Liberty Dollar Update

[Pottapaug1938]

Two quick reactions:

First, von Nuthouse is just like any other convict: "I didn't get convicted because I'm guilty. I got convicted because someone else screwed up/abused me/ignored the law/etc. etc. etc."

Second, von Nuthouse needs to do a better job researching his numismatic history. Private gold and silver coinage was outlawed because the U.S. Mint was finally able, by the mid-1850s, to supply the nation with an adequate supply of coins of a trusted purity and weight (before then, U.S. coinage was so scarce that it fell to foreign coins and private issues to take up the slack). Privately minted coins didn't have that reputation -- while some actually contained more precious metal than their nominal value required, others contained less (the Templeton Reid issues are one example); and today the incentive to short-weight a coin would be immense. We'd have to assay every coin we got. On top of that, the "replica" coins coming out of China, these days, are often good enough to fool unsuspecting buyers, which is partly why eBay shut down auctions of them. Once "mints" in China, North Korea and Iran got into the game, you'd never be able to fully trust any coin you got in change.

As for privately-issued currency, the PCGS message board and other numismatic sources can tell stories about how many businesses had to subscribe to a newsletter which kept them as up to date as possible on which private notes were counterfeit, which provate notes were issued by banks that were insolvent, and so on.

Of course, von Nuthouse never lets facts get in the way of his lengthy screeds; so why should he start now?

[NYGman]

and today the incentive to short-weight a coin would be immense. We'd have to assay every coin we got.

Not just today, if we go back to Roman times, gold and silver coins were often clipped or filled by unscrupulous people, and these clippings melted down, back in to the raw metal. Granted it would probably take some time to build up enough clippings to get any value, but this was a problem.

The other issue you pointed out about fakes, takes on added meaning, I believe only last week, fake tungsten filled gold bars were recently found in NYC. Tungsten being very close in weight to gold. These bars were hollowed out, and filled with tungsten prior to being sealed back up... I bet you could do the same thing with coins

[The Observer]

The real reason that I was convicted was not because of dumb jurors, it was because of the ineffectiveness of my trial attorneys, Dumb and Dumber.

How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless TD for a client.

[Pottapaug1938]

and today the incentive to short-weight a coin would be immense. We'd have to assay every coin we got.

Not just today, if we go back to Roman times, gold and silver coins were often clipped or filled by unscrupulous people, and these clippings melted down, back in to the raw metal. Granted it would probably take some time to build up enough clippings to get any value, but this was a problem.

The other issue you pointed out about fakes, takes on added meaning, I believe only last week, fake tungsten filled gold bars were recently found in NYC. Tungsten being very close in weight to gold. These bars were hollowed out, and filled with tungsten prior to being sealed back up... I bet you could do the same thing with coins

Coins in England had the same problem. I have a coin dated 1574 which started out as a shilling, but wound up the size of a fourpence. The famous "long cross" on the reverses of the coins were supposed to help guard against clipping, but since many of the strikes were off-center anyway, many people ignored short-armed crosses and went by weight when evaluating a coin. Clipping was a problem until the advent of steam coinage and collars to maintain proper coin shape.

[NYGman]

Clipping was a problem until the advent of steam coinage and collars to maintain proper coin shape.

I was actually going to say that I believed collars were used to counter this, but wasn't 100% sure, so omitted it... I was aware of the UK clipping of coins in later years (Later compared to Roman times), and actually some of the clipped roman coins I have seen were found in the UK, I guess old habits die hard...

[Pottapaug1938]

That is why the older silver and silver clad dimes, quarters, half-dollar and dollar coins have those ridged edges/rims - to cut down on clipping.

The first "Round Pound", in 1982, had an incuse "DECUS ET TUTAMEN" on the edge. This legend, meaning "an ornament and a safeguard", was taken from an earlier lettered-edge British coin, on which the legend appeared. If you had one of those coins, and there was no legend, you needed to check the weight, because it was almost certainly underweight due to normal, abnormal, natural or "artificial" wear.

[Gregg]

Actually, his sentencing attorney is Noell Tin. And Bernie's recent motions were all filed by the lawyer.

Oh my, isn't that Paul Burkes' lawyer (Zeek Rewards)?

[fortinbras]

The talk about a new Utah law authorizing Liberty Dollars and the like led me to find Utah HB 157, which was enacted in March 2012, but which is couched as a "someday, maybe" situation. IF the law changes to allow specie coinage in the US, THEN such coinage can be used in Utah - except nobody can be forced to accept specie coinage instead of good old US currency. The Utah law anticipates specie coins from other than the US Mint, and includes bullion. The Utah law talks about specie coinage become legalized by Act of Congress or by a court decision, but I actually think it will require an amendment to the US Constitution, specifically changing the terms of Art I, sec 8, clause 5 and Art I, sec. 10, clause 1.

