A state unto themselves

[LDE]

The Feds probably think a bad outcome from storming the Browns' residence would incite militia activity, as did the disasters at Ruby Ridge and Waco. But it seems to me the current situation is giving aid and comfort to wingnuts of all kinds. If the Browns are allowed to continue their effective secession from the U.S., isn't that also likely to inspire other right anarchists to erect fortresses, stockpile arms, and create their own enclaves of lawlessness?

[Joe Dirt]

I just gave an opinion urging restraint in another thread.

How about this? Designate the New Hampshire Hilltop as a free state, build a wall around a no man's land and charge high fees for delivery of goods and services into and tariffs for any exports coming out from the inside.

We could send Gene Chapman there to be president. If the stores empty and the crops fail, he at least could be eaten.

[Demosthenes]

I don't think the DOJ is too worried about militia involvement. It turns out that, over the years, Ed has pissed off just about every militia leader out there.

If it weren't for Fred Smart's blog, a few local Constitution Rangers, and the immature anarchy nimnuts at the free state project, Ed simply wouldn't have the following he has.

[The Operative]

If they refuse to go to prison, bring the prison to them. Build walls around it, place guards and start sending all convicted tax protestors there. I know, not really feasible, just a passing, silly thought.

[Duke2Earl]

I don't think any storming is necessary now or later. As I have said all along... secure the perimeter. This should have been done at the very beginning or at the latest when they shut off the outside utilities. No one enters and anyone who leaves gets arrested (if appropriate) or in any event cannot re-enter. Let's see how much these people really get along with each other. Block their phones... cut off their internet... isolate them... then we'll see what happens. Why they let these criminals call their own tune is beyond my comprehension.

[Weathervane]

If they refuse to go to prison, bring the prison to them. Build walls around it, place guards and start sending all convicted tax protestors there. I know, not really feasible, just a passing, silly thought.

Then after a few years of filling up with loonies, Aaron Russo can shoot a sci-fi thriller called "Escape From New Hampshire".

[Evil Squirrel Overlord]

If they refuse to go to prison, bring the prison to them. Build walls around it, place guards and start sending all convicted tax protestors there. I know, not really feasible, just a passing, silly thought.

Then after a few years of filling up with loonies, Aaron Russo can shoot a sci-fi thriller called "Escape From New Hampshire".

As long as a geriartic Kurt Russell is in it: I'm For it!

[Judge Roy Bean]

...If the Browns are allowed to continue their effective secession from the U.S., isn't that also likely to inspire other right anarchists to erect fortresses, stockpile arms, and create their own enclaves of lawlessness?

They already have.

[Demosthenes]

I don't think any storming is necessary now or later. As I have said all along... secure the perimeter. This should have been done at the very beginning or at the latest when they shut off the outside utilities. No one enters and anyone who leaves gets arrested (if appropriate) or in any event cannot re-enter. Let's see how much these people really get along with each other. Block their phones... cut off their internet... isolate them... then we'll see what happens. Why they let these criminals call their own tune is beyond my comprehension.

Securing the perimeter in Ruby Ridge cost roughly $1 million per day in 1993 dollars. Ed and Elaine have a huge store of dried foods, can realistically last more than a year with no outside input, have plenty of trees to burn for heat in the winter, and have wind and solar power for smaller needs.

They Marshals will only secure the entire perimeter when they get the ok to move in arrest the Browns.

[Demosthenes]

...If the Browns are allowed to continue their effective secession from the U.S., isn't that also likely to inspire other right anarchists to erect fortresses, stockpile arms, and create their own enclaves of lawlessness?

They already have.

According to Elaine, there are two more people about to do the same thing: one in Vermont, over a property tax issue, and one in Missouri, over federal income taxes.

[Weathervane]

If they refuse to go to prison, bring the prison to them. Build walls around it, place guards and start sending all convicted tax protestors there. I know, not really feasible, just a passing, silly thought.

Then after a few years of filling up with loonies, Aaron Russo can shoot a sci-fi thriller called "Escape From New Hampshire".

As long as a geriartic Kurt Russell is in it: I'm For it!

I'm picturing Tom Cruise and Bette Midler.

[Weathervane]

...If the Browns are allowed to continue their effective secession from the U.S., isn't that also likely to inspire other right anarchists to erect fortresses, stockpile arms, and create their own enclaves of lawlessness?

They already have.

According to Elaine, there are two more people about to do the same thing: one in Vermont, over a property tax issue, and one in Missouri, over federal income taxes.

And one in North Dakota over a tryst involving certain livestock.

