanations and logic, tries to get them to stop talking nonsense.

Is that like "fusion" where delusional beliefs merge with normal beliefs to the point that the sufferer combines the two and can't separate them?

[Kestrel]

Perseveration - that's a new word for me. I had to look it up, and it describes them perfectly.

- the repetition of a particular response, such as a word, phrase, or gesture, despite the absence or cessation of a stimulus
- the inability to switch ideas along with the social context, as evidenced by the repetition of words or gestures after they have ceased to be socially relevant or appropriate
- obsessive hyperfocus and persistence in reinvestigating an issue, long after it has been fully explored and discussed to a point of resolution

[grixit]

That's a strong example of a neat Latin usage. The past participle of a verb is turned into a new verb in its own right with the meaning of continuous or repetitive operation of the stem verb. For instance "pello" means "beat", so "pulso" means "beat-beat-beat".

We carry these into English because they are so useful. In this case if you "persevere" it means you're determined, plucky, you stick to it. But if you "perseverate" it means you're persevering beyond the point of reason.

[Chados]

In my response above I'm speaking of the ones I've personally encountered...and prosecuted. In the de facto court, where we usually end up throwing their de facto butts into our de facto jail.

[grixit]

But their de jure selves remain free and frolicking with the fairies and unicorns.

[Chaetognath]

I've noticed a few common themes.

One is an affiliation with an extreme branch of a more common belief system. Examples that immediately occur to me are:

- extreme millenarian Christian belief systems, such as Baptist, Evangelical, or Pentecostal churches
- more extreme branches of the "Tea Party" movement
- Black liberation and Black Muslim groups (ie. Nation of Islam)
- old-school 60's leftist affiliations
- racist/financial conspiracy affiliation, often associated with 9/11 denial

I have observed that individual gurus then market their "get stuff free/do what you want" schemes from within those contexts. For example, the classic Sovereign Citizen gurus target the Tea Party communities. Gurus who emphasize "one world governments" go for persons who are predisposed to seeing Satan's domain on this Earth. The urban black extremes are targeted by Moorish Law marketers.

I am more familiar with the Canadian groups of this kind, and it's pretty clear that the Church of the Ecumenical Redemption International is nothing more than a group of hippies pretending to be King James Bible literalists. Eldon Warman of Detax Canada appeals to the racist end of the spectrum. Robert Menard of the World Freeman Society seems to appear and speak more often than not at 9/11 denial groups.

So I think that's an ingredient in these groups; you take a pre-existing but fringe community, and market the same old anti-obligation/anti-state concepts in a costume that meets the group's preconceptions.

I note others have observed that these persons are often in the fallout phase of some form of fiscal or personal failure. I too have also observed that, but I think it relates to a personality flaw as well, what has been named the Dunning–Kruger effect. There's a nice Wikipedia article on that phenomenon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

In brief, the effect relates to persons who are poor judges of competence, which has among other effects a failure to identify and recognize their own shortcomings. Put in the context of a typical affiliate to these groups, that leads to a succession of events:

1. The incompetent person overestimates their own skill, and engages in something that has minimal chance of success. As these persons overestimate their capacity, they tend to 'leap far', rather than take more conservative steps.

2. The effort fails, with catastrophic effect. Since the incompetent person is unaware of their incompetence, they look for an external source for the failure; somebody else is at fault.

3. In the search for scapegoats, the incompetent person finds that most others point the finger instead at the incompetent. Their 'conventional' explanations for his or her failure conflict with the incompetent's certainty in his/her own capacity, and as the incompetent is a poor judge of his or herself, external but dissonant explanations are rejected.

4. However, conspiracy-minded and extreme groups provide a different perspective. They say there are powerful but little known forces are in play, ready to manipulate and sabotage. That is attractive to the incompetent - now the failure is not his or her fault.

5. Financial and government conspiracy gurus market to these fringe groups. The incompetent now encounters authorities who not only confirm that the failures are not the incompetent's fault, but also is offered a chance to have secret knowledge that will the incompetent the basis to 'get back' at the oppressors, present themselves as empowered persons, and get free goodies.

6. The incompetent, unable to recognize the stupidity of these ideas, signs on, buys his or her collection of DVD's, books, documents, etc, and begins refusing to pay taxes, ignores motor vehicle regulations, and seizes vacant houses.

7. Catastrophe escalates, but the incompetent still fails to recognize his or her own idiocy. The spiral continues and deepens.

So I think those are the two ingredients. A predisposition to weird, conspiratorial, and fringe belief systems, and an inability to engage in process-related quality control. They are idiots who, sadly, are unaware they are idiots.

Chaetognath