[LPC]

Van Nuthouse makes the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/25/us/li ... -bars.html

[webhick]

From the article:

Mr. von NotHaus, traveling with his sons, Random and Xtra, to adventuresome locations, like Machu Picchu, read these seminal works.

For the love of god....

[Imalawman]

From the article:

Mr. von NotHaus, traveling with his sons, Random and Xtra, to adventuresome locations, like Machu Picchu, read these seminal works.

For the love of god....

wow. What a loon.

[notorial dissent]

Has actual reporting and fact checking gone out of style at the Times? That read like one of von Nutburt's press releases, probably because I think that is what the reporter did was copy one of them.

Obviously the reporter didn't bother to actually check any further on any of it when he wrote the article.

[Gregg]

Random von NotHaus....come on. Aside from being very much like a Douglas Adams thing, that's a name to inspire you to very careful about choosing the nursing home.

I guess that worked out though, he's getting the BOP.

the Rosa Parks of the constitutional currency movement,

Okay, Bernie isn't the only one smoking dope in that interview...

[The Observer]

From the article:

Mr. von NotHaus, traveling with his sons, Random and Xtra, to adventuresome locations, like Machu Picchu, read these seminal works.

For the love of god....

Ok, note to myself: If I ever decide to smoke my first joint, just don't do it before they ask me what names should be put on my kid's birth certificate.

[The Observer]

Has actual reporting and fact checking gone out of style at the Times? That read like one of von Nutburt's press releases, probably because I think that is what the reporter did was copy one of them.

Obviously the reporter didn't bother to actually check any further on any of it when he wrote the article.

Fact checking and reporting left the esteemed halls of the NYT a long time ago.

[fortinbras]

I recall when MEDIA BYPASS (=MB) started pimping for the Liberty Dollar. I had not been aware that Von NotHaus had actually merged his operation into MB, but it explains a lot. MB contained a half-page display ad for the LD (then going under the name NORFED) in every issue and some sort of puff piece (disguised as news) for NORFED in every odd-numbered issue. Supposedly buying into NORFED would bring the downfall of the Federal Reserve and the end of the IRS, no explanation of how.

Contrary to the NYT article, yes, early on NORFED did describe its funny money as legal tender and as currency. A little calculation, checking one of the websites that dealt with investments in precious metals, showed that the NORFED price (in Federal Reserve Notes) for one of its drachma (which is what I called the LD) was nearly twice the purchase price of bullion silver of the same weight. Von NotHaus justified this by saying that the extra viggorish was to subsidize some operating expenses, including "research" -- except research was clearly something not being done. I'm the one who had to point NORFED's lawyer to 18 USC § 486 (churning out coins of precious metal - whether or not they resembled official Treasury coinage - as a form of "currency", is a crime of counterfeiting), at which point NORFED suddenly dialed back on some of its advertising claims. Some NORFED customers quickly discovered that they couldn't find anyone to accept the LD as payment, so they used their LDs to pay for the MB subscriptions - and MB announced it would no longer accept the LDs for subscription payment. After that, NORFED lost altitude real fast and there was a sort of palace coup at MB with a new editorial board, very much unaffiliated with NORFED, taking over and NORFED and LDs never again mentioned in MB, even in ads. MB shut down about a year later.

Unfortunately I gave away my collection of MB, but if you can find a complete run of it somewhere, you can follow the rise, peak, and decline of NORFED.

[Dezcad]

Van Nuthouse makes the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/25/us/li ... -bars.html

From the beginning of the article"

High above the cliff tops and the beach bars

(emphasis supplied)

Double entendre of the week nomination.

[LPC]

From the article:

Mr. von NotHaus, traveling with his sons, Random and Xtra, to adventuresome locations, like Machu Picchu, read these seminal works.

For the love of god....

Ah yes, the 60s.

A few memorable names given to children by celebrities:

1. Dweezil
2. Moon Unit (Dweezil's sister)
3. god (small "g" of course; wouldn't want to be presumptuous)

My own favorite family name is my great-great-great grandmother's given name: Experience. Not Faith, Charity, Virtue, or even Hope, but Experience. (Apparently, she went by "Peri" to friends and family.)

I wanted to name my daughter "Experience." My wife wouldn't even talk about it. Just glared at me every time I mentioned it.

[Gregg]

I have a cousin Crissy whose real name is Christmas Eve.

[Famspear]

I have a cousin Crissy whose real name is Christmas Eve.

In terms of naming a girl, I think that's pretty creative, actually.