[Evil Squirrel Overlord]

And one in North Dakota over a tryst involving certain livestock.

Um Link... Please let there be a link!!!!!

[Weathervane]

And one in North Dakota over a tryst involving certain livestock.

Um Link... Please let there be a link!!!!!

Sadly, I am link challenged. Several people have tried to coach me on "how to", but I must be more computer illiterate than I thought.

[The Observer]

Securing the perimeter in Ruby Ridge cost roughly $1 million per day in 1993 dollars. Ed and Elaine have a huge store of dried foods, can realistically last more than a year with no outside input, have plenty of trees to burn for heat in the winter, and have wind and solar power for smaller needs.

They Marshals will only secure the entire perimeter when they get the ok to move in arrest the Browns.

Comparing what happened on Ruby Ridge and what can be done at the Brown's place is comparing apples to oranges. The Weaver place was in rough, mountainous terrain with a situation that had escalated to a full-blown military siege operation, complete with snipers and the like.

Securing the perimeter for the Brown's residence doesn't need to go to the lengths or the costs that occurred in Idaho. We are talking about keeping observation posts, using electronic monitoring and making it hard for people to get into the Brown property, especially those with vehicles. It is not necessary to make hard for people to get out of the property, in fact that is what one wants - especially if it is the Browns that are trying to get out.

Money is already being spent to monitor the Browns, so you cannot avoid the cost. Far better to ramp it up so that there is some benefit associated with the monitoring rather than it turning into the "Charles In Charge" farce into which it is turning.

[Demosthenes]

Comparing what happened on Ruby Ridge and what can be done at the Brown's place is comparing apples to oranges. The Weaver place was in rough, mountainous terrain with a situation that had escalated to a full-blown military siege operation, complete with snipers and the like.

Which parts of this description don't apply to the Browns? As soon as the government escalate the situation (it came powerfully close to happening when the dog walker claimed they shot at him), the situation will become a full blown military siege operation, complete with snipers and the like.

Ed is far more heavily armed than the Weaver family ever was, and the odds of him using emplosives (and perhaps chemicals, he continued buying them in large quantities long after closing down his pest control company) is far higher. What makes it scarier is that, unlike Randy Weaver in 1992, Ed Brown wants to die.

[The Observer]

Which parts of this description don't apply to the Browns?

Well, for starters, how about the part that the Weaver shooting started because the feds went onto the property of the Weavers to get better surveillance? By doing so, the feds put themselves into risk of imminent contact with the patrolling that the Weavers and their friend had been doing of their property, a fact of which the agents had been aware.

I am not advocating invasison of the Brown property for any reason at this time. The dog-walker has proven he was lying about the situation. And that makes it even more imperative that the marshals set up a perimiter to keep troublemakers like Dogwalker from getting in and increasing the risk of triggering a shootout.

As for the rest of the situation, are you trying to tell me that the marshals have snipers set up and that the Brown residence is in rough mountainous terrain? Are you going to argue that a seige comparable to the 10-day Weaver siege is taking place right now?

[Demosthenes]

Well, for starters, how about the part that the Weaver shooting started because the feds went onto the property of the Weavers to get better surveillance?

Yep. That was a stupid mistake. Kind of like the one made when they bumped into Danny the Dog Walker. Because stuff like that happens, the Marshals had more than 100 people, including snipers, surveillance teams, bomb squads, police, and emergency response teams on hand that day, just to change the locks on a property 15 miles away. I bet that one day cost taxpayers more than the sales price the dental building will bring in (assuming Ed doesn't have it burned down first.)

By doing so, the feds put themselves into risk of imminent contact with the patrolling that the Weavers and their friend had been doing of their property, a fact of which the agents had been aware.

Yep. That whole day in June was a mistake.

At least the Feds didn't shoot the family dog like they did in the Weaver and the Gordon Kahl standoffs...

And that makes it even more imperative that the marshals set up a perimiter to keep troublemakers like Dogwalker from getting in and increasing the risk of triggering a shootout.

And there's no way to establish a perimeter without involving dozens (ifnot hundreds) of people and expensive equipment. Establishing a perimeter would also likely escalate the situation when Ed and/or followers lose their cool. Until they're given a green light to move in all the way, they can't move in half way. When you're trying to contain 110 acres of heavily wooded, mountainous terrain, it's all or none.

As for the rest of the situation, are you trying to tell me that the marshals have snipers set up and that the Brown residence is in rough mountainous terrain? Are you going to argue that a seige comparable to the 10-day Weaver siege is taking place right now?

Huh? That seige I described lasted for approximately four hours in mid June while they changed the locks on the dental building in Lebanon. They don't have the resources to do that kind of seige over a long term period. It would cost millions a day.

[The Observer]

Yep. That was a stupid mistake. Kind of like the one made when they bumped into Danny the Dog Walker. Because stuff like that happens, the Marshals had more than 100 people, including snipers, surveillance teams, bomb squads, police, and emergency response teams on hand that day, just to change the locks on a property 15 miles away.

I doubt the response was calculated based on the dogwalker incident as much as it was based on Ed's violent rhetoric over the last year and the marshals' determination that they wouldn't let an oversight on their part leave an opportunity for Ed and his supporters to cause harm.

I bet that one day cost taxpayers more than the sales price the dental building will bring in (assuming Ed doesn't have it burned down first.)

Sometimes the price of justice comes high - but I prefer justice rather than hand-holding or singing "Kum Ba Yah" with the enemy.

And there's no way to establish a perimeter without involving dozens (ifnot hundreds) of people and expensive equipment. Establishing a perimeter would also likely escalate the situation when Ed and/or followers lose their cool. Until they're given a green light to move in all the way, they can't move in half way. When you're trying to contain 110 acres of heavily wooded, mountainous terrain, it's all or none.

And the situation should not be calculated over what Ed and his followers are going to lose their cool. Given Ed's mental imbalance and his social animosity, he could lose his cool over the fact that the marshals didn't arrest the judge in his trial. Are the marshals going to have to anticipate every little thing that Ed might get upset about? It is impossible. The point of the perimiter is for observation with minimum intrusion and for preventing/detaining people who try to enter the property. It does not have to be a 100% containment, especially given the fact that most people aren't going to have the experience or knowhow of traversing and navigating woods to get to the Brown residence. And the fact that Ed may start shooting at any interlopers coming up to his house other than the road will be added incentive for the wannabe commando-types to restrain themselves from going off road.

Huh? That seige I described lasted for approximately four hours in mid June while they changed the locks on the dental building in Lebanon. They don't have the resources to do that kind of seige over a long term period. It would cost millions a day.

And again, I am not calling for a seige until such the marshals are ready to enter the property and arrest the Browns. I am calling for a stepup in the monitoring of the property and detaining of people entering or leaving the property - which is exactly what you have been in support of as well.

[Demosthenes]

I doubt the response was calculated based on the dogwalker incident as much as it was based on Ed's violent rhetoric over the last year and the marshals' determination that they wouldn't let an oversight on their part leave an opportunity for Ed and his supporters to cause harm.

No kidding...

Sometimes the price of justice comes high - but I prefer justice rather than hand-holding or singing "Kum Ba Yah" with the enemy.

No one is hand-holding or singing songs with Ed. They have shut down internet access, telephone service, electricity, gas, mail delivery, the post office box, and every single cell phone once they become aware of it.

They can't isolate Ed without risking a fell fledge attack, and they've been told not to attack.

This isn't rocket science; it's politics.

And the situation should not be calculated over what Ed and his followers are going to lose their cool.

Of course it should. Playing offense is more powerful than defense in a law enforcement situation. The Marshals should attempt to arrest Ed on their schedule, not Ed's.

Given Ed's mental imbalance and his social animosity, he could lose his cool over the fact that the marshals didn't arrest the judge in his trial.

Which is why Ed and followers are being scrutinized on a minute by minute basis.

Are the marshals going to have to anticipate every little thing that Ed might get upset about? It is impossible.

You seem to be arguing just to argue. Until the Marshals are ready to take Ed, it would be stupid for them to escalate the situation. It's really that simple.

The point of the perimiter is for observation with minimum intrusion and for preventing/detaining people who try to enter the property.

You don't need to establish a perimeter to do effective surveillance in modern times.

It does not have to be a 100% containment, especially given the fact that most people aren't going to have the experience or knowhow of traversing and navigating woods to get to the Brown residence.

Experience in traversing and navigating woods isn't a skill set needed. Walking through the woods towards the house is all that's needed, assuming you know where his booby traps are.

And the fact that Ed may start shooting at any interlopers coming up to his house other than the road will be added incentive for the wannabe commando-types to restrain themselves from going off road.

All you have to do is call the house first. As long as the last people who came in brought disposable cell phones, the system works.

I am calling for a stepup in the monitoring of the property and detaining of people entering or leaving the property - which is exactly what you have been in support of as well.

Why are you assuming the property isn't being monitored